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Someone that actually mattered died

s0m31john
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7/6/2009 5:09:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Robert S. McNamara

McNamara served as secretary of defense during the Vietnam war under presidents Kennedy and Johnson.

http://www.wcbs880.com...

If you haven't seen his documentary "Fog of War" I highly suggest it.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/6/2009 5:13:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I didn't know about him, but now I want to see Fog of War.

And these people haven't really died. They've been abducted by aliens. This "dying" is a big government cover up.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/6/2009 5:13:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/6/2009 5:13:27 PM, wjmelements wrote:
And these people haven't really died. They've been abducted by aliens. This "dying" is a big government cover up.

jk, btw.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Octavian
Posts: 5
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7/6/2009 5:17:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It seems as soon as someone dies everybody has to love and respect them. McNamara was responsible for so many deaths and lives ruined.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/6/2009 6:11:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/6/2009 5:17:03 PM, Octavian wrote:
It seems as soon as someone dies everybody has to love and respect them. McNamara was responsible for so many deaths and lives ruined.

True, but he also was a very smart man who saw the error of what he had done in a later life. Plus, have you never heard of not to speak ill of the dead?
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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7/6/2009 6:49:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/6/2009 5:17:03 PM, Octavian wrote:
It seems as soon as someone dies everybody has to love and respect them. McNamara was responsible for so many deaths and lives ruined.

Watch The Fog of War and it will change your view on him. I don't support what he did but it's rare to see someone like him talk about what he did and admit the mistakes he made.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/7/2009 7:51:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I would say that Michael Jackson mattered more than McNamara.

Our world would be more different without MJ than without McNamara.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Xer
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7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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7/7/2009 10:24:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/7/2009 7:51:48 PM, Nags wrote:
I would say that Michael Jackson mattered more than McNamara.

Our world would be more different without MJ than without McNamara.

So you're saying some pop music is more important and mattered more than the Vietnam war?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

***Just google *michael jackson jackie robinson* and you will see exactly what I mean.

At 7/7/2009 10:24:51 PM, s0m31john wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:51:48 PM, Nags wrote:
I would say that Michael Jackson mattered more than McNamara.

Our world would be more different without MJ than without McNamara.

So you're saying some pop music is more important and mattered more than the Vietnam war?

Would the world be any different if John Q. Smith was Secretary of Defense instead of McNamara? Seriously...?
patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/8/2009 4:12:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

...

It go from "music's Jackie Robinson" to "MTV's Jackie Robinson," eh? Uh, alright....
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/8/2009 5:06:35 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/8/2009 4:12:48 AM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

...

It go from "music's Jackie Robinson" to "MTV's Jackie Robinson," eh? Uh, alright....

That was the name of the article... eh? Uh, alright....
-fyi- MTV=music television... eh? Uh, alright....

---From googling *michael jackson jackie robinson* the first 5 headlines are:
MTV's Jackie Robinson
Commentary: Jackson was the Jackie Robinson of MTV
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson of music videos
The Jackie Robinson Of Music
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson Of The Music Business
-eh? Uh, alright....
iamadragon
Posts: 157
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7/8/2009 6:19:42 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
HAHAHA, sorry Nags, your post made it seem as if you were saying neither Jackson nor Robinson had much of an impact, not that they both had impacts.
ccstate4peat
Posts: 2,022
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7/8/2009 9:21:41 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
This thread got away from its original purpose, to talk about someone who actually mattered that died. STEVE McNAIR!!!!! Not that other guy that I've never heard of, Steve McNair matters. Steve McNair gets a two day memorial, one more than Michael Jackson, AND it's in a football stadium. LP Field is way bigger than the Staples Center. For those of you who do not know you Steve McNair, go to ESPN, if you don't know what ESPN is, go crawl back into your little hole that nothing important can reach.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/8/2009 6:07:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/8/2009 5:06:35 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/8/2009 4:12:48 AM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

...

It go from "music's Jackie Robinson" to "MTV's Jackie Robinson," eh? Uh, alright....

That was the name of the article... eh? Uh, alright....
-fyi- MTV=music television... eh? Uh, alright....

---From googling *michael jackson jackie robinson* the first 5 headlines are:
MTV's Jackie Robinson
Commentary: Jackson was the Jackie Robinson of MTV
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson of music videos
The Jackie Robinson Of Music
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson Of The Music Business
-eh? Uh, alright....

Seriously, are you stupid? You said this:

"He's the Jackie Robinson of music..."

