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Out-Foxed

Danielle
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8/8/2009 7:39:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
http://www.outfoxed.org...

A great documentary on how the Fox "news" network uses scummy media tactics (including the brilliant but ridiculous tag line of "Fair and Balanced" as their motto) to issue nothing but blatant conservative propaganda under the guise of political moderation. I'll tell ya - I never hated Bill O'Reilly more. And that's saying a lot. Anyway, one reason that I really appreciated this film is because it's very straight-forward. There is absolutely no way to lie about any of its messages; the tactics used on the network are represented by the anchors themselves, i.e. O'Reilly telling anyone he disagrees with to "Shut up" and calling for the techs to cut their mic's the second they effectively argue one of his RETARDED talking points. The only criticism of this movie might be that it ignores the reality of other news stations potentially being biased towards one ideology. However, Fox is just a pathetic shining example of making a mockery out of journalism all-together. It's disgusting. It doesn't report news - it reports opinions.
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Volkov
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8/8/2009 8:05:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Interesting stuff. I wish I could buy it now, but alas... I'll have to look for a free copy somewhere.

I've had no doubts that opinion-wise, FOX is biased like the Republican Party is right-wing. Some of the things they say, as well, are completely outrageous, and really undignified when coming from people that are supposed to be telling the public news of the day.

But, that being said, FOX isn't always that bad. Their straight news segments are fine, as are most news segments on most news channels, even MSNBC, which is undoubtedly left-wing. Their opinion segments, while abhorrent, have had some very well respected and well rounded characters, such was Mike Wallace (ironically, the name of my local MP, who isn't quite as cool) or Shepherd Smith (who've I've grown to like).

There is other personalities which aren't quite as 'unbiased' or even 'smart'. Bill O'Reilly fits into that category 100%. I couldn't stand him if he turned into Keith Olbermann. Glenn Beck is an idiot, and Hannity is just as bad. These are the personalities that FOX should be rid of.

Anyways, I'll give my opinion on the 'Outfoxed' doc when I get the chance to watch it.
JBlake
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8/8/2009 8:52:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/8/2009 7:39:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:

However, Fox is just a pathetic shining example of making a mockery out of journalism all-together. It's disgusting. It doesn't report news - it reports opinions.

Well... The way they get away with it is by calling themselves 'commentators' instead of journalists. 'Commentators' are not bound by the same ethical rules and are not held to the same standards. Unfortunately, many viewers don't understand this very important difference because it is downplayed.
USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
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8/9/2009 12:37:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Congratulations!

You now know what it feels like to be approximately 1/30 of a conservative (i.e., your efforts to find decent, non-biased, somewhat-balanced journalism today).
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/9/2009 9:57:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Volkov: You should definitely watch this. I think you'd appreciate it.

JBlake: True about the commentator bit, but I also think it's atrocious that the memos to the employees LITERALLY say things like, "Don't show all of Kerry's speech. You only need to show 5 minutes of it..." and then show the entire GWB speech, for example. Another former anchor revealed how they were given orders to do anything and everything in their power to make Jesse Jackson look bad. More not-so-obvious tactics include putting a good looking, well spoken, All-American guy like Sean Hannity verses the quacky, squirrely looking guy like Colmes who can never seem to hold his own in order to make any leftist POV seem ridiculous. But yeah. The way they treat their guests with leftist views is just abhorrent and I don't understand why anyone would listen to these "commentators" for their news briefings.
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Danielle
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8/9/2009 10:27:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I dunno who the lesser of the two evils is. I think Bill holds the title, but Sean is really going for it. Bill's incessant "Shut ups!" is annoying and mayhaps Sean is headed in that direction, but Bill is still the guy who tells the anti-war kid who lost his dad in 9/11 (Jeremy Glick) that his father would be disgusted by his son's position in protesting the war, that he doesn't respect his father, etc. WTF? He is the tool of all tools. I'm surprised he hasn't been assassinated yet. I mean really... people can shoot Lennon, but not O'Reilly? What kinda world is this, man.
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wjmelements
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8/9/2009 10:33:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 10:13:55 AM, JBlake wrote:
Bill O'Reilly isn't even the worst anymore. Sean Hannity is worse, I think.

Glenn Beck is worse in that regard.
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USAPitBull63
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8/9/2009 11:16:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
You do know that Glenn Beck isn't a news anchor, right?

Aside from any "that's my point" attempted counterpoints... you seriously know he's not one of their intended (aside from breaking- during his show) news anchors, right?
JBlake
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8/9/2009 12:14:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 11:16:26 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
You do know that Glenn Beck isn't a news anchor, right?

Aside from any "that's my point" attempted counterpoints... you seriously know he's not one of their intended (aside from breaking- during his show) news anchors, right?

