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Kid Refuses to Pledge

Danielle
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11/24/2009 5:02:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This kid is awesome. He's 10 and wants to be a lawyer, so he decided to analyze the Pledge of Allegiance and concluded that there really isn't liberty and justice for all in this country (because gays can't marry, racism and sexism still exist, etc.). He wants the country to adapt the ideals embodied in the pledge. He exercised his first amendment right to not pledge and got in trouble for it both by the school administration, and his fellow Arkansas classmates who continue to call him a Gaywad. Haha. Disagree with him or not, I'm impressed by this kid's enthusiasm.
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Volkov
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11/24/2009 5:08:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Good on him! Someone that young looking into the legalities surrounding the Pledge, let alone the reality that fails to live up to it, is a wonder in and of itself - but to take such a stand against such odds is just brilliant.

I want this kid to take on that conservative dork that spoke at CPAC 2009 - already forgot his name.
Xer
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11/24/2009 5:09:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:08:45 PM, Volkov wrote:
I want this kid to take on that conservative dork that spoke at CPAC 2009 - already forgot his name.

JONATHAN KROHN!
leet4A1
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11/24/2009 5:11:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:02:49 PM, theLwerd wrote:
This kid is awesome. He's 10 and wants to be a lawyer, so he decided to analyze the Pledge of Allegiance and concluded that there really isn't liberty and justice for all in this country (because gays can't marry, racism and sexism still exist, etc.). He wants the country to adapt the ideals embodied in the pledge. He exercised his first amendment right to not pledge and got in trouble for it both by the school administration, and his fellow Arkansas classmates who continue to call him a Gaywad. Haha. Disagree with him or not, I'm impressed by this kid's enthusiasm.


Haha, what an awesome kid, he's going to go far.

So do you guys have to say the pledge of allegiance every day at school and stuff, and if you don't want to do it you get in trouble? Yikes.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
PoeJoe
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11/24/2009 5:16:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Props to the kid. Seriously awesome.

But whenever a kid makes a bold move like this, I always feel a bit uneasy. There is little doubt that the kid's father put him up to this small act of civil disobedience, or at the very least, instilled strong political values in him which strongly encouraged him to disobey. I doubt the kid has heard the entire issue.

But, really, that kid is awesome.
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leet4A1
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11/24/2009 5:19:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:16:22 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Props to the kid. Seriously awesome.

But whenever a kid makes a bold move like this, I always feel a bit uneasy. There is little doubt that the kid's father put him up to this small act of civil disobedience, or at the very least, instilled strong political values in him which strongly encouraged him to disobey. I doubt the kid has heard the entire issue.

You think so? You can't believe that a child of 10 has the wherewithal to think "wait a minute, this speech they've brainwashed me with since birth is a lie" without his parents' intervention?

But, really, that kid is awesome.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Xer
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11/24/2009 5:22:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:12:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 11/24/2009 5:09:29 PM, Nags wrote:
JONATHAN KROHN!

Yes!

I want to punch him!

Lol, that kid is extremely annoying. I didn't think he was that annoying during the speech, but he thought he was the absolute sh1t on all the news channels and interviews he did. He's pretty smart though, he can speak well and he wrote his own book. I still don't like him though. As for the pledge of allegiance kid, I think this has kind've blown out of proportion - he's more than likely being coached by his father.
Volkov
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11/24/2009 5:24:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:22:11 PM, Nags wrote:
As for the pledge of allegiance kid, I think this has kind've blown out of proportion - he's more than likely being coached by his father.

Blown out of proportion... yes. It is. But I see no indicators that the father was coaching the kid. There are really smart ones out there. Maybe not always cropping up in America, but they're out there.
PoeJoe
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11/24/2009 5:25:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:19:19 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
You think so? You can't believe that a child of 10 has the wherewithal to think "wait a minute, this speech they've brainwashed me with since birth is a lie" without his parents' intervention?

What I'm saying is that, at the very least, the kid's father is probably the primary reason for his small act of civil disobedience. Sure, he may have put the dots together. But I'm saying that, more than likely, the father drew those dots for him; he drew them dark.
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leet4A1
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11/24/2009 5:28:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:24:22 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 11/24/2009 5:22:11 PM, Nags wrote:
As for the pledge of allegiance kid, I think this has kind've blown out of proportion - he's more than likely being coached by his father.