Before you posted any article. So nice try, but you fail.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/9/2009 2:12:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/8/2009 6:07:52 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 5:06:35 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/8/2009 4:12:48 AM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

...

It go from "music's Jackie Robinson" to "MTV's Jackie Robinson," eh? Uh, alright....

That was the name of the article... eh? Uh, alright....
-fyi- MTV=music television... eh? Uh, alright....

---From googling *michael jackson jackie robinson* the first 5 headlines are:
MTV's Jackie Robinson
Commentary: Jackson was the Jackie Robinson of MTV
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson of music videos
The Jackie Robinson Of Music
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson Of The Music Business
-eh? Uh, alright....

Seriously, are you stupid? You said this:

"He's the Jackie Robinson of music..."

Before you posted any article. So nice try, but you fail.

How do I fail? The articles backed up my point.

So nice try, but you fail.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/9/2009 3:00:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/9/2009 2:12:12 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/8/2009 6:07:52 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 5:06:35 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/8/2009 4:12:48 AM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

...

It go from "music's Jackie Robinson" to "MTV's Jackie Robinson," eh? Uh, alright....

That was the name of the article... eh? Uh, alright....
-fyi- MTV=music television... eh? Uh, alright....

---From googling *michael jackson jackie robinson* the first 5 headlines are:
MTV's Jackie Robinson
Commentary: Jackson was the Jackie Robinson of MTV
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson of music videos
The Jackie Robinson Of Music
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson Of The Music Business
-eh? Uh, alright....

Seriously, are you stupid? You said this:

"He's the Jackie Robinson of music..."

Before you posted any article. So nice try, but you fail.

How do I fail? The articles backed up my point.

So nice try, but you fail.

At 7/9/2009 2:12:12 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/8/2009 6:07:52 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 5:06:35 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/8/2009 4:12:48 AM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

...

It go from "music's Jackie Robinson" to "MTV's Jackie Robinson," eh? Uh, alright....

That was the name of the article... eh? Uh, alright....
-fyi- MTV=music television... eh? Uh, alright....

---From googling *michael jackson jackie robinson* the first 5 headlines are:
MTV's Jackie Robinson
Commentary: Jackson was the Jackie Robinson of MTV
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson of music videos
The Jackie Robinson Of Music
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson Of The Music Business
-eh? Uh, alright....

Seriously, are you stupid? You said this:

"He's the Jackie Robinson of music..."

Before you posted any article. So nice try, but you fail.

How do I fail? The articles backed up my point.

So nice try, but you fail.

...

Can you even read?

You claimed before any articles were posted that Jackson was music's Jackie Robinson. You then claimed he was MTV's Jackie Robinson. Two totally different claims.

I inquired about the former; I don't care about the latter, seeing as MTV is irrelevant to me.

Proof:

At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...

<" He's the Jackie Robinson of music...">

Which was then followed by:

At 7/8/2009 3:39:58 AM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:49:48 PM, patsox834 wrote:
At 7/7/2009 9:38:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/7/2009 8:00:52 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/7/2009 7:53:37 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Whose world?

What was MJ's unique contribution to music anyway? Someone directed me to wikipedia, they say he "transformed" this and that, without saying how. It's like Obama wrote his obituary.

He's the Jackie Robinson of music...
Whatchoo talking about? Black musicians had been important for quite a while. It's called jazz.

Not only jazz, but how about the blues?

And even in rock and roll -- I hear that "Hendrix" guy was kinda good. Same with that "Chuck Berry" fella.

---MTV's Jackie Robinson---
"When Thriller came out, it broke the radio color barrier: Black and white stations played its singles until MTV, which had not previously played videos by black artists, had to play Michael."
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

***Just google *michael jackson jackie robinson* and you will see exactly what I mean.

<": ---MTV's Jackie Robinson---">

Do you finally get it now? I doubt it.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/9/2009 4:09:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Is there something wrong with you?

The name of this article:
http://www.thedailybeast.com...

is "MTV's Jackie Robinson"

I originally said "[Michael Jackson is] the Jackie Robinson of music..."

The article was simply backing up my point. I'm sorry the article didn't say exactly what I said, your mind apparently couldn't handle that. So, I then posted 5 more articles so you could understand more clea

The 5 articles from googling "michael jackson jackie robinson":
MTV's Jackie Robinson
Commentary: Jackson was the Jackie Robinson of MTV
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson of music videos
The Jackie Robinson Of Music
Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson Of The Music Business
...also backed up my point

Get over it. You're wrong. You made some incredible straw man arguments though. Kudos for that.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/9/2009 6:37:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Ok, Nags, it's official: you're a bloody retard.

