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London Riots

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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8/8/2011 8:25:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So, I'm just a little confused about what's happening here. Police shot an alleged gangster to death who was alleged to have shot at them. The community is so enraged that one of the worse riots in a long time in England has broken out.

Despite your personal feelings, what exactly do these rioters believe happened? What is the context here?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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8/8/2011 8:29:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ok, I just found this:

Sandra Laville, Paul Lewis, Vikram Dodd and Caroline Davies
The Guardian, Monday 8 August 2011
Article history

Doubts have emerged over whether Mark Duggan, whose death at the hands of police sparked the weekend's Tottenham riots, was killed during an exchange of fire .

The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on a bullet, found lodged in a police radio worn by an officer during Thursday's incident, suggested it was police issue – and therefore had not been fired by Duggan.

Initial reports from the IPCC were that during an apparent exchange of fire police officers from C019 fired two shots and Duggan died at the scene. The suggestion was that officers could have come under fire from a minicab carrying Duggan. Much of this assumption came from the fact that a bullet had lodged in a police radio worn by an officer at the scene – raising speculation he might have been fired at from the vehicle. A non-police issue handgun was also recovered at the scene where Duggan was shot dead in Ferry Road.

The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use. It is likely to fuel anger on the streets of Tottenham and elsewhere in London if it provides evidence that officers were not under attack at the time they opened fire on Duggan.

The IPCC said on Sunday: "We await further forensic analysis to enable us to have a fuller and more comprehensive account of what shots were discharged, the sequence of events and what exactly happened. In the meantime we would request people are patient while we seek to find answers to the questions raised by this incident."

http://www.guardian.co.uk...

Extremely suspicious in the least.
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fnord
Joseph_Mengele
Posts: 388
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8/8/2011 10:56:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/8/2011 8:25:22 PM, FREEDO wrote:
So, I'm just a little confused about what's happening here. Police shot an alleged gangster to death who was alleged to have shot at them. The community is so enraged that one of the worse riots in a long time in England has broken out.

Despite your personal feelings, what exactly do these rioters believe happened? What is the context here?

Was the alleged gangster a "minority"? Not that it matters at all, just wondering.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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8/8/2011 11:19:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/8/2011 10:56:55 PM, Joseph_Mengele wrote:
At 8/8/2011 8:25:22 PM, FREEDO wrote:
So, I'm just a little confused about what's happening here. Police shot an alleged gangster to death who was alleged to have shot at them. The community is so enraged that one of the worse riots in a long time in England has broken out.

Despite your personal feelings, what exactly do these rioters believe happened? What is the context here?

Was the alleged gangster a "minority"? Not that it matters at all, just wondering.

Yes.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
mattrodstrom
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8/9/2011 1:07:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/8/2011 10:56:55 PM, Joseph_Mengele wrote:
Was the alleged gangster a "minority"? Not that it matters at all, just wondering.

It clearly matters to you now don't it.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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8/9/2011 2:08:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't know a whole lot about British society or law, specifically in comparison to the U.S., but what about the bullet would cause the investigator to believe that it was "police issued"? I know that in the U.K. gun laws are more strict than the U.S. in general but I haven't really researched British law on the subject.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
Rockylightning
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8/9/2011 2:41:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/8/2011 11:19:07 PM, Lasagna wrote:
The guy was trouble. The police are trouble. There was trouble.

Recipe for disaster: Half cup of gangster, whole cup of police. Cook on low heat for 5 years and crank up heat for thirty minutes for glazed riots.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/9/2011 7:39:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
This has been cooking away for decades, I did not realise it was this bad though. This is what you get when you allow unrestricted immigration, an absurd welfare state, the dilution of the police force and a few people in ivory towers preaching multiculturalism.

From the speeches of politicians and police chiefs, none of them have the slightest idea of anything.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
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8/9/2011 9:31:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Another reason I support security cameras everywhere (at least in public), so when something goes on like this, you can just flip to the camera and time and watch exactly what went down.

I like that more and more police are getting body cameras as well as the police cameras, so when something does happen, we can see exactly what the police see, not just what their car sees (with them yelling and shotting off screen).
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david567
Posts: 19
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8/9/2011 11:00:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Tonight 16,000 police officers will be around London, if it goes wrong and there's too much violence, there is a chance the military will be called in.
Religious but not spiritual : )
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2011 11:04:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 11:00:53 AM, david567 wrote:
Tonight 16,000 police officers will be around London, if it goes wrong and there's too much violence, there is a chance the military will be called in.

