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Egypts messed up

Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/1/2013 2:59:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

American military aid to Egypt: $1.3 billion

http://www.reuters.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/1/2013 6:22:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

It is disconcerting that the Egyptian military is issuing ultimatums to existing political powers (because of the fairly dangerous precedent that sets for future leaders, and the negative impact it would have to Egypt's democratic transition). But, the Egyptian people have taken considerable measures to countermand Morsi's rule, which has been characterized by an increasing turn to an Islamist social order. The fact that the Egyptian military has stated that it is acting on behalf of "the demands of the people" and out of patriotic duty is only moderately reassuring, but it is more reassuring than anything the Muslim Brotherhood, Morsi or his advisors have said.

All of that being established, I don't think it's completely fair to say that Egypt is "messed up." The process of political development and movement towards a more democratic governmental order is usually a tumultuous one. While we would like for everything to fall into order and for peaceful transfers of power to take place, I think it is likely better for Egypt that they deal with their problems now (Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood) rather than wait for his/their rule to become more entrenched.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/1/2013 6:55:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's definitely a messy SITUATION, but Egypt is by no means messed up itself.

It takes a while to for a country to settle politically, especially after a massive political upheaval/change.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/1/2013 7:21:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 6:22:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

It is disconcerting that the Egyptian military is issuing ultimatums to existing political powers (because of the fairly dangerous precedent that sets for future leaders, and the negative impact it would have to Egypt's democratic transition).

Pfffffffft.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/1/2013 7:25:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 7:21:27 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/1/2013 6:22:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

It is disconcerting that the Egyptian military is issuing ultimatums to existing political powers (because of the fairly dangerous precedent that sets for future leaders, and the negative impact it would have to Egypt's democratic transition).

Pfffffffft.

How cynical of you, Eitan.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 6:34:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 7:25:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 7:21:27 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/1/2013 6:22:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

It is disconcerting that the Egyptian military is issuing ultimatums to existing political powers (because of the fairly dangerous precedent that sets for future leaders, and the negative impact it would have to Egypt's democratic transition).

Pfffffffft.

How cynical of you, Eitan.

I'm sure that Westerners imagined enlightened liberal democrats in the crowds of the Iranian revolution, but pity they haven't availed themselves to pass on their newfound wisdom to the next generation.

Where exactly do you see the democratic movement in the Arab world? No one wants it and no one cares- especially not in a country with 72% illiteracy rate and an exploding population. The only model that has proven successful is the kingship, and that's far too alien to get Westerners to endorse it despite being the best, most effective and easily least corrupt government available to those countries. Most of them have balances of power and some of them even have quasi-democratic parliaments that exist only because of the stability a royal family can provide. Jordan and Saudi Arabia are the models that the Arab countries should follow, not Egypt or Iraq.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/2/2013 6:37:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:34:13 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/1/2013 7:25:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 7:21:27 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/1/2013 6:22:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

It is disconcerting that the Egyptian military is issuing ultimatums to existing political powers (because of the fairly dangerous precedent that sets for future leaders, and the negative impact it would have to Egypt's democratic transition).

Pfffffffft.

How cynical of you, Eitan.

I'm sure that Westerners imagined enlightened liberal democrats in the crowds of the Iranian revolution, but pity they haven't availed themselves to pass on their newfound wisdom to the next generation.

Where exactly do you see the democratic movement in the Arab world? No one wants it and no one cares- especially not in a country with 72% illiteracy rate and an exploding population. The only model that has proven successful is the kingship, and that's far too alien to get Westerners to endorse it despite being the best, most effective and easily least corrupt government available to those countries. Most of them have balances of power and some of them even have quasi-democratic parliaments that exist only because of the stability a royal family can provide. Jordan and Saudi Arabia are the models that the Arab countries should follow, not Egypt or Iraq.

That there are significant roadblocks to democratic progress in the middle east does not mean that democracy is impossible in the middle east. And Jordan is a miserable place... just sayin'
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/2/2013 6:40:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.