There are maybe one or two genuine news anchors left... if you could even call them that. The rest are officially known as 'political commentators' which is a nice was of saying pundit. They offer an opinion. The problem I have with them is when they try to pass themselves off as journalists. They won't say they are journalists, but they will say things like 'we give you the truth' or 'the spin stops here'. That intentionally misleads the public into thinking they are actually listening to journalists (who are required to provide sources, &ct) instead of the opinions of a pundit. This is probably the biggest reason why Americans are not only uninformed, but misinformed.

Glen Beck certainly ranks up there with O'Reilly and Hannity. I think Hannity is worse in terms of what and how he says things. O'Reilly might be worse in general because he reaches a larger audience then any other. Beck is kind of looney and I don't think (read: I hope) no one actually takes him seriously. His antics make it difficult for him to get his point across clearly.
USAPitBull63
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8/9/2009 3:12:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Exactly, Beck is a pundit. And every network does this, especially on cable.

Olbermann, Matthews, Scarborough, Buchanan, Maddowe, etc. (MSNBC)

Bennett, Gergen, Bernstein, McCaffrey, Toobin, Bagala, Brazile, Borger, etc. (CNN)

This whole thread is amusing to me. When news anchors, and self-proclaimed journalists, and alleged objective reporters and newspapers continually skew stories or insert their own opinions, omissions, and slants---that's when a breach of ethics occurs. Not when people paid to spark debate/give opinions do it.

O'Reilly? Hannity? Limbaugh? Coulter? If you don't like them, don't watch them.

p.s. Some frequent leftist commentators who seem far more competent than Alan Colmes, and who are treated respectfully on a consistent basis by FNC, include (but are not limited to): Ellis Henican; Kirsten Powers; Juan Williams; Geraldo Rivera.
JBlake
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8/9/2009 3:23:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 3:12:04 PM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
Exactly, Beck is a pundit. And every network does this, especially on cable.

Olbermann, Matthews, Scarborough, Buchanan, Maddowe, etc. (MSNBC)

Bennett, Gergen, Bernstein, McCaffrey, Toobin, Bagala, Brazile, Borger, etc. (CNN)

This whole thread is amusing to me. When news anchors, and self-proclaimed journalists, and alleged objective reporters and newspapers continually skew stories or insert their own opinions, omissions, and slants---that's when a breach of ethics occurs. Not when people paid to spark debate/give opinions do it.

O'Reilly? Hannity? Limbaugh? Coulter? If you don't like them, don't watch them.

p.s. Some frequent leftist commentators who seem far more competent than Alan Colmes, and who are treated respectfully on a consistent basis by FNC, include (but are not limited to): Ellis Henican; Kirsten Powers; Juan Williams; Geraldo Rivera.

Geraldo as a leftist? Odd...

You use CNN and MSNBC as examples of liberal commentators. That does not excuse the bias and irresponsible activity of Fox News. Saying 'but look at the other guy doing bad things, too' does not make your bad things any better. Yes, other networks have similar problems (but not to the same degree). That just means that they should stop being irresponsible as well.

You also say that the real controversy is when news anchors &ct skew stories and use their opinion there is a breach of ethics. Yes, that is true. But it is also unethical for a pundit to mislead people into believing they are journalists.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/9/2009 3:30:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Geraldo is a leftist...? Hmm. I don't think so.

Anyway, I don't even know who Beck is. I guess I don't watch enough Fox!

Real journalists still exist out there. Somewhere.

Of course Campbell Brown is my lover <3

I'm a huge fan of AC 360 too (Anderson Cooper).

Rachel Maddaux on MSNBC is funny but an obvious Leftist.

I dunno... All I know is that I watch CNN just about 24/7.

(Not lately. No TV in the new place yet. Grr.)
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Volkov
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8/9/2009 3:33:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The problem with what is meant to be obvious opinion sections - they never seem like it. It is always present as "news" and "information," even when it is clearly just the opinion of someone with a bloated ego.
USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
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8/9/2009 3:51:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 3:23:39 PM, JBlake wrote:

You use CNN and MSNBC as examples of liberal commentators. That does not excuse the bias and irresponsible activity of Fox News. Saying 'but look at the other guy doing bad things, too' does not make your bad things any better. Yes, other networks have similar problems (but not to the same degree). That just means that they should stop being irresponsible as well.

1.) Actually, I used these names exactly as I explained: not just to show leftist commentators (as I also included names of right-leaning pundits), but to show that all news networks have political pundits aside from news anchors. This evidences that FNC is not exactly a massive, sinister conspiracy organization that concocted this common practice.

2.) I haven't excused anyone from any "irresponsible activity." But being as I've yet to see compelling evidence of ethics breaches at Fox News from your posts, I don't feel I need to defend them from anything (not that I necessarily would, anyway).

