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ALLAHU' AKBAR! Bump!!!

YYW
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6/21/2013 7:02:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2013 5:21:15 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Be aware! shouting in Arabic can cost you your life in Jerusalem:

http://world.time.com...

http://www.cbsnews.com...

This thread lacks merit or value.
airmax1227
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6/21/2013 7:17:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's not shouting in Arabic, it's shouting "Allhu Akbar" at a Jewish holy site that has significant and legitimate security concerns.

While I don't know all of the details, and can't read this guys mind, if I were suicidal, this is one specific way I could go about it.

This seems to be a variation on the "death by cop" scenario.

Avoid screaming "Allhu Akbar" in a place where security is worried about terrorism from people who tend to scream "Allhu Akbar" before they blow themselves up, and you will have a decreased chance of being shot.

It's also worth noting that this was a Jewish Israeli, who must have realized the consequences of this action.

Either way, the OP is intentionally misleading, and demeans her general point of view and whatever position she is trying to take here.
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Fruitytree
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6/21/2013 7:24:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well I do agree I wouldn't have shouted like him and really wonder what he had in mind ?!

But still isn't the place enough secure? and the security guard wasn't he too quick to kill this man that he said was suspicious for both shouting Allahu Akbar and having his hands in his pockets ?!

Also the Idea that terrorists shout Allahu Akbar before they do their job is a bit Hollywood Clich".
airmax1227
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6/21/2013 7:38:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2013 7:24:53 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Well I do agree I wouldn't have shouted like him and really wonder what he had in mind ?!

Sounds like a suicide attempt to me. But who knows... I don't have any idea what he was thinking, though he may have been mentally ill.

But still isn't the place enough secure? and the security guard wasn't he too quick to kill this man that he said was suspicious for both shouting Allahu Akbar and having his hands in his pockets ?!


There is no place that is "enough secure". Anything is possible, and every security agent in Israel naturally needs to be vigilant and aware. A man with his hands in his pockets screaming what this man was is an obvious red flag. I'm not sure of the exact details on how quick he was to shot the guy, but the article you posted says this:

"CBS Radio News correspondent Robert Berger said the man was also seen going to pull something from his pocket just before the guard opened fire."

Seems like he fired right on time, just as he was probably trained to do.

Also the Idea that terrorists shout Allahu Akbar before they do their job is a bit Hollywood Clich".

It might be. But it's also something that actually happens. The man was acting suspiciously, starting screaming "Allhu Akbar", then reached into his pocket and got shot at that point.

I think the most important thing to take from this, is that anti-Israel propagandizing attempts like "shouting in Arabic can cost you your life in Jerusalem" is just nonsense. And that screaming "Allhu Akbar" in a likely attempt to commit suicide, will likely end up with the person successfully committing suicide.

Based on the information I've gathered, I feel bad for the victim here, the security guard.
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YYW
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6/21/2013 7:39:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2013 7:24:53 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Well I do agree I wouldn't have shouted like him and really wonder what he had in mind ?!

But still isn't the place enough secure? and the security guard wasn't he too quick to kill this man that he said was suspicious for both shouting Allahu Akbar and having his hands in his pockets ?!

Also the Idea that terrorists shout Allahu Akbar before they do their job is a bit Hollywood Clich".

Perhaps one should add another commandment:

Thou shalt not shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/22/2013 1:02:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Allahu Akbar means "god is the greatest." I don't see anything wrong with saying that and I don't think just saying that should make a person more likely to get shot.
YYW
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6/22/2013 1:10:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2013 1:02:48 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Allahu Akbar means "god is the greatest." I don't see anything wrong with saying that and I don't think just saying that should make a person more likely to get shot.

I don't think that the meaning of the phrase is what raises concern -so much is that Allah Akbar is the phrase that fundamentalist suicide bombers have been known to shout before they carry out an attack of some sort.
johnnyboy54
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6/22/2013 1:12:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2013 1:02:48 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Allahu Akbar means "god is the greatest." I don't see anything wrong with saying that and I don't think just saying that should make a person more likely to get shot.

It is often said before a suicide bomber detonates in a crowded area.
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bladerunner060
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6/22/2013 1:16:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2013 1:02:48 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Allahu Akbar means "god is the greatest." I don't see anything wrong with saying that and I don't think just saying that should make a person more likely to get shot.

Shouting it while behaving suspiciously in a place that is a likely target of a bombing or a shooting, though, is VERY likely to get a person shot, and I'm not sure it shouldn't. I think the reports we have are too sketchy, and make me think of the last scene from "Falling Down".