Blown out of proportion... yes. It is. But I see no indicators that the father was coaching the kid. There are really smart ones out there. Maybe not always cropping up in America, but they're out there.

Plus, it's not as though you have to be Einstein to realize the Pledge of Allegiance is a lie anyway. I'd think a 5 year-old could think "liberty and justice for all? What about gays?" or "One nation under God... but wait, my parents don't believe in God."
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Danielle
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11/24/2009 5:36:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I highly doubt that his father was coaching him (his father seems kinda gay though lol). I was really ballsy like that when I was little too; I was always challenging the teachers on stuff and getting into the same kind of trouble... especially when it came to being in Catholic school. Also, my parents really don't give a crap about politics and so my protest and interest was really based on my own inclination. This kid just seems kinda intelligent and a little ahead of his time. Mostly ballsy though.
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leet4A1
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11/24/2009 5:37:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:36:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I highly doubt that his father was coaching him (his father seems kinda gay though lol). I was really ballsy like that when I was little too; I was always challenging the teachers on stuff and getting into the same kind of trouble... especially when it came to being in Catholic school. Also, my parents really don't give a crap about politics and so my protest and interest was really based on my own inclination.

Likewise. :)
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
studentathletechristian8
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11/24/2009 5:42:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Wow. To me, this is ironic. I haven't been saying the "for all" part in the Pledge for a while either. I have a hard time saying "under God" because I realize how many non-Christians there are in the US, many so-called "Christians" are not even religious. I give props to this kid. Although I have a different premise on my refusal to state the above mentioned parts, I'm glad the kid stood up for himself. What he said about gays getting married; I really don't agree with it. I apologize, L, but I don't see what is highly unfair. One man can only marry one woman. One woman can only marry one man. That is an established rule for every person in the US. Technically, it is fair. In the eyes of the law, (in many courts, I will not say all) I feel they may agree to that testament. Similar to the child, I'd also like to become a lawyer when I grow-up. I think it's weird how we have similar viewpoints but completely different characteristics. That little kid is probably very left-wing and homosexual, while I am probably more right-wring and heterosexual.
leet4A1
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11/24/2009 5:45:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
What I'd like to know is why it is a big deal to begin with? Is America so vain that its citizens must be forced to recite a love-letter to it every day? What are the consequences of not standing for the pledge every day? Oh, and do yous really have to put your hand on your heart like in the movies?

In Australia, they play the national anthem every morning on parade, but nobody is forced to sing it.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
studentathletechristian8
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11/24/2009 5:47:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:45:10 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
What I'd like to know is why it is a big deal to begin with? Is America so vain that its citizens must be forced to recite a love-letter to it every day? What are the consequences of not standing for the pledge every day? Oh, and do yous really have to put your hand on your heart like in the movies?

In Australia, they play the national anthem every morning on parade, but nobody is forced to sing it.

Yes, we put our hands over our hearts. Every day I do the pledge, I wonder how stupid it is just to do it in the first place. I feel like all I'm doing is wasting a minute of my daily life talking to a piece of fabric. What is really the point?
leet4A1
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11/24/2009 5:50:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:47:07 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 11/24/2009 5:45:10 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
What I'd like to know is why it is a big deal to begin with? Is America so vain that its citizens must be forced to recite a love-letter to it every day? What are the consequences of not standing for the pledge every day? Oh, and do yous really have to put your hand on your heart like in the movies?

In Australia, they play the national anthem every morning on parade, but nobody is forced to sing it.

Yes, we put our hands over our hearts.

Wow, isn't that embarrassing? Don't you feel like sheep? I'm not insulting you guys, I understand it is a tradition and so forth, but don't you ever just feel like refusing to stand like this kid did?

Every day I do the pledge, I wonder how stupid it is just to do it in the first place. I feel like all I'm doing is wasting a minute of my daily life talking to a piece of fabric. What is really the point?

Very good question. I'd like to hear an argument in favour of it.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Danielle
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11/24/2009 5:51:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:42:07 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Wow. To me, this is ironic. I haven't been saying the "for all" part in the Pledge for a while either. I have a hard time saying "under God" because I realize how many non-Christians there are in the US, many so-called "Christians" are not even religious. I give props to this kid. Although I have a different premise on my refusal to state the above mentioned parts, I'm glad the kid stood up for himself. What he said about gays getting married; I really don't agree with it. I apologize, L, but I don't see what is highly unfair. One man can only marry one woman. One woman can only marry one man. That is an established rule for every person in the US. Technically, it is fair. In the eyes of the law, (in many courts, I will not say all) I feel they may agree to that testament. Similar to the child, I'd also like to become a lawyer when I grow-up. I think it's weird how we have similar viewpoints but completely different characteristics. That little kid is probably very left-wing and homosexual, while I am probably more right-wring and heterosexual.