3.) I never implied, and certainly did not say, anything to the effect of "other networks are doing bad things, too, so it's ok." I know the difference between news anchors and pundits, so I don't see any major morality violation here. I'm quite flattered you thought I said that, but I didn't. Sorry! :)

4.) I don't see any major disparity between the number of FNC analysts and that of other news networks. But sure, if one network hypothetically does something it shouldn't, I would hope other networks wouldn't feel entitled to do it either. (And when we think of whatever that "something" could be, let me know!)

You also say that the real controversy is when news anchors &ct skew stories and use their opinion there is a breach of ethics. Yes, that is true. But it is also unethical for a pundit to mislead people into believing they are journalists.

1.) I'm glad you agree with me;

2.) I never said otherwise (to your latter point);

3.) You haven't accused any specific person of doing this (to indicate this breach of ethics), let alone anyone on FNC. Your criteria for this, from your previous post, seems pretty subjective; but I respect your opinion (irony!). However, the general public is responsible for knowing the difference between fact and opinion, objective and subjective, anyway; whether or not you feel most people can adequately do so is, well, subjective and another issue entirely.
JBlake
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8/9/2009 4:07:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 3:51:32 PM, USAPitBull63 wrote:

1.) I'm glad you agree with me;

2.) I never said otherwise (to your latter point);

3.) You haven't accused any specific person of doing this (to indicate this breach of ethics), let alone anyone on FNC. Your criteria for this, from your previous post, seems pretty subjective; but I respect your opinion (irony!). However, the general public is responsible for knowing the difference between fact and opinion, objective and subjective, anyway; whether or not you feel most people can adequately do so is, well, subjective and another issue entirely.

Although there are others, the main (and most popular) ones on Fox are Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and Glen Beck. I thought we had already made those accusations. They sometimes call themselves anchors, they claim to be 'reporting' the 'truth'.

Although you and I may be able to tell the difference between a news anchor and a pundit, many people cannot. Many people go to these shows expecting news, instead they get opinion dressed up as news.
USAPitBull63
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8/9/2009 4:26:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 4:07:36 PM, JBlake wrote:
Although there are others, the main (and most popular) ones on Fox are Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and Glen Beck. I thought we had already made those accusations. They sometimes call themselves anchors, they claim to be 'reporting' the 'truth'.

1.) What accusations? That they manipulate opinion to seem factual? Some of it is based on irrefutable fact; some of it is not.

For example, you're implicitly alleging to give me the "truth" here, in stating that pundits claim to be anchors sometimes. I disagree and have yet to witness any evidence of that alleged truth. Does this make you a liar? Perhaps, as I refute it as untrue. But I know your overall point is truth, as you see it; it's subjective.

I disagree, to an extent, and that doesn't make you a liar; nor does it make my opinion any less subjective (although I wouldn't claim pundits pretend to be anchors). I know the difference between objective and subjective, as is my personal responsibility as a member of the news-receiving/critiquing general public. Until the general public is forced to watch/listen, this seems a non-issue.

Although you and I may be able to tell the difference between a news anchor and a pundit, many people cannot. Many people go to these shows expecting news, instead they get opinion dressed up as news.

Well, then do your best to educate your fellow human beings. I'm won't blame someone paid to give an opinion for someone who listens to it thinking it's objective. Just as with violent or adult-themed video games, or explicit/vulgar music or movies, there comes a responsibility of the public to also know the difference between reality and fiction; fact and opinion; objective and subjective.

Again, this is a separate issue, but perhaps it's the real crux of your irritation with cable news networks, FNC in particular.
Xer
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8/9/2009 4:33:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I actually do find Fox fair and balanced.

1) All you critics are pointing to Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly. This is meaningless. Those three men have talk shows with their own opinions, they aren't meant to be fair and balanced. If they were, they wouldn't be talk shows now, would they?

2) Fox has their good amount of lefties. Shepherd Smith, Greta Van Susteren, and Geraldo Rivera are all liberal. They each have their own show with their own name on it.

3) Fox also has some great non-partisan personalities. They have Brit Baier who does the primetime news. And they have Chris Wallace (not Mike Wallace as Volkov said) who does FOX News Sunday, the FOX equivalent of NBC's Meet The Press.

4) Whenever an important issue is being discussed on news programs such as America's News HQ, there are always a liberal and conservative viewpoint. Each talk show host debates at least one opposing viewpoint during their show.

=====

When you got down to it, you can see a blatant liberal bias in CNN and MSNBC during the news programs. When it comes to talk shows, CNN is centrist. But MSNBC does not have one conservative. MSNBC is a mockery of a news channel. All Obama-aid getting shoved down your throat 24/7 no matter what the program. There are no opposing viewpoints or anything.