As regards the "hollywood cliche":

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

I'm pretty sure it's a common "last words" prior to atrocity. Of course, it is ALSO common "thing frequently said in general", too.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/22/2013 3:22:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I understand that suicide bombers say it before bombing. However, muslims should still have religious freedom to call their god great regardless of whether suicide bombers have also done so. The fact that people have called their god great before blowing stuff up shouldn't restrict their own freedom through no fault of theirs.

This isn't analogous to saying fire in a crowded theater. For one, the person calling fire is lying and inciting panic. Someone saying Allahu Akbar is not "lying" at least in a sense that the truth value of their statement cannot be determined. They sincerely believe it to be true. They may be inciting a panic. Yet, this panic is not a fault of theirs. They should have a right to call their god great regardless of whether terrorists have also done so.
bladerunner060
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6/22/2013 3:36:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2013 3:22:59 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I understand that suicide bombers say it before bombing. However, muslims should still have religious freedom to call their god great regardless of whether suicide bombers have also done so. The fact that people have called their god great before blowing stuff up shouldn't restrict their own freedom through no fault of theirs.

This isn't analogous to saying fire in a crowded theater. For one, the person calling fire is lying and inciting panic. Someone saying Allahu Akbar is not "lying" at least in a sense that the truth value of their statement cannot be determined. They sincerely believe it to be true. They may be inciting a panic. Yet, this panic is not a fault of theirs. They should have a right to call their god great regardless of whether terrorists have also done so.

I think you might be ignoring the broader context of the man's actions, though. Suspicious behavior, shouting it with his hands in his pockets, while in a place that violence has occurred in the past by people behaving just like him...while we still don't have enough information to really say much about it, at the same time, the most likely scenario at present seems to me to be that he was expressly making himself appear like an iminent threat.
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Mirza
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6/22/2013 10:56:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
First -- I understand both viewpoints presented here. It's on one hand quite sad that these holy words can be misunderstood and cause negative reactions -- and it happens to be understandable, because people who say these words in public gatherings where not many Muslims are present often tend to do it for negative reasons.

Second -- It's a complete SHAME that so many Muslims have used these words only to take away innocent lives. That's ONLY the fault of our own people, and nobody else. When an idiot goes to a marketplace filled with innocent people, who happen to follow Islam too, and takes their lives after shouting Allahu Akhbar, then we shouldn't expect the world to not take these kind of actions with care. They will.

There was a time when Muslims preserved Jewish history and gave them protection. Shame we now create hatred between us and our neighbours.
imabench
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6/22/2013 11:17:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2013 5:21:15 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Be aware! shouting in Arabic can cost you your life in Jerusalem:

http://world.time.com...

http://www.cbsnews.com...

Just because you hear someone speak Arabic it doesnt mean they are shouting, thats very racist to think ;D
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wrichcirw
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6/22/2013 11:30:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2013 7:24:53 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Well I do agree I wouldn't have shouted like him and really wonder what he had in mind ?!

But still isn't the place enough secure? and the security guard wasn't he too quick to kill this man that he said was suspicious for both shouting Allahu Akbar and having his hands in his pockets ?!

Also the Idea that terrorists shout Allahu Akbar before they do their job is a bit Hollywood Clich".

It is not cliche.

http://www.nypost.com...

"Muslim [Army] major screamed 'Allahu Akbar' before slaughtering 13 at Ft. Hood"

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.chron.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Fruitytree
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6/24/2013 7:29:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2013 1:10:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 6/22/2013 1:02:48 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Allahu Akbar means "god is the greatest." I don't see anything wrong with saying that and I don't think just saying that should make a person more likely to get shot.

I don't think that the meaning of the phrase is what raises concern -so much is that Allah Akbar is the phrase that fundamentalist suicide bombers have been known to shout before they carry out an attack of some sort.

That's true for movies, we say that phrase in those occasions:Prayer, exclamation, remembrance of God, Joy, astonishment, you could say an average Muslim would say it at least 100 times a day, but who cares.What bothers me the most is that I really thought that Holy place was secure!! now it looks like it isn't , which really is strange!
Fruitytree
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6/24/2013 7:33:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2013 11:17:13 AM, imabench wrote:
At 6/21/2013 5:21:15 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Be aware! shouting in Arabic can cost you your life in Jerusalem:

http://world.time.com...

http://www.cbsnews.com...

Just because you hear someone speak Arabic it doesnt mean they are shouting, thats very racist to think ;D

I tried to do the amalgam a true journalist wouldn't miss ;)
Fruitytree
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6/24/2013 7:36:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2013 11:30:40 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/21/2013 7:24:53 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Well I do agree I wouldn't have shouted like him and really wonder what he had in mind ?!

But still isn't the place enough secure? and the security guard wasn't he too quick to kill this man that he said was suspicious for both shouting Allahu Akbar and having his hands in his pockets ?!

