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Norway follow up

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/26/2011 6:27:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So the guy who perpetrated the mass killings is wanting to explain why, he wants a forum to grandstand his motives for what he did, and the government is denying him that.

A part of me understands that this cannot be a mode of self expression, a way of gaining attention to one's cause so thus should be denied this platform, but...another side of me wants to hear what he has to say, and is slightly uncomfortable about anyone being stifled in their voice as a matter of procedure.

Thoughts?
marcuscato
Posts: 738
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7/26/2011 7:34:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
He will probably be able to express himself through his lawyer. I couldnt find a link to this particular news item- could you provide one?
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/26/2011 7:46:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/26/2011 7:34:16 AM, marcuscato wrote:
He will probably be able to express himself through his lawyer. I couldnt find a link to this particular news item- could you provide one?

Actually, i was basing this on a conversation from last night, and don't have a source. I may be wrong because the person that was speaking to me is notorious for saying things with nothing to back up her claims. Irritating really.
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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7/26/2011 11:13:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
F*ck what he has to say. Killing people is not the mode of obtaining the right to purvey your beliefs. We nonetheless celebrate people who commit mass murders anyway... I believe that we shouldn't even report on it, unless there is some reason to believe that we're in danger.
Rob
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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7/26/2011 11:15:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If he has something to say he can get a debate.org account like the rest of us and create threads to be scrutinized.

"NorwayKiller001"
Rob
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/26/2011 11:30:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/26/2011 6:27:44 AM, innomen wrote:
So the guy who perpetrated the mass killings is wanting to explain why, he wants a forum to grandstand his motives for what he did, and the government is denying him that.

Good. Giving public forums to people that commit mass murder only allows mass murder to be viewed as an acceptable means of getting a stage for your ideas. People should only be given public forums based on the merit of their ideas, not that they killed a lot of people.


A part of me understands that this cannot be a mode of self expression, a way of gaining attention to one's cause so thus should be denied this platform, but...another side of me wants to hear what he has to say, and is slightly uncomfortable about anyone being stifled in their voice as a matter of procedure.

He can express him views to the judge and jury, but he has no right to a public voice to be broadcast to the world. Just like I have no right to walk into a local TV station and demand air time to say what I think about politics (nor should I have that right).


Thoughts?

Occationally.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/27/2011 12:19:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Times like these I'm tempted to support death penalty. I just remind myself I was an anarchist once who contemplated going on capitalist-shooting sprees. *sarcasm*
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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7/27/2011 3:21:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/27/2011 12:22:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Everyone should be allowed a voice, even mass murderers.

Allowed a voice? Yes.
Given a platform to preach from? No.
Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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7/27/2011 7:03:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/27/2011 3:21:11 PM, feverish wrote:
At 7/27/2011 12:22:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Everyone should be allowed a voice, even mass murderers.

Allowed a voice? Yes.
Given a platform to preach from? No.

Why not?
seraine
Posts: 734
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7/27/2011 9:34:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/26/2011 6:27:44 AM, innomen wrote:
So the guy who perpetrated the mass killings is wanting to explain why, he wants a forum to grandstand his motives for what he did, and the government is denying him that.

A part of me understands that this cannot be a mode of self expression, a way of gaining attention to one's cause so thus should be denied this platform, but...another side of me wants to hear what he has to say, and is slightly uncomfortable about anyone being stifled in their voice as a matter of procedure.

Thoughts?

Is he demanding a public forum without doing anything to earn/buy a public forum? If he's like "yo govt dudes. I wants a forum so gives me a forum" then no. But if he wants to go along the normal route for acquiring a public forum, then I am leaning yes because I think as long it doesn't do any harm (i.e. Telling people to kill more people). Think of it like he has the right to say what he wants as long as he doesn't yell fire in a crowded theater.

Actually, I was looking at his manifesto, and it has the complete guide to making bomb, including materials needed and ratios, best methods and instructions, videos, optimal amount of people in order to be clandestine, etc. Should the govt be able to destroy all sites with bomb making instructions?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/27/2011 9:36:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/27/2011 3:21:11 PM, feverish wrote:
At 7/27/2011 12:22:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Everyone should be allowed a voice, even mass murderers.

Allowed a voice? Yes.
Given a platform to preach from? No.

Ditto.

Everyone should have a voice, but he should not be given special treatment and a platform for that voice.

Put him in jail all his life (though I'd support execution) and let him tell all the other prisoners about his views.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/27/2011 9:41:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/27/2011 9:34:25 PM, seraine wrote:
At 7/26/2011 6:27:44 AM, innomen wrote:
So the guy who perpetrated the mass killings is wanting to explain why, he wants a forum to grandstand his motives for what he did, and the government is denying him that.

A part of me understands that this cannot be a mode of self expression, a way of gaining attention to one's cause so thus should be denied this platform, but...another side of me wants to hear what he has to say, and is slightly uncomfortable about anyone being stifled in their voice as a matter of procedure.

Thoughts?

Is he demanding a public forum without doing anything to earn/buy a public forum? If he's like "yo govt dudes. I wants a forum so gives me a forum" then no. But if he wants to go along the normal route for acquiring a public forum, then I am leaning yes because I think as long it doesn't do any harm (i.e. Telling people to kill more people). Think of it like he has the right to say what he wants as long as he doesn't yell fire in a crowded theater.

Is killing a bunch of people a "normal route for acquiring a public forum?"



Actually, I was looking at his manifesto, and it has the complete guide to making bomb, including materials needed and ratios, best methods and instructions, videos, optimal amount of people in order to be clandestine, etc. Should the govt be able to destroy all sites with bomb making instructions?