I would rather be ruled by a leader I elected who reflected my values.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 6:42:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:37:05 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:34:13 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/1/2013 7:25:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 7:21:27 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/1/2013 6:22:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/1/2013 1:07:43 PM, Cermank wrote:
Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own road map for the country. http://reut.rs...

A dramatic statement declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

It is disconcerting that the Egyptian military is issuing ultimatums to existing political powers (because of the fairly dangerous precedent that sets for future leaders, and the negative impact it would have to Egypt's democratic transition).

Pfffffffft.

How cynical of you, Eitan.

I'm sure that Westerners imagined enlightened liberal democrats in the crowds of the Iranian revolution, but pity they haven't availed themselves to pass on their newfound wisdom to the next generation.

Where exactly do you see the democratic movement in the Arab world? No one wants it and no one cares- especially not in a country with 72% illiteracy rate and an exploding population. The only model that has proven successful is the kingship, and that's far too alien to get Westerners to endorse it despite being the best, most effective and easily least corrupt government available to those countries. Most of them have balances of power and some of them even have quasi-democratic parliaments that exist only because of the stability a royal family can provide. Jordan and Saudi Arabia are the models that the Arab countries should follow, not Egypt or Iraq.

That there are significant roadblocks to democratic progress in the middle east does not mean that democracy is impossible in the middle east.

Define 'impossible.'

And Jordan is a miserable place... just sayin'

Why should that be the fault of the government? They wound up with a desert without the typical huge oil deposits of the Middle East and are practically landlocked. I'm not even sure that they have any rivers, and are dependent on Israel for fresh water. Of course it's goddamn miserable. It is, however, an island of stability in a sea of chaos.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 6:43:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:40:46 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.

I would rather be ruled by a leader I elected who reflected my values.

Considering I probably can't read and don't have any opinion beyond what my mullah tells me, why should my opinion be given any credence? The military at least is rational.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/2/2013 6:48:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:43:46 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:40:46 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.

I would rather be ruled by a leader I elected who reflected my values.

Considering I probably can't read and don't have any opinion beyond what my mullah tells me, why should my opinion be given any credence? The military at least is rational.

It amazes me how cynical people can me... and how shortsighted. Literacy rates can change, through the improvement of educational infrastructure. No one is disputing the extent to which democratic progression is a challenge -but it can happen.

Americans, especially, seem to have this idea that overnight a country should operate like the United States... peaceful power transfers, established and moderate political parties, etc. but the fact remains that such a hope is no more than a fantasy. Political change is almost never without bloodshed, struggle and tribulation -but that is NO reason not to strive for democratic progression in states where people are not ruled by democratically elected leaders.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/2/2013 6:57:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:48:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:43:46 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:40:46 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.

I would rather be ruled by a leader I elected who reflected my values.

Considering I probably can't read and don't have any opinion beyond what my mullah tells me, why should my opinion be given any credence? The military at least is rational.

It amazes me how cynical people can me... and how shortsighted. Literacy rates can change, through the improvement of educational infrastructure. No one is disputing the extent to which democratic progression is a challenge -but it can happen.

Americans, especially, seem to have this idea that overnight a country should operate like the United States... peaceful power transfers, established and moderate political parties, etc. but the fact remains that such a hope is no more than a fantasy. Political change is almost never without bloodshed, struggle and tribulation -but that is NO reason not to strive for democratic progression in states where people are not ruled by democratically elected leaders.

Yeah, I'm not saying that they can't have some semblance of democracy in Egypt in, say, fifty to a hundred years. But with a population like that? Abdul Nasser gave them free education in the fifties and this is where they're at. They can only start improving their country when the population growth cools off, they have vastly better living standards, and the government remains stable. And that's only the beginning of the path- eventually, after a suitably large middle class emerges and critical social changes take place, we might see an actual Arab model of democracy (which might not be at all inferior to our own).

Look at Turkey. You think they were ever resembled modern-day Egypt in the past century? Their system evolved from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Different values, different history, and different society.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/3/2013 11:25:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/2/2013 6:57:29 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:48:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:43:46 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:40:46 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.

I would rather be ruled by a leader I elected who reflected my values.