Darn, I wish I could be there with my camera.

I've been to a few protests and gatherings, but what I really want to do, is go to a big one (or at least long, time-wise) and interview a bunch of people. Then edit the film to make two different cuts, one to be edited to make the people of the protest look like complete baffoons (hopefully with some racism or other discrimination features) and one to be edited to make the people look like wise everyday people that know exactly what they are talking about and know all the facts and what not.
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Ore_Ele
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8/9/2011 11:32:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rush Limbaugh has an interesting view. He thinks that the reason for the riots is because all the rioters are whiney liberals that want to take out their childish anger on the people that actually work.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Joseph_Mengele
Posts: 388
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8/9/2011 3:20:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/8/2011 11:19:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 8/8/2011 10:56:55 PM, Joseph_Mengele wrote:
At 8/8/2011 8:25:22 PM, FREEDO wrote:
So, I'm just a little confused about what's happening here. Police shot an alleged gangster to death who was alleged to have shot at them. The community is so enraged that one of the worse riots in a long time in England has broken out.

Despite your personal feelings, what exactly do these rioters believe happened? What is the context here?

Was the alleged gangster a "minority"? Not that it matters at all, just wondering.

Yes.

I knew it.
Joseph_Mengele
Posts: 388
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8/9/2011 3:22:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 7:39:27 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
This has been cooking away for decades, I did not realise it was this bad though. This is what you get when you allow unrestricted immigration, an absurd welfare state, the dilution of the police force and a few people in ivory towers preaching multiculturalism.
Hey, finally someone on this website who realizes the disastrous effects of multiculturalism!

From the speeches of politicians and police chiefs, none of them have the slightest idea of anything.

Especially the ones who support multiculturalism and unrestricted immigration.
ritz2004
Posts: 16
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8/23/2011 10:55:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At the end of the day most of the damage, particularly in Manchester and Birmingham, was caused by looters whose sole purpose was to damage peoples property and take what they could. Guess everybody knows now but just thought I should point it out. Although what the initial rioters did was awful, the looters make me feel more sick. Especially those guys who were pretending to help that bloke that had been hurt whilst robbing him. That was just evil.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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8/23/2011 12:05:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 10:55:08 AM, ritz2004 wrote:
At the end of the day most of the damage, particularly in Manchester and Birmingham, was caused by looters whose sole purpose was to damage peoples property and take what they could. Guess everybody knows now but just thought I should point it out. Although what the initial rioters did was awful, the looters make me feel more sick. Especially those guys who were pretending to help that bloke that had been hurt whilst robbing him. That was just evil.

I agree we should condemn these acts of senseless violence and that the footage of that bloke robbing the chap who'd been hurt was particularly sickening.

That said, although the rioters might not have made a conscious connection between the Tory-led coalition's cutbacks and the mass protests – their targets were not politically strategic – but the savage cuts in public services disproportionately affect the most disadvantaged members of our society and many youngsters in the inner-cities are living hopeless existences and may have felt they had nothing to lose by taking to the streets.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/23/2011 4:13:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 12:05:18 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 8/23/2011 10:55:08 AM, ritz2004 wrote:
At the end of the day most of the damage, particularly in Manchester and Birmingham, was caused by looters whose sole purpose was to damage peoples property and take what they could. Guess everybody knows now but just thought I should point it out. Although what the initial rioters did was awful, the looters make me feel more sick. Especially those guys who were pretending to help that bloke that had been hurt whilst robbing him. That was just evil.

I agree we should condemn these acts of senseless violence and that the footage of that bloke robbing the chap who'd been hurt was particularly sickening.

That said, although the rioters might not have made a conscious connection between the Tory-led coalition's cutbacks and the mass protests – their targets were not politically strategic – but the savage cuts in public services disproportionately affect the most disadvantaged members of our society and many youngsters in the inner-cities are living hopeless existences and may have felt they had nothing to lose by taking to the streets.