I don't take any offense to your beliefs, sac. However, I take offense with being taxed in a country that will give some people tax BENEFITS (breaks) based on who they sleep with. I don't think who one has a romantic relationship with should have any legal or monetary bearing outside of power of attorney rights, which can be established through legal proceedings outside of marriage. So, it's discrimination in the most blatant way -- If you're a heterosexual, you're rewarded, but if you're not, then you're punished. As long as this discrepancy was resolved, I really couldn't care less if the State approves of who I'm sleeping with. The State can suck it. We're still going to be in a relationship, we're still going to do all of the same things married people do (including have kids), etc. If it makes people feel better to think of gays as second class citizens because they're insecure bigots, then fine. Just make the LEGAL rights equal, and don't punish me (not give me the tax benefits of being in the same type of relationship that heteros are in) for not being straight. That's stupid.
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Xer
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11/24/2009 5:57:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:50:45 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
Wow, isn't that embarrassing? Don't you feel like sheep? I'm not insulting you guys, I understand it is a tradition and so forth, but don't you ever just feel like refusing to stand like this kid did?

In elementary school, everyone in the class proudly put their hands over their hearts and recited the pledge with honor. In middle school, most kids did recite the pledge, but it was less enthusastic as in elementary school. Now in high school, there is a very small amount of kids who actually recite the pledge, the teacher is the loudest, and he impatiently pleads with all of us to say the pledge - although all kids stand up and 90% put their hand over their heart. Personally, I think the Pledge is BS. I stand up, I half-heartedly put my hand over my heart, and barely ever actually recite the Pledge. I wouldn't call it embarassing though, I'd just say the Pledge has no real meaning now, it's just whatever now.
leet4A1
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11/24/2009 6:00:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is why.

Damn, can't watch vids at work mate. :(
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
leet4A1
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11/24/2009 6:02:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 5:57:00 PM, Nags wrote:
At 11/24/2009 5:50:45 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
Wow, isn't that embarrassing? Don't you feel like sheep? I'm not insulting you guys, I understand it is a tradition and so forth, but don't you ever just feel like refusing to stand like this kid did?

In elementary school, everyone in the class proudly put their hands over their hearts and recited the pledge with honor. In middle school, most kids did recite the pledge, but it was less enthusastic as in elementary school. Now in high school, there is a very small amount of kids who actually recite the pledge, the teacher is the loudest, and he impatiently pleads with all of us to say the pledge - although all kids stand up and 90% put their hand over their heart. Personally, I think the Pledge is BS. I stand up, I half-heartedly put my hand over my heart, and barely ever actually recite the Pledge. I wouldn't call it embarassing though, I'd just say the Pledge has no real meaning now, it's just whatever now.

Ahh righto I get ya, so it's not compulsory, more just that people think it's their patriotic obligation or something.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Volkov
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11/24/2009 6:07:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Maybe I'm the only left-leaning person here who thinks singing an anthem, or reciting a the pledge, is important...

No doubt, if you don't want to do it, then there is no reason you should have to. Free speech, and moreover free thought, is important. But feeling an attachment to your homeland is very important to have instilled, I think. It is those kinds of attachments that define who you are.

To paraphrase Michael Ignatieff, if you ask me who I am, I'm not going to say "I'm Volkov, I'm human," because that doesn't mean anything to you, and it certainly doesn't tell you anything about who I am.

But, if I say, "I'm Volkov, I'm Canadian," then you know exactly who I am, or at least have an idea, because of that descriptor - "Canadian." It is that attachment to our country that gives us an identity to others that matters, that is useful.

That sense of attachment is also important for those of you who say "well, the Pledge obviously isn't describing reality." If you actually want to change your country, you need to have that sense of attachment and belonging, otherwise you're just speaking with no intent. Because why would you bother changing something if you don't care for it?
Xer
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11/24/2009 6:13:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Volkov, I agree with you for the most part. However, the Pledge is not a useful or efficent tool in instilling patriotism. The Pledge is meaningless to almost all children over 12 years old, and it lost it's luster after elementary school. I agree that patriotism is important, but the Pledge is not the tool to use.
Danielle
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11/24/2009 6:15:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 6:07:11 PM, Volkov wrote:

To paraphrase Michael Ignatieff, if you ask me who I am, I'm not going to say "I'm Volkov, I'm human," because that doesn't mean anything to you, and it certainly doesn't tell you anything about who I am.