Considering I probably can't read and don't have any opinion beyond what my mullah tells me, why should my opinion be given any credence? The military at least is rational.

It amazes me how cynical people can me... and how shortsighted. Literacy rates can change, through the improvement of educational infrastructure. No one is disputing the extent to which democratic progression is a challenge -but it can happen.

Americans, especially, seem to have this idea that overnight a country should operate like the United States... peaceful power transfers, established and moderate political parties, etc. but the fact remains that such a hope is no more than a fantasy. Political change is almost never without bloodshed, struggle and tribulation -but that is NO reason not to strive for democratic progression in states where people are not ruled by democratically elected leaders.

Yeah, I'm not saying that they can't have some semblance of democracy in Egypt in, say, fifty to a hundred years. But with a population like that? Abdul Nasser gave them free education in the fifties and this is where they're at. They can only start improving their country when the population growth cools off, they have vastly better living standards, and the government remains stable. And that's only the beginning of the path- eventually, after a suitably large middle class emerges and critical social changes take place, we might see an actual Arab model of democracy (which might not be at all inferior to our own).

Look at Turkey. You think they were ever resembled modern-day Egypt in the past century? Their system evolved from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Different values, different history, and different society.

Ataturk fixed Turkey, although there remains even today much progress to be made. Nasser was no Ataturk.
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/3/2013 2:12:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
News sources are reporting that tanks have moved in on Cairo to enforce the consequences of Morsi's decision to ignore the will of the Egyptian people. The Muslim Brotherhood is pretending that Morsi is the victim (and claiming that this is a military coup), which is to be expected. What Morsi fails to realize is that this is something he brought entirely on himself. If he had not have fvcked the Egyptian economy, and kept his Muslim Brotherhood thugs at bay then this wouldn't have ever come to fruition. The more I read of his behavior, and that of the Muslim Brotherhood, the more disgusted I become with both.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/3/2013 4:41:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 2:12:57 PM, YYW wrote:
News sources are reporting that tanks have moved in on Cairo to enforce the consequences of Morsi's decision to ignore the will of the Egyptian people. The Muslim Brotherhood is pretending that Morsi is the victim (and claiming that this is a military coup), which is to be expected. What Morsi fails to realize is that this is something he brought entirely on himself. If he had not have fvcked the Egyptian economy, and kept his Muslim Brotherhood thugs at bay then this wouldn't have ever come to fruition. The more I read of his behavior, and that of the Muslim Brotherhood, the more disgusted I become with both.

This reads more like a propaganda statement than anything else. The Egyptian economy was messed up from the beginning, I remember a former ambassador to Egypt was quite candid about this when Mubarak was ousted from power.

The Muslim Brotherhood "thugs" were democratically elected to power. Morsi has abused this power, yes, but to demand a military coup as a solution, a military which receives significant funding from outside sources (in this case the US, which thus questions the military's true loyalties - to the Egyptian people or its foreign sponsors?), is not reasonable and stinks of a greater strategic picture at play as opposed to any real appeal to justice or democracy for Egyptian citizens.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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7/3/2013 4:48:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 11:25:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:57:29 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:48:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:43:46 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:40:46 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.

I would rather be ruled by a leader I elected who reflected my values.

Considering I probably can't read and don't have any opinion beyond what my mullah tells me, why should my opinion be given any credence? The military at least is rational.

It amazes me how cynical people can me... and how shortsighted. Literacy rates can change, through the improvement of educational infrastructure. No one is disputing the extent to which democratic progression is a challenge -but it can happen.

Americans, especially, seem to have this idea that overnight a country should operate like the United States... peaceful power transfers, established and moderate political parties, etc. but the fact remains that such a hope is no more than a fantasy. Political change is almost never without bloodshed, struggle and tribulation -but that is NO reason not to strive for democratic progression in states where people are not ruled by democratically elected leaders.

Yeah, I'm not saying that they can't have some semblance of democracy in Egypt in, say, fifty to a hundred years. But with a population like that? Abdul Nasser gave them free education in the fifties and this is where they're at. They can only start improving their country when the population growth cools off, they have vastly better living standards, and the government remains stable. And that's only the beginning of the path- eventually, after a suitably large middle class emerges and critical social changes take place, we might see an actual Arab model of democracy (which might not be at all inferior to our own).