If a site shows people how to make a bomb and encourages them to make bombs and use them against people, yes, the government should be able to shut it down.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
seraine
Posts: 734
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7/27/2011 9:50:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/27/2011 9:41:11 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/27/2011 9:34:25 PM, seraine wrote:
At 7/26/2011 6:27:44 AM, innomen wrote:
So the guy who perpetrated the mass killings is wanting to explain why, he wants a forum to grandstand his motives for what he did, and the government is denying him that.

A part of me understands that this cannot be a mode of self expression, a way of gaining attention to one's cause so thus should be denied this platform, but...another side of me wants to hear what he has to say, and is slightly uncomfortable about anyone being stifled in their voice as a matter of procedure.

Thoughts?

Is he demanding a public forum without doing anything to earn/buy a public forum? If he's like "yo govt dudes. I wants a forum so gives me a forum" then no. But if he wants to go along the normal route for acquiring a public forum, then I am leaning yes because I think as long it doesn't do any harm (i.e. Telling people to kill more people). Think of it like he has the right to say what he wants as long as he doesn't yell fire in a crowded theater.

Is killing a bunch of people a "normal route for acquiring a public forum?"

Not like that...

I mean like buying the domain space and crap like that. As long as his words don't hurt anyone and he actually gets it (the forum) rather than having the govt give him it, go for it.




Actually, I was looking at his manifesto, and it has the complete guide to making bomb, including materials needed and ratios, best methods and instructions, videos, optimal amount of people in order to be clandestine, etc. Should the govt be able to destroy all sites with bomb making instructions?

If a site shows people how to make a bomb and encourages them to make bombs and use them against people, yes, the government should be able to shut it down.
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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7/28/2011 2:24:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why does Norway even bother having a justice system?

The living conditions in this Norweigan prison are nicer than my own.

Which gets me thinking, robbing a bank in Norway is a win win situation.

Whether I get caught or get away I'm better off than I was before.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
seraine
Posts: 734
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7/28/2011 2:01:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/28/2011 2:24:48 AM, quarterexchange wrote:


Why does Norway even bother having a justice system?

The living conditions in this Norweigan prison are nicer than my own.

Which gets me thinking, robbing a bank in Norway is a win win situation.

Whether I get caught or get away I'm better off than I was before.

They focus more on rehabilatation rather than retribution. I am thinking that it's superior to the American system, though there could be benefits to integrating American prison ideas into theirs.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/28/2011 2:11:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/28/2011 2:01:45 PM, seraine wrote:
At 7/28/2011 2:24:48 AM, quarterexchange wrote:
Why does Norway even bother having a justice system?

The living conditions in this Norweigan prison are nicer than my own.

Which gets me thinking, robbing a bank in Norway is a win win situation.

Whether I get caught or get away I'm better off than I was before.

They focus more on rehabilatation rather than retribution. I am thinking that it's superior to the American system, though there could be benefits to integrating American prison ideas into theirs.

Superior how? In carrying out justice, which is really the PURPOSE of prison, are they superior? Rehabilitation is nice and probably makes you feel better about the whole situation, but it is not the primary purpose of prison.
seraine
Posts: 734
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7/28/2011 10:11:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/28/2011 2:11:58 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/28/2011 2:01:45 PM, seraine wrote:
At 7/28/2011 2:24:48 AM, quarterexchange wrote:
Why does Norway even bother having a justice system?

The living conditions in this Norweigan prison are nicer than my own.

Which gets me thinking, robbing a bank in Norway is a win win situation.

Whether I get caught or get away I'm better off than I was before.

They focus more on rehabilatation rather than retribution. I am thinking that it's superior to the American system, though there could be benefits to integrating American prison ideas into theirs.

Superior how? In carrying out justice, which is really the PURPOSE of prison, are they superior? Rehabilitation is nice and probably makes you feel better about the whole situation, but it is not the primary purpose of prison.

Given that rehabilitation leads to less people committing the crime again, I would say that it is generally superior to just punishing them.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/28/2011 10:33:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/28/2011 10:11:26 PM, seraine wrote:
At 7/28/2011 2:11:58 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/28/2011 2:01:45 PM, seraine wrote:
At 7/28/2011 2:24:48 AM, quarterexchange wrote:
Why does Norway even bother having a justice system?

The living conditions in this Norweigan prison are nicer than my own.

Which gets me thinking, robbing a bank in Norway is a win win situation.

Whether I get caught or get away I'm better off than I was before.

They focus more on rehabilatation rather than retribution. I am thinking that it's superior to the American system, though there could be benefits to integrating American prison ideas into theirs.

Superior how? In carrying out justice, which is really the PURPOSE of prison, are they superior? Rehabilitation is nice and probably makes you feel better about the whole situation, but it is not the primary purpose of prison.

Given that rehabilitation leads to less people committing the crime again, I would say that it is generally superior to just punishing them.

Plus Norway does have a low murder rate compared to the US. Although correlation doesn't imply causation, I'm just stating that it doesn't seem to be much of an incentive in Norway to kill others to get into their prisons.

Although, a prison system like that wouldn't work in the US, considering the amount of homeless and poverty that exists in the US, there would likely be greater incentives to go to prison if they were Norway style.
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quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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7/28/2011 10:51:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.npr.org...

Just throwing this in the mix.

Man robbed a bank for 1$ to purposely get caught to get healthcare and shelter in a U.S. prison.

Following up on what Kermit said, a lot more crimes, and perhaps more violent ones, would be going on in the U.S. if our prisons were like Norway's seeing that our prisons don't even allow prisoners such basic necessities such as personal plasma screen Tv's, swims in the ocean, nature walks, gourmet meals, etc.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.