But, if I say, "I'm Volkov, I'm Canadian," then you know exactly who I am, or at least have an idea, because of that descriptor - "Canadian." It is that attachment to our country that gives us an identity to others that matters, that is useful.

I really don't understand this. Why would you want to be defined by your nationality? A country isn't supposed to define its people. I don't agree with a majority of Americans on a lot of things; why would I want judgments made about me, my beliefs, my ideals, etc. based on where I live? That's silly. In identifying as a New Yorker, people might make some assumptions about me most of which are pretty accurate. However, what would be learned about me in stating that I was an American (to someone in another country)?

That sense of attachment is also important for those of you who say "well, the Pledge obviously isn't describing reality." If you actually want to change your country, you need to have that sense of attachment and belonging, otherwise you're just speaking with no intent. Because why would you bother changing something if you don't care for it?

I don't feel particularly attached to the U.S. for any other reasons besides convenience (this is what I know), all of my friends and family are here, etc. When I want to do something to shape government, it's because I care about myself as an individual - not as an American. I'm not really big into nationalism at all and take a huge libertarian stance in valuing the individual instead (in this regard).
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leet4A1
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11/24/2009 6:19:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'll have to second Lwerd on everything said here. I don't think it's right to judge people based on which piece of land their parents had sex on. At best, it's inaccurate.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Volkov
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11/24/2009 6:25:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 6:15:02 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I really don't understand this. Why would you want to be defined by your nationality? A country isn't supposed to define its people. I don't agree with a majority of Americans on a lot of things; why would I want judgments made about me, my beliefs, my ideals, etc. based on where I live? That's silly. In identifying as a New Yorker, people might make some assumptions about me most of which are pretty accurate. However, what would be learned about me in stating that I was an American (to someone in another country)?

Every single thing you will ever say about yourself will have assumptions attached to it, Nags. That is how humanity works - we categorize, reason, then make assumptions and generalize in order to assure our own safety. We're afraid of strangers because we don't know their intentions, which is why we ask things like "where are you from?"

And what will the answer be for you, if you choose not to say that you're American? Nowhere? Well, you just failed at society.

I don't feel particularly attached to the U.S. for any other reasons besides convenience (this is what I know), all of my friends and family are here, etc. When I want to do something to shape government, it's because I care about myself as an individual - not as an American.

Except you are American. That is apart of your personality, your life. If you so choose to make changes to governance, unless you plan on becoming a dictator or thoroughly corrupt, you're going to be doing it to benefit your country.\

You'll indirectly benefit yourself, so you can argue that it is technically all for yourself, which I have no problem with - but be careful when you say such things, because there is a difference between directly benefiting yourself, and indirectly.

I'm not really big into nationalism at all and take a huge libertarian stance in valuing the individual instead (in this regard).

Like I said - I'm probably one of the few left-leaning individuals that actually takes pride in my country.
Volkov
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11/24/2009 6:26:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/24/2009 6:25:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
Every single thing you will ever say about yourself will have assumptions attached to it, Lwerd. That is how humanity works - we categorize, reason, then make assumptions and generalize in order to assure our own safety. We're afraid of strangers because we don't know their intentions, which is why we ask things like "where are you from?"

Fix'd.
Danielle
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11/24/2009 6:35:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Tehe. It was me that said this - not Nags.

Anyway, you say that you are one of the few liberals who take pride in their country. I don't think that's true; I think that a lot of people are patriotic regardless of their political affiliations. I just don't agree with patriotism. You say you take pride in your country like it's a good thing - meanwhile, I think it's kind of irrelevant. Of course I'm grateful to live in a country like the U.S. as opposed to Cambodia (for all of the amenities that being a U.S. citizen affords me); however, being proud to be an American just for the sake of being an American is kind of silly. Of course we're all going to categorize people and being an American DOES define some aspects of my culture... but I don't really see how being patriotic benefits me in any way. I think people should care about politics because it is important and affects our lives and the lives of others, not because we need a sense of national identity.
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