Look at Turkey. You think they were ever resembled modern-day Egypt in the past century? Their system evolved from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Different values, different history, and different society.

Ataturk fixed Turkey, although there remains even today much progress to be made. Nasser was no Ataturk.

Turkey is the most powerful state in the Middle East, both militarily and economically, and is the most stable, even regarding the recent protests against Erdogan. I've made a case before that it is going to be the next great Muslim power, and while it may not be as 'Westernized' or democratic as you would like, you have to admit that Turkey is a success story.

You can't merely place all the consequences on individuals. The dying Ottoman Empire was still very different from modern day Egypt. I doubt that Nasser could have 'fixed' Egypt even if he had been a genius. Things like that are generational changes.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/4/2013 12:07:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 4:48:53 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/3/2013 11:25:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:57:29 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:48:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:43:46 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:40:46 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/2/2013 6:38:08 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
In the meantime, the Egyptian army acts as a stabilizing force on the country and prevents the Egyptian state from collapsing. If I was an Egyptian, I'd think that I'd be better ruled by a military junta than by whatever warlord that happens to expand his territory over my area.

I would rather be ruled by a leader I elected who reflected my values.

Considering I probably can't read and don't have any opinion beyond what my mullah tells me, why should my opinion be given any credence? The military at least is rational.

It amazes me how cynical people can me... and how shortsighted. Literacy rates can change, through the improvement of educational infrastructure. No one is disputing the extent to which democratic progression is a challenge -but it can happen.

Americans, especially, seem to have this idea that overnight a country should operate like the United States... peaceful power transfers, established and moderate political parties, etc. but the fact remains that such a hope is no more than a fantasy. Political change is almost never without bloodshed, struggle and tribulation -but that is NO reason not to strive for democratic progression in states where people are not ruled by democratically elected leaders.

Yeah, I'm not saying that they can't have some semblance of democracy in Egypt in, say, fifty to a hundred years. But with a population like that? Abdul Nasser gave them free education in the fifties and this is where they're at. They can only start improving their country when the population growth cools off, they have vastly better living standards, and the government remains stable. And that's only the beginning of the path- eventually, after a suitably large middle class emerges and critical social changes take place, we might see an actual Arab model of democracy (which might not be at all inferior to our own).

Look at Turkey. You think they were ever resembled modern-day Egypt in the past century? Their system evolved from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. Different values, different history, and different society.

Ataturk fixed Turkey, although there remains even today much progress to be made. Nasser was no Ataturk.

Turkey is the most powerful state in the Middle East, both militarily and economically, and is the most stable, even regarding the recent protests against Erdogan. I've made a case before that it is going to be the next great Muslim power, and while it may not be as 'Westernized' or democratic as you would like, you have to admit that Turkey is a success story.

You can't merely place all the consequences on individuals. The dying Ottoman Empire was still very different from modern day Egypt. I doubt that Nasser could have 'fixed' Egypt even if he had been a genius. Things like that are generational changes.



The point was that Ataturk got that process started. Most changes that are significant are generational changes, though.
Eitan_Zohar
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7/4/2013 12:12:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 12:07:26 PM, YYW wrote:
The point was that Ataturk got that process started. Most changes that are significant are generational changes, though.

Yeah, well, do you see Egypt even beginning to go along that path? The military has always controlled the country, whether directly or indirectly.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,240
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7/4/2013 12:16:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/4/2013 12:12:53 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 7/4/2013 12:07:26 PM, YYW wrote:
The point was that Ataturk got that process started. Most changes that are significant are generational changes, though.

Yeah, well, do you see Egypt even beginning to go along that path? The military has always controlled the country, whether directly or indirectly.

Time will tell, but I'd like to hope so. I like the Egyptian military, though -but I make room for the possibility that my fondness for the Egyptian military could be principally because of their disposition towards the Muslim Brotherhood.
lewis20
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7/4/2013 12:27:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I honestly think they just like partying in the streets.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

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