The cuts did not cause the riots, the riots were caused by nearly 60 years of mismanagement.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Greyparrot
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8/23/2011 4:17:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's not like the government can force poor people to work and have productive meaningful lives.

You can't blame the government for the riots.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/23/2011 4:23:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:17:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
It's not like the government can force poor people to work and have productive meaningful lives.

It can, it just doesn't.


You can't blame the government for the riots.

Some people will blame the government for anything that is wrong with their lives (and some will blame everything on greedy capitalist pig dogs).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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8/23/2011 4:41:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I went back home at the weekend and I'm pleased to report that my place remains intact!

And as for blaming the Government, I make no apologies - they were fairly elected to run the county better than their predecessors - a duty they have manifestly failed to discharge.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/23/2011 4:44:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:41:16 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I went back home at the weekend and I'm pleased to report that my place remains intact!

And as for blaming the Government, I make no apologies - they were fairly elected to run the county better than their predecessors - a duty they have manifestly failed to discharge.

You are blaiming the current Government for every mistake each successive Government has incurred since the war. How do you even expect them to have undone the damage of the past 13 years of Blair/Brown treason, let alone decades of mismanagement!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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8/23/2011 4:55:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:44:56 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:41:16 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I went back home at the weekend and I'm pleased to report that my place remains intact!

And as for blaming the Government, I make no apologies - they were fairly elected to run the county better than their predecessors - a duty they have manifestly failed to discharge.

You are blaiming the current Government for every mistake each successive Government has incurred since the war. How do you even expect them to have undone the damage of the past 13 years of Blair/Brown treason, let alone decades of mismanagement!

If the Government had collected the taxes we are all owed from the likes of Phillip Green and other billionaire tax avoiders, there would be no need to deprive the most venerable members of society of the vital public services they rely upon.

True enough, Blair and Brown failed to take the opportunity to crackdown on filthy rich tax cheats though.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/24/2011 4:49:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/23/2011 4:55:41 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:44:56 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:41:16 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I went back home at the weekend and I'm pleased to report that my place remains intact!

And as for blaming the Government, I make no apologies - they were fairly elected to run the county better than their predecessors - a duty they have manifestly failed to discharge.

You are blaiming the current Government for every mistake each successive Government has incurred since the war. How do you even expect them to have undone the damage of the past 13 years of Blair/Brown treason, let alone decades of mismanagement!

If the Government had collected the taxes we are all owed from the likes of Phillip Green and other billionaire tax avoiders, there would be no need to deprive the most venerable members of society of the vital public services they rely upon.

True enough, Blair and Brown failed to take the opportunity to crackdown on filthy rich tax cheats though.

There are two ways to avoid tax, fraud and clever accounting. I think you are conflating the two... which is odd because as a businessman yourself you probably employ at least one person to 'cheat' the system.

These riots were not caused by budget cuts, and even if they were Labour's scorched earth policy, and the delight they took in destroying Government finances on the eve of the handover of power may be a factor?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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8/24/2011 12:27:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/24/2011 4:49:46 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:55:41 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:44:56 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2011 4:41:16 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I went back home at the weekend and I'm pleased to report that my place remains intact!

And as for blaming the Government, I make no apologies - they were fairly elected to run the county better than their predecessors - a duty they have manifestly failed to discharge.

You are blaiming the current Government for every mistake each successive Government has incurred since the war. How do you even expect them to have undone the damage of the past 13 years of Blair/Brown treason, let alone decades of mismanagement!

If the Government had collected the taxes we are all owed from the likes of Phillip Green and other billionaire tax avoiders, there would be no need to deprive the most venerable members of society of the vital public services they rely upon.

True enough, Blair and Brown failed to take the opportunity to crackdown on filthy rich tax cheats though.

There are two ways to avoid tax, fraud and clever accounting. I think you are conflating the two... which is odd because as a businessman yourself you probably employ at least one person to 'cheat' the system.

These riots were not caused by budget cuts, and even if they were Labour's scorched earth policy, and the delight they took in destroying Government finances on the eve of the handover of power may be a factor?

I was quite careful to make the distinction between tax avoidance (legal) and tax evasion (illegal).

The point is the loopholes that allow very wealthy people to avoid tax should be closed and the HMRC should go after tax evaders with the same vigour as the DWP go after benefit cheats.
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