Also the Idea that terrorists shout Allahu Akbar before they do their job is a bit Hollywood Clich".

It is not cliche.

http://www.nypost.com...

"Muslim [Army] major screamed 'Allahu Akbar' before slaughtering 13 at Ft. Hood"

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.chron.com...

Well in short what I meant is Allah Akbar isn't for that purpose, sure it was used for terrorism, but it isn't a synonym, nor does it imply it.
wrichcirw
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6/24/2013 7:58:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2013 7:36:15 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/22/2013 11:30:40 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/21/2013 7:24:53 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Well I do agree I wouldn't have shouted like him and really wonder what he had in mind ?!

But still isn't the place enough secure? and the security guard wasn't he too quick to kill this man that he said was suspicious for both shouting Allahu Akbar and having his hands in his pockets ?!

Also the Idea that terrorists shout Allahu Akbar before they do their job is a bit Hollywood Clich".

It is not cliche.

http://www.nypost.com...

"Muslim [Army] major screamed 'Allahu Akbar' before slaughtering 13 at Ft. Hood"

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.chron.com...

Well in short what I meant is Allah Akbar isn't for that purpose, sure it was used for terrorism, but it isn't a synonym, nor does it imply it.

Madlibs time:
Well in short what I meant is "Fire" isn't for the purpose of causing mass stampedes in a crowded theater. Sure, it was used for such a purpose, but it isn't a synonym, nor does it imply it.

REGARDLESS, if you yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, you will be arrested for causing a public disturbance.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Fruitytree
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6/24/2013 8:25:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What ? are you comparing "fire" with "Allah is the greatest" ?! and did anyone care for the exclamation of the Jew ? He just was killed for it, I never heard that Allahu Akbar cause any harm or situation similar to the one you are comparing it to!
wrichcirw
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6/24/2013 8:44:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2013 8:25:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
What ? are you comparing "fire" with "Allah is the greatest" ?! and did anyone care for the exclamation of the Jew ? He just was killed for it, I never heard that Allahu Akbar cause any harm or situation similar to the one you are comparing it to!

Because unlike yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, yelling "Allahu Akbar" at inopportune moments precedes the proclaimer engaging in acts of heinous violence, typically with a remote detonation device hidden in one's pocket.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
the_croftmeister
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6/24/2013 9:14:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2013 8:44:26 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/24/2013 8:25:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
What ? are you comparing "fire" with "Allah is the greatest" ?! and did anyone care for the exclamation of the Jew ? He just was killed for it, I never heard that Allahu Akbar cause any harm or situation similar to the one you are comparing it to!

Because unlike yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, yelling "Allahu Akbar" at inopportune moments precedes the proclaimer engaging in acts of heinous violence, typically with a remote detonation device hidden in one's pocket.

Well said
Fruitytree
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6/25/2013 6:19:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2013 8:44:26 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/24/2013 8:25:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
What ? are you comparing "fire" with "Allah is the greatest" ?! and did anyone care for the exclamation of the Jew ? He just was killed for it, I never heard that Allahu Akbar cause any harm or situation similar to the one you are comparing it to!

Because unlike yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, yelling "Allahu Akbar" at inopportune moments precedes the proclaimer engaging in acts of heinous violence, typically with a remote detonation device hidden in one's pocket.

There are 2 questions that arise ? do terrorists that claim Islam, always shout that phrase before their act? and do all Muslims that shout that phrase automatically do it for terrorist (or to extend it) holy war purpose ?The answer is no for both.

I think you guys are becoming paranoid, I can understand why, but this still is paranoia and exaggeration. as I said before Allahu Akbar is really an exclamation we use very often, now if for you it automatically is a threat, then something is wrong.The other question, and as the place of the "incident" isn't any place, how can they expect a man with a bomb be there ?! isn't the place secured ???
wrichcirw
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6/26/2013 12:59:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/25/2013 6:19:31 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 6/24/2013 8:44:26 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/24/2013 8:25:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
What ? are you comparing "fire" with "Allah is the greatest" ?! and did anyone care for the exclamation of the Jew ? He just was killed for it, I never heard that Allahu Akbar cause any harm or situation similar to the one you are comparing it to!

Because unlike yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, yelling "Allahu Akbar" at inopportune moments precedes the proclaimer engaging in acts of heinous violence, typically with a remote detonation device hidden in one's pocket.



There are 2 questions that arise ? do terrorists that claim Islam, always shout that phrase before their act? and do all Muslims that shout that phrase automatically do it for terrorist (or to extend it) holy war purpose ?The answer is no for both.

If it "always" happened, then I would guarantee you that the US and any other country with a problem with radical Islam would be deporting any and all Muslims that speak Arabic and would probably forbid the language being used within their borders. That it "only" occurs "sometimes" leads to incidents like the one you cite.