<"The name of this article:
http://www.thedailybeast.com......

is "MTV's Jackie Robinson"">

You just don't get it.

I was addressing this:

<"He's the Jackie Robinson of music...">

Which is different from this:

<"---MTV's Jackie Robinson---">

Music's Jackie Robinson =/= MTV's Jackie Robinson. There's an easily discernible difference.

<"I originally said "[Michael Jackson is] the Jackie Robinson of music..."

The article was simply backing up my point">

No, that point certainly does not back up the point that Jackson is the Jackie Robinson of music. It backs up the point that he's the Jackie Robinson of MTV, which, as I've been saying, is clearly different.

There were black people prominent in music before Jackson ever was. For God's sake, black people had success in Motown before Jackson did.

Yeah, sure, your MTV crap can be true; I don't care. But it doesn't matter, because being the "Jackie Robinson of MTV" =/= "the Jackie Robinson of music."

<"I'm sorry the article didn't say exactly what I said,">

Ha, yeah -- it's saying something completely different than what you said.

<"Get over it. You're wrong. You made some incredible straw man arguments though. Kudos for that">

Nah, I'm right. It's obvious.

And actually, you're the one refuting arguments I never made -- I've never claimed Jackson wasn't MTV's Robinson, so posting articles saying he was is oddly irrelevant.

It's rather amusing to me that you don't understand what's going on, though.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/9/2009 6:42:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Ok, dumba$$.

1) MTV = music television. So, yes it does back up my point.
2) I told you to google *michael jackson jackie robinson* about 4 times.

Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson Of The Music Business
http://thesop.org...

Michael Jackson: The Jackie Robinson of music videos
http://www.theloop21.com...

The Jackie Robinson Of Music
http://www.cbsnews.com...

3) Seriously...?
patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/9/2009 7:20:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
<"MTV = music television. So, yes it does back up my point.">

No, no it doesn't, considering that music has been around and has been popular for much, much longer than MTV has been around. Knowing this, and that MTV doesn't constitute all music, we can easily see that one can be likened to Robinson with validity with one, but not necessarily the other.

Music covers a much broader, more extensive array of categories than MTV ever could hope to, which means Jackson could've been MTV's Jackie Robinson, but not necessarily music's, especially considering there were plenty of popular black musicians before Jackson, MTV, you, or I.

In essence, as I've been saying, MTV's Jackie Robinson =/= music's Jackie Robinson.

If you don't get this, then you're utterly hopeless.
Chuckles
Posts: 274
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7/9/2009 7:30:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
NAGS/PATSOX:
You are arguing some pointless arguments about the difference between music and MTV.
How about we talk about the thread's topic!?
And, for whoever said MJ was more important than McNamara...
I have a feeling the engineer of the most divisive US war of the 20th Century had more of an impact than the King of Pop.
"Pumas are wretched beasts with enourmous salty genitals."-MadMonkey889

: At 5/5/2009 9:47:22 PM, rogerklotz wrote:
:That's obviously changed by the government. The Atlanteans probably had something to do with it.
: QUIT USING LOGIC

: At 4/25/2009 3:09:34 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
:God is GOING to have His way with you.
: At 5/5/2009 11:41:18 AM, Volkov wrote:
:When both sides can agree and disagree without someone quoting Proverbs, then the debate comes worthwhile
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/9/2009 7:45:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/9/2009 7:20:04 PM, patsox834 wrote:
<"MTV = music television. So, yes it does back up my point.">

No, no it doesn't, considering that music has been around and has been popular for much, much longer than MTV has been around. Knowing this, and that MTV doesn't constitute all music, we can easily see that one can be likened to Robinson with validity with one, but not necessarily the other.

Music covers a much broader, more extensive array of categories than MTV ever could hope to, which means Jackson could've been MTV's Jackie Robinson, but not necessarily music's, especially considering there were plenty of popular black musicians before Jackson, MTV, you, or I.

In essence, as I've been saying, MTV's Jackie Robinson =/= music's Jackie Robinson.

If you don't get this, then you're utterly hopeless.

So... you failed to look at the other 3 articles I posted. Or are you just avoiding responding to them?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/9/2009 7:46:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/9/2009 7:30:29 PM, Chuckles wrote:
And, for whoever said MJ was more important than McNamara...
I have a feeling the engineer of the most divisive US war of the 20th Century had more of an impact than the King of Pop.

The impact would be the same if John Q. Smith was the SoD instead of McNamara.