Total Posts:43|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

4/10 Women are Breadwinners

darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though. The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 1:34:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

Why?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though.
The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.

You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 1:45:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though.
The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.

You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).

No, gender roles are pretty much ingrained through your exposure to the society you are born in and grow up in.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 1:49:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:45:01 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though.
The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.

You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).

No, gender roles are pretty much ingrained through your exposure to the society you are born in and grow up in.

Really, 100% in circumstances. That makes it strange that all cultures, even those cut off from one another, have pretty similar gender roles considering how they pretty much occur coincidentally.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 1:57:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:49:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:45:01 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though.
The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.

You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).

No, gender roles are pretty much ingrained through your exposure to the society you are born in and grow up in.

Really, 100% in circumstances. That makes it strange that all cultures, even those cut off from one another, have pretty similar gender roles considering how they pretty much occur coincidentally.

That's not strange given common ancestry, especially within the context of historical European Imperialism. If it was ingrained, then there wouldn't be variations across cultures, which there are.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 2:39:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:57:59 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:49:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:45:01 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though.
The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.

You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).

No, gender roles are pretty much ingrained through your exposure to the society you are born in and grow up in.

Really, 100% in circumstances. That makes it strange that all cultures, even those cut off from one another, have pretty similar gender roles considering how they pretty much occur coincidentally.

That's not strange given common ancestry, especially within the context of historical European Imperialism. If it was ingrained, then there wouldn't be variations across cultures, which there are.

I'm talking about pre-historic european imperiliams. The races have been more or less separated for thousands of years. Language, and other cultural differences remained different, and even minor gender differences (ex: Pink used to be a man's color).

We also see these gender roles adopted between primates as well. You might say that we've evolved passed our primitive mindset, but we are still very much similar to chimpanzees, especially at an emotional and subconscious level.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 2:43:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 2:39:18 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:57:59 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:49:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:45:01 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though.
The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.

You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).

No, gender roles are pretty much ingrained through your exposure to the society you are born in and grow up in.

Really, 100% in circumstances. That makes it strange that all cultures, even those cut off from one another, have pretty similar gender roles considering how they pretty much occur coincidentally.

That's not strange given common ancestry, especially within the context of historical European Imperialism. If it was ingrained, then there wouldn't be variations across cultures, which there are.

I'm talking about pre-historic european imperiliams. The races have been more or less separated for thousands of years. Language, and other cultural differences remained different, and even minor gender differences (ex: Pink used to be a man's color).

We also see these gender roles adopted between primates as well. You might say that we've evolved passed our primitive mindset, but we are still very much similar to chimpanzees, especially at an emotional and subconscious level.

Ok, well, I'll agree that there is a blurry line between "gender role" and "sexual dimorphism" but I think things like "a woman's place is in the kitchen" is purely cultural.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 3:10:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 2:43:11 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 2:39:18 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:57:59 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:49:02 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:45:01 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:32:33 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

The high divorce rate is due to the orthodox gender role perception, though.
The perception is changing, so its good. The divorce rate is essentially an outcome of that orthodoxy, that can't be a good reason to judge the new development. That's circular reasoning.

You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).

No, gender roles are pretty much ingrained through your exposure to the society you are born in and grow up in.

Really, 100% in circumstances. That makes it strange that all cultures, even those cut off from one another, have pretty similar gender roles considering how they pretty much occur coincidentally.

That's not strange given common ancestry, especially within the context of historical European Imperialism. If it was ingrained, then there wouldn't be variations across cultures, which there are.

I'm talking about pre-historic european imperiliams. The races have been more or less separated for thousands of years. Language, and other cultural differences remained different, and even minor gender differences (ex: Pink used to be a man's color).

We also see these gender roles adopted between primates as well. You might say that we've evolved passed our primitive mindset, but we are still very much similar to chimpanzees, especially at an emotional and subconscious level.

Ok, well, I'll agree that there is a blurry line between "gender role" and "sexual dimorphism" but I think things like "a woman's place is in the kitchen" is purely cultural.

Well kitchens didn't exactly exist until the invention of households and the oven. However, the idea that women are in charge mainly of childrearing isn't cultural at all and I'd be hard pressed to find a culture where little children are cared more by the father than the mother.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 8:03:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

Yeah, this seems like a good thing... Guy gets insecure because the female makes more money? Probably not a genetic trait worth being passed down. Also that guy is an @ss.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 8:17:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 1:37:47 PM, darkkermit wrote:
You don't think that orthodox gender role perceptions are innate though? Love and relationships take place in an emotional, reptilian brain level. It doesn't take place in higher-functioning brain (frontal brain lobes).

If what your saying is true, if gender roles are innate, and ultimately governed by an emotional reptilian sector of the brain, then the events I linked could have never occurred. The fact that women have become bread winners in 40% of instances either indicates that women can somehow overcoming innate perceptions, or that gender norms aren't innate.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 10:08:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 8:35:46 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:14:41 PM, Yraelz wrote:
And the world is ending: http://www.upworthy.com...

Fox better than Comedy Central.

You and I both know, that in a fight to death, Jon Stewart could kill every single fox news pundit simultaneously.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 10:51:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Whenever hardcore republicans start to talk about how women ought to act, this is the first thing that pops into my head:
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/31/2013 11:41:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 6:07:43 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sparta?

Stop using history and actual anthropological analysis to refute oppression and ignorance. It's not fair to the oppressors.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/1/2013 1:43:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Megyn Kelly makes me smile: http://www.upworthy.com...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/1/2013 1:44:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 11:41:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 6:07:43 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sparta?

Stop using history and actual anthropological analysis to refute oppression and ignorance. It's not fair to the oppressors.

I think you are taking this way too seriously
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/1/2013 2:16:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2013 1:44:59 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/31/2013 11:41:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 6:07:43 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sparta?

Stop using history and actual anthropological analysis to refute oppression and ignorance. It's not fair to the oppressors.

I think you are taking this way too seriously

A lot of the times she does. I don't think that's the case here. But I don't blame you, it's hard when you're speaking from a place of entitlement.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/1/2013 2:43:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2013 2:16:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/1/2013 1:44:59 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/31/2013 11:41:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/31/2013 6:07:43 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sparta?

Stop using history and actual anthropological analysis to refute oppression and ignorance. It's not fair to the oppressors.

I think you are taking this way too seriously

A lot of the times she does. I don't think that's the case here. But I don't blame you, it's hard when you're speaking from a place of entitlement.

Oh snap!
yang.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/1/2013 2:51:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/31/2013 8:03:00 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

Yeah, this seems like a good thing... Guy gets insecure because the female makes more money? Probably not a genetic trait worth being passed down. Also that guy is an @ss.

Why are you assuming that its the male initiating the divorce and not the female?
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/1/2013 7:15:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/1/2013 2:51:35 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/31/2013 8:03:00 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 5/31/2013 1:20:00 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Well considering how this often leads to divorce when the female makes more than the male, I'd say it is quite a bad thing.

Yeah, this seems like a good thing... Guy gets insecure because the female makes more money? Probably not a genetic trait worth being passed down. Also that guy is an @ss.

Why are you assuming that its the male initiating the divorce and not the female?

Because there isn't a phone in the kitchen to call the lawyer?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/2/2013 5:13:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So, 40% of women are breadwinners, yet they only make 77% as much as men?

Are fewer men working, or is one of these stats wrong?
My work here is, finally, done.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/2/2013 8:00:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/2/2013 5:13:48 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, 40% of women are breadwinners, yet they only make 77% as much as men?

Are fewer men working, or is one of these stats wrong?

There are more single-parent families now, and those stats are within the field. Women make less than men do for the same job.
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/2/2013 9:22:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's just as easy to marry rich as it is poor. And being that money is the number one reason for divorce.................................
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/2/2013 11:30:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/2/2013 5:13:48 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, 40% of women are breadwinners, yet they only make 77% as much as men?

Are fewer men working, or is one of these stats wrong?

The 77% is on a per-job basis. So it depends on the comparison of the jobs of the married couple. I imagine a female doctor would make more than a male waiter, even if the female doctor is making only 77% of male doctors and even if the male waiter is making 30% more than female waiters.

Take 10 jobs with salaries ranging from $10k to $100k (at $10k increments) for men with women making 77% of those salaries for the same job.

If you pair the men and women with the same jobs, none of the women would be "breadwinners." However, if you took the woman making $7.7k for the first job, and paired her up with the man making $100k for the tenth job, and shifted the rest down (so that the woman making $15.4k for the second job is paired with the man making $10k for the first job, and so forth), then you'd have 90% of the women being "breadwinners;" Only the $100/$7.7 pair would have the man making more than his wife, despite the men, on average, per-job, making more.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/3/2013 3:25:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Royal and Drafter...

Thank you for your responses. However, they were unnecessary, as I realized today that "breadwinner" does not mean what I thought it meant when I made my comment. I thought breadwinner makes more than others do, which implies there are others who make money. In other words, I thought breadwinner was a term for two-income families.

Since it is not, I fully recant my point.

Drafter, I know that the 77% stat is job:job, but, had breadwinner meant two incomes, I would find it difficult to believe the stat. (I do disbelieve the stat regardless, as I have never known a woman to make less than a man for the same job in similar circumstances, and I have had over 40 jobs)

Royal, do you think the fact that there are more single-parent families is a good thing? If not, I don't see why this stat is celebrated as it seems to be.
My work here is, finally, done.