Imagine if an American who shouted "Liberty and Freedom" was "always" associated with pulling out an M-16 and gunning down Muslims. I'm also 100% certain Muslim countries would deport Americans and forbid English from being spoken within their borders.

I think you guys are becoming paranoid, I can understand why, but this still is paranoia and exaggeration. as I said before Allahu Akbar is really an exclamation we use very often, now if for you it automatically is a threat, then something is wrong.The other question, and as the place of the "incident" isn't any place, how can they expect a man with a bomb be there ?! isn't the place secured ???

Maybe the bomb is nearby. Maybe a car is driving by laden with explosives. Who knows? Why take the risk? For it to happen once would already warrant additional security measures. It has already happened numerous times.

Why does the man have his hands in his pocket while proclaiming Allahu Akbar? Shouldn't they be pointing at Allah?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
1Devilsadvocate
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6/26/2013 6:31:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/26/2013 12:59:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
... Why does the man have his hands in his pocket while proclaiming Allah Akbar? Shouldn't they be pointing at Allah?

BTW. He wasn't even Arab or Muslim, he was a Jew who apparently was trying to commit suicide by cop.
The fact that he looked like a Jew, made him all the more suspicious. Why would someone who looks like a Jew be yelling Allah Akbar, unless he's a terrorist in disguise.
So you have this Jewish looking guy yell Allah Akbar, in probably THE prime terrorist location, keeping his hand in his pocket. What would you do if you're responsible for the safety of hundreds of people?
The only possible argument is that he should have gone for the legs. This is not a valid complaint for a number of reasons not the least of which is the fact that he could still trigger the detonator.

((Now, if we look at the other side of the western wall, which is controlled by the Muslim Waqf & is considered by Judaism to be the most holy place in the world. The Muslim Waqf does not allow any Jews to go there at all. On rare occasions, when a group is given permission to go there, they may not pray, or even look like they are praying. This includes moving one's lips, closing one's eyes, or swaying.
As a general rule, most of the Muslim quarter is off limit for Israeli's (while Muslims and Arabs walk through the Jewish quarter freely). There here have been numerous incidents of Israeli's getting stabbed, lynched, stoned, beaten etc. When they make a wrong turn and find themselves in the Muslim quarter.))

Finally, even if the individual was wrong, it's irrational & and irresponsible to go make general statements on the basis of a single incedent involving single individual. This would be a good textbook example of the Hasty Generalisation Fallacy.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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benevolent
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6/26/2013 6:50:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/26/2013 6:49:42 PM, benevolent wrote:
Wow this dude made quite the statement with his suicide.

Seems he went about it in a rather artsy, self-justifying manner.
wrichcirw
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6/26/2013 6:58:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/26/2013 6:31:13 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 6/26/2013 12:59:19 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
... Why does the man have his hands in his pocket while proclaiming Allah Akbar? Shouldn't they be pointing at Allah?

BTW. He wasn't even Arab or Muslim, he was a Jew who apparently was trying to commit suicide by cop.
The fact that he looked like a Jew, made him all the more suspicious. Why would someone who looks like a Jew be yelling Allah Akbar, unless he's a terrorist in disguise.
So you have this Jewish looking guy yell Allah Akbar, in probably THE prime terrorist location, keeping his hand in his pocket. What would you do if you're responsible for the safety of hundreds of people?
The only possible argument is that he should have gone for the legs. This is not a valid complaint for a number of reasons not the least of which is the fact that he could still trigger the detonator.

I don't know about you, but I can't make the determination of someone's religious preference within 10 seconds and without any dialogue. Initial reports involved "a man who appeared suspicious".

Your 20/20 hindsight analysis of the situation is not relevant to the matter at hand.

((Now, if we look at the other side of the western wall, which is controlled by the Muslim Waqf & is considered by Judaism to be the most holy place in the world. The Muslim Waqf does not allow any Jews to go there at all. On rare occasions, when a group is given permission to go there, they may not pray, or even look like they are praying. This includes moving one's lips, closing one's eyes, or swaying.
As a general rule, most of the Muslim quarter is off limit for Israeli's (while Muslims and Arabs walk through the Jewish quarter freely). There here have been numerous incidents of Israeli's getting stabbed, lynched, stoned, beaten etc. When they make a wrong turn and find themselves in the Muslim quarter.))

Finally, even if the individual was wrong, it's irrational & and irresponsible to go make general statements on the basis of a single incedent involving single individual. This would be a good textbook example of the Hasty Generalisation Fallacy.

I would forward arguments if I knew exactly what point you were attempting to make here. Which individual are you talking about?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?