IMO Fox is clearly the best news channel.
Volkov
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8/9/2009 4:44:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 4:33:51 PM, Nags wrote:
And they have Chris Wallace (not Mike Wallace as Volkov said)

Chris Wallace is Mike Wallace's son, though you're right as Mike Wallace was a CBS anchor, wasn't he. Chris Wallace is pretty good though.

When you got down to it, you can see a blatant liberal bias in CNN and MSNBC during the news programs. When it comes to talk shows, CNN is centrist. But MSNBC does not have one conservative. MSNBC is a mockery of a news channel. All Obama-aid getting shoved down your throat 24/7 no matter what the program. There are no opposing viewpoints or anything.

IMO Fox is clearly the best news channel.

I disagree with that, especially when it comes to MSNBC. Rachel Maddow has recently had a good number of opposing opinion ones, but she is also a commentator. But, she does have opposing views on.

I've never seen anything wrong with MSNBC, CNN, ABC or CBS news programs in terms of real bias. The only problem I really see with all American networks is the amount of crap that actually gets on the news. Why do I care about what Michelle Obama is wearing today? Why is it Jon Stewart has more relevance than Wolf Blitzer?

Stick with CBC and BBC, and you'll get real relevance.
leet4A1
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8/9/2009 4:53:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 10:27:39 AM, theLwerd wrote:
I'm surprised he hasn't been assassinated yet. I mean really... people can shoot Lennon, but not O'Reilly? What kinda world is this, man.

Haha, Bill Hicks used to say something similar re. wrongful assassinations:

"Martin Luther King, murdered. Malcomn X, murdered. Gahndi, murdered. John Lennon, murdered. Reagan... wounded."

Also, nice pic Lwerd. I'm reading Kingdom of Fear at the moment, HST is the man!
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
JBlake
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8/9/2009 5:18:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/9/2009 4:33:51 PM, Nags wrote:

1) All you critics are pointing to Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly. This is meaningless. Those three men have talk shows with their own opinions, they aren't meant to be fair and balanced. If they were, they wouldn't be talk shows now, would they?

You have missed the entire argument, I think. The point is not that it is bad to have pundits, the point is that they pretend to be news anchors.

USAPitBull:
I am leaving for a bit. When I get back I will post examples of pundits claiming to be journalists.
USAPitBull63
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8/9/2009 6:19:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
All right, but keep in mind: Just claiming their journalists, in their own right, doesn't make them a network's assigned news "anchors."

So if you show evidence of them claiming to be news anchors who deliver the network's "top" stories of the day, then I would be interested in seeing that.

But if you're just going to show evidence of them claiming to be journalists in general, well, that won't evidence much toward this issue.
USAPitBull63
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8/9/2009 6:28:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I've gotten into a habit of finding one egregious typo per post, after the fact. Grr.

But this one I feel worthy of correcting, rather than shrugging off:

"Just claiming their [sic, they're] journalists, in their own right, doesn't make them a network's assigned news "anchors."

My bad. :)
JBlake
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8/9/2009 7:19:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Why is claiming to be a journalist when you are a pundit (who is not held to the same journalistic standards) not the same as a news anchor?

Off the top of my head, on the flap of O'Reilly's book claims that he "rose from humble beginnings to become a nationally known broadcast journalist." He also falsely claimed that his Inside Edition show won a Peabody award (the highest award in journalism).

From his Fox News bio (http://www.foxnews.com...):
"Bill O'Reilly joined FOX News Channel (FNC) as the anchor/host of The O'Reilly Factor in 1996."

From Glenn Beck's website (http://www.glennbeck.com...):
"Glenn Beck: News Anchor Grills Biden"

Fox news website (http://www.foxnews.com...):
"GLENN BECK, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: In this world."

Hannity, from fox news website (http://www.foxnews.com...):
"SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR (voice-over): So do teleprompter issues now run in the family?"

These are a few examples. I limited it to coming from fox news itself or to the individual. These are just a few examples of claiming to be an anchor. This does not include the times that they insinuate that they are to be trusted journalists, which is much more often (and much more difficult to prove).
Lifeisgood
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8/9/2009 7:31:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/8/2009 8:52:23 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 8/8/2009 7:39:25 PM, theLwerd wrote:

However, Fox is just a pathetic shining example of making a mockery out of journalism all-together. It's disgusting. It doesn't report news - it reports opinions.

Well... The way they get away with it is by calling themselves 'commentators' instead of journalists. 'Commentators' are not bound by the same ethical rules and are not held to the same standards. Unfortunately, many viewers don't understand this very important difference because it is downplayed.

Well said. Fox isn't really a 'true' news channel. Too many of its shows (such as the O'Reilly Factor) are commentaries, nothing more.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln