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Kitten Nearly Dies From Vegan Diet

DetectableNinja
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7/21/2013 9:55:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
For fvck's sake. Honestly.

Don't people realize cats are fvcking CARNIVORES? Meaning, y'know, they HAVE to eat meat to fvcking survive?!
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
vbaculum
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7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Subutai
Posts: 3,235
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7/24/2013 9:52:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I hate the "Vegan" question. Whether or not a particular animal thrives or nearly dies from a vegan diet isn't the result of the diet itself, but what kind of diet the animal is biologically designed to be herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous. Cats' physiological processes mean that cats process meat the best, and it has been documented that cats have difficulty digesting plants. 20% of a cats' diet needs to be protein, which most plants don't have. Their gastrointestinal tract is designed for meat consumption. Cats can experience severe nutritional deficiencies with no protein.

Humans, on the other hand, are omnivorous. Over time, the genetic specialization of some cultures have caused some cultures to eat a primarily vegetarian diet, while others have been based off of a primarily carnivorous diet. Some vitamins, such as B12, can only be primarily found in meat, while fruits and vegetables supply the primary source of fiber. In general, humans need both food groups to function adequately.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Subutai
Posts: 3,235
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7/24/2013 10:04:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 9:52:53 PM, Subutai wrote:
I hate the "Vegan" question. Whether or not a particular animal thrives or nearly dies from a vegan diet isn't the result of the diet in of itself (in other words, just because one species has adverse effects from that diet doesn't mean that that diet's bad for another species), but what kind of diet the animal is biologically designed to be herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous. Cats' physiological processes mean that cats process meat the best, and it has been documented that cats have difficulty digesting plants. 20% of a cats' diet needs to be protein, which most plants don't have. Their gastrointestinal tract is designed for meat consumption. Cats can experience severe nutritional deficiencies with no protein.

Humans, on the other hand, are omnivorous. Over time, the genetic specialization of some cultures have caused some cultures to eat a primarily vegetarian diet, while others have been based off of a primarily carnivorous diet. Some vitamins, such as B12, can only be primarily found in meat, while fruits and vegetables supply the primary source of fiber. In general, humans need both food groups to function adequately.

Basically, cats =/= humans, and saying that a cat's diet should be followed by humans is fallacious and biologically inconsistent with the principles of genetic evolution.

Needed to clarify two things.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/24/2013 10:27:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.

There needs to be a scientific experiment to prove felis catus is carnivorous?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Subutai
Posts: 3,235
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7/24/2013 10:37:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:27:27 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.

There needs to be a scientific experiment to prove felis catus is carnivorous?

Actually, there have been several, and even studies that have shown how cats negatively respond to a plant based diet (see the OP, but there are others).
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/24/2013 10:40:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:37:13 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 7/24/2013 10:27:27 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.

There needs to be a scientific experiment to prove felis catus is carnivorous?

Actually, there have been several, and even studies that have shown how cats negatively respond to a plant based diet (see the OP, but there are others).

I don't question felines' carnivorous nature. I'm saying that even ignoring the fact that studies HAVE been done, it seems fair to draw conclusions based on how species relate to each other, rather than testing the dietary nature of every single species.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Subutai
Posts: 3,235
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7/24/2013 10:41:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:40:05 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/24/2013 10:37:13 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 7/24/2013 10:27:27 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.

There needs to be a scientific experiment to prove felis catus is carnivorous?

Actually, there have been several, and even studies that have shown how cats negatively respond to a plant based diet (see the OP, but there are others).

I don't question felines' carnivorous nature. I'm saying that even ignoring the fact that studies HAVE been done, it seems fair to draw conclusions based on how species relate to each other, rather than testing the dietary nature of every single species.

Yeah, good point. Then again, drawing conclusions about interspecies relations is also a study, so...
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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7/24/2013 10:43:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:27:27 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.

There needs to be a scientific experiment to prove felis catus is carnivorous?

Specifically, I would like to see an experiment done to see what differs health-wise between domestic cats that are raised on a scientifically reasonable vegan diet versus domestic cats raised on the traditional garbage that they are given.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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7/24/2013 10:44:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:43:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/24/2013 10:27:27 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.

There needs to be a scientific experiment to prove felis catus is carnivorous?

Specifically, I would like to see an experiment done to see what differs health-wise between domestic cats that are raised on a scientifically reasonable vegan diet versus domestic cats raised on the traditional garbage that they are given.

Because that's a true dichotomy.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Subutai
Posts: 3,235
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7/24/2013 10:45:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:43:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/24/2013 10:27:27 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/22/2013 12:13:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Vegans aren't delusional. The vast majority of vegans regard cats to be obligate carnivores because that is what most authorities seem to believe. (However, I think there is room for skeptisism on this because there hasn't been any experiments done to prove this conclusivly, as far as I know.)

It's wrong of you to take this one antecdote and use it to make generalization about a group. It also show a failure to think critically, which surprises me because you are normally very logical.

There needs to be a scientific experiment to prove felis catus is carnivorous?

Specifically, I would like to see an experiment done to see what differs health-wise between domestic cats that are raised on a scientifically reasonable vegan diet versus domestic cats raised on the traditional garbage that they are given.

Admittedly, the stuff that most housecats eat is, by no means, their traditional diet, that doesn't take away from the fact that cats are evolutionally designed to be carnivorous. And, there is no doubt that a pure vegan diet for a cat would be horrible. See my first post for more on that.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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7/24/2013 11:14:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:04:54 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 7/24/2013 9:52:53 PM, Subutai wrote:
I hate the "Vegan" question. Whether or not a particular animal thrives or nearly dies from a vegan diet isn't the result of the diet in of itself (in other words, just because one species has adverse effects from that diet doesn't mean that that diet's bad for another species), but what kind of diet the animal is biologically designed to be herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous. Cats' physiological processes mean that cats process meat the best, and it has been documented that cats have difficulty digesting plants. 20% of a cats' diet needs to be protein, which most plants don't have.

Plant-based foods like seeds, grains, beans, lentils and nuts are excellent sources of protein for humans. Humans need protein and vegans are able to easily obtain enough protein from vegetation.

Regarding feline nutritional needs, the amino acid taurine is indeed difficult for cats to obtain from plants. Some producers of vegan cat food have solved this problem by adding mollusks to their cat food. Not technically vegan I suppose but probably not cruel either.

Their gastrointestinal tract is designed for meat consumption. Cats can experience severe nutritional deficiencies with no protein.

Humans, on the other hand, are omnivorous. Over time, the genetic specialization of some cultures have caused some cultures to eat a primarily vegetarian diet, while others have been based off of a primarily carnivorous diet. Some vitamins, such as B12, can only be primarily found in meat, while fruits and vegetables supply the primary source of fiber. In general, humans need both food groups to function adequately.

B12 comes from microorganisms that end up in the guts of cows and pigs. It's easy to create B12 fortified foods that are suitable for vegans.


Basically, cats =/= humans, and saying that a cat's diet should be followed by humans is fallacious and biologically inconsistent with the principles of genetic evolution.

Yes, it's a very reasonable thing to say. But to answer the question, "Can domestic cats be vegan, and if so, what are the health effects of their being vegan?", science has to be done.


Needed to clarify two things.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Subutai
Posts: 3,235
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7/24/2013 11:26:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 11:14:09 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/24/2013 10:04:54 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 7/24/2013 9:52:53 PM, Subutai wrote:
I hate the "Vegan" question. Whether or not a particular animal thrives or nearly dies from a vegan diet isn't the result of the diet in of itself (in other words, just because one species has adverse effects from that diet doesn't mean that that diet's bad for another species), but what kind of diet the animal is biologically designed to be herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous. Cats' physiological processes mean that cats process meat the best, and it has been documented that cats have difficulty digesting plants. 20% of a cats' diet needs to be protein, which most plants don't have.

Plant-based foods like seeds, grains, beans, lentils and nuts are excellent sources of protein for humans. Humans need protein and vegans are able to easily obtain enough protein from vegetation.


Animal protein =/= plant protein. Cats have difficulty digesting plant matter. You're not answering the cat issue here. Also, I agree with your analysis here.
Regarding feline nutritional needs, the amino acid taurine is indeed difficult for cats to obtain from plants. Some producers of vegan cat food have solved this problem by adding mollusks to their cat food. Not technically vegan I suppose but probably not cruel either.


Most of these products, though, continue to leave out several nutritents necessary for the efficient bodily function of cats. Further, cats' diets that contain no animal products can quickly cause malnutrition in a cat.
Their gastrointestinal tract is designed for meat consumption. Cats can experience severe nutritional deficiencies with no protein.

Humans, on the other hand, are omnivorous. Over time, the genetic specialization of some cultures have caused some cultures to eat a primarily vegetarian diet, while others have been based off of a primarily carnivorous diet. Some vitamins, such as B12, can only be primarily found in meat, while fruits and vegetables supply the primary source of fiber. In general, humans need both food groups to function adequately.

B12 comes from microorganisms that end up in the guts of cows and pigs. It's easy to create B12 fortified foods that are suitable for vegans.


There are very few non-animal products that contain B-12. B-12 fortified foods aren't "true" B-12, and it's effect on the body is weakened.

Basically, cats =/= humans, and saying that a cat's diet should be followed by humans is fallacious and biologically inconsistent with the principles of genetic evolution.

Yes, it's a very reasonable thing to say. But to answer the question, "Can domestic cats be vegan, and if so, what are the health effects of their being vegan?", science has to be done.


Yes, there could be more experiments done, or we could just let cats eat what they were evolutionally dictated to eat and stop messing with their food.

Needed to clarify two things.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Sargon
Posts: 524
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7/24/2013 11:28:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think vegetarians can get sufficient amounts of protein without meat, unless I've been deficient for the past seven years.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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7/24/2013 11:33:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 11:28:16 PM, Sargon wrote:
I think vegetarians can get sufficient amounts of protein without meat, unless I've been deficient for the past seven years.
Sure, and if the argument was about whether it was possible for a human to be a vegetarian then you might have something.

On a side note, at what level of complexity do vegans permit the eating of animals? There are plenty of animal microorganisms and there are plenty of plants that are more complex than simple animals. Where do they/you draw the line? Aren't there plant type micro-organisms in the human gut too? I'm just interested if there is some kind of consensus or whether it's a personal thing.
the_croftmeister
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7/24/2013 11:39:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 10:40:05 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I don't question felines' carnivorous nature. I'm saying that even ignoring the fact that studies HAVE been done, it seems fair to draw conclusions based on how species relate to each other, rather than testing the dietary nature of every single species.
I'm not sure that is true, evidence shows that we can survive without meat, and vegans believe this is the desirable path. If we take the approach that all animals that do eat meat should be able to then the vegan's belief is baseless. On the other hand, the vegan is more than welcome to do studies based on different diets and attempt to find, for those animals for which it is possible, a vegan diet even if they would naturally eat meat. This is in line with their beliefs and for those who are ambivalent to the subject is not a problem provided the testing and diet do not adversely affect the quality of life of the animal. i.e. your argument that drawing conclusions based on natural behaviour can yield correct results would do nothing to convince the vegan not to be sceptical that an animal cannot eat a vegan diet.
vbaculum
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7/24/2013 11:47:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 11:33:02 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:28:16 PM, Sargon wrote:
I think vegetarians can get sufficient amounts of protein without meat, unless I've been deficient for the past seven years.
Sure, and if the argument was about whether it was possible for a human to be a vegetarian then you might have something.

On a side note, at what level of complexity do vegans permit the eating of animals? There are plenty of animal microorganisms and there are plenty of plants that are more complex than simple animals. Where do they/you draw the line? Aren't there plant type micro-organisms in the human gut too? I'm just interested if there is some kind of consensus or whether it's a personal thing.

Vegans aren't too different in their ethics than most people. They believe that one should not cause unnecessary pain. So the rule for vegans is: if eating an animal or animal by product causes pain, and there is no dietary need to eat it, then one shouldn't eat it. I don't think anyone (except for maybe Jains) think that microorganisms feel pain so these aren't an issue for vegans.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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7/24/2013 11:53:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 11:26:29 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:14:09 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/24/2013 10:04:54 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 7/24/2013 9:52:53 PM, Subutai wrote:
I hate the "Vegan" question. Whether or not a particular animal thrives or nearly dies from a vegan diet isn't the result of the diet in of itself (in other words, just because one species has adverse effects from that diet doesn't mean that that diet's bad for another species), but what kind of diet the animal is biologically designed to be herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous. Cats' physiological processes mean that cats process meat the best, and it has been documented that cats have difficulty digesting plants. 20% of a cats' diet needs to be protein, which most plants don't have.

Plant-based foods like seeds, grains, beans, lentils and nuts are excellent sources of protein for humans. Humans need protein and vegans are able to easily obtain enough protein from vegetation.


Animal protein =/= plant protein. Cats have difficulty digesting plant matter. You're not answering the cat issue here. Also, I agree with your analysis here.
Regarding feline nutritional needs, the amino acid taurine is indeed difficult for cats to obtain from plants. Some producers of vegan cat food have solved this problem by adding mollusks to their cat food. Not technically vegan I suppose but probably not cruel either.


Most of these products, though, continue to leave out several nutritents necessary for the efficient bodily function of cats. Further, cats' diets that contain no animal products can quickly cause malnutrition in a cat.
Their gastrointestinal tract is designed for meat consumption. Cats can experience severe nutritional deficiencies with no protein.

Humans, on the other hand, are omnivorous. Over time, the genetic specialization of some cultures have caused some cultures to eat a primarily vegetarian diet, while others have been based off of a primarily carnivorous diet. Some vitamins, such as B12, can only be primarily found in meat, while fruits and vegetables supply the primary source of fiber. In general, humans need both food groups to function adequately.

B12 comes from microorganisms that end up in the guts of cows and pigs. It's easy to create B12 fortified foods that are suitable for vegans.


There are very few non-animal products that contain B-12. B-12 fortified foods aren't "true" B-12, and it's effect on the body is weakened.

I've read a lot about B-12 and I have to disagree strongly on this. B-12 that comes from animals is bound to the protein molecules in their flesh. This type of B-12 is impossible for some people to digest. These people are forced to obtain B-12 from fortified food. So this type of B-12 is much better than the kind you get from eating animals. I've never read anywhere that the B12 used to fortify foods is in anyway inferior to animal-based B12. If that is the case, could you please share a link.


Basically, cats =/= humans, and saying that a cat's diet should be followed by humans is fallacious and biologically inconsistent with the principles of genetic evolution.

Yes, it's a very reasonable thing to say. But to answer the question, "Can domestic cats be vegan, and if so, what are the health effects of their being vegan?", science has to be done.


Yes, there could be more experiments done, or we could just let cats eat what they were evolutionally dictated to eat and stop messing with their food.

Needed to clarify two things.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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7/24/2013 11:59:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 11:47:35 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:33:02 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:28:16 PM, Sargon wrote:
I think vegetarians can get sufficient amounts of protein without meat, unless I've been deficient for the past seven years.
Sure, and if the argument was about whether it was possible for a human to be a vegetarian then you might have something.

On a side note, at what level of complexity do vegans permit the eating of animals? There are plenty of animal microorganisms and there are plenty of plants that are more complex than simple animals. Where do they/you draw the line? Aren't there plant type micro-organisms in the human gut too? I'm just interested if there is some kind of consensus or whether it's a personal thing.

Vegans aren't too different in their ethics than most people. They believe that one should not cause unnecessary pain. So the rule for vegans is: if eating an animal or animal by product causes pain, and there is no dietary need to eat it, then one shouldn't eat it. I don't think anyone (except for maybe Jains) think that microorganisms feel pain so these aren't an issue for vegans.
And side step the issue of how to tell whether something actually feels pain or just appears to feel it (think of spiders sprayed with bug spray). Does this mean that if we could kill animals in a painless fashion it would be ok to eat meat? Or is death in any form a kind of pain? I don't think what you are saying is unreasonable, though I've heard different views expounded by other vegans.
Sargon
Posts: 524
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7/25/2013 12:00:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 11:33:02 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:28:16 PM, Sargon wrote:
I think vegetarians can get sufficient amounts of protein without meat, unless I've been deficient for the past seven years.
Sure, and if the argument was about whether it was possible for a human to be a vegetarian then you might have something.

On a side note, at what level of complexity do vegans permit the eating of animals? There are plenty of animal microorganisms and there are plenty of plants that are more complex than simple animals. Where do they/you draw the line? Aren't there plant type micro-organisms in the human gut too? I'm just interested if there is some kind of consensus or whether it's a personal thing.

Ehh...that *is* the argument, if you read the posts made in the thread.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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7/25/2013 2:56:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/25/2013 12:00:10 AM, Sargon wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:33:02 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:28:16 PM, Sargon wrote:
I think vegetarians can get sufficient amounts of protein without meat, unless I've been deficient for the past seven years.
Sure, and if the argument was about whether it was possible for a human to be a vegetarian then you might have something.

On a side note, at what level of complexity do vegans permit the eating of animals? There are plenty of animal microorganisms and there are plenty of plants that are more complex than simple animals. Where do they/you draw the line? Aren't there plant type micro-organisms in the human gut too? I'm just interested if there is some kind of consensus or whether it's a personal thing.

Ehh...that *is* the argument, if you read the posts made in the thread.
Well there was this one

Humans, on the other hand, are omnivorous. Over time, the genetic specialization of some cultures have caused some cultures to eat a primarily vegetarian diet, while others have been based off of a primarily carnivorous diet. Some vitamins, such as B12, can only be primarily found in meat, while fruits and vegetables supply the primary source of fiber. In general, humans need both food groups to function adequately.

But that was the only one that made any mention to humans needing meat and no mention was made of protein. It was also a general statement, and did not preclude the fact that by being careful about ones diet you could eat vegetarian and be fine. Protein is an issue though (my brother and my girlfriend have both had issues in the past but are on top of it now). And to be honest, it was mostly as a juxtaposition of human diet to cats, which is the point of the thread.
vbaculum
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7/25/2013 10:53:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 11:59:20 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:47:35 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:33:02 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 7/24/2013 11:28:16 PM, Sargon wrote:
I think vegetarians can get sufficient amounts of protein without meat, unless I've been deficient for the past seven years.
Sure, and if the argument was about whether it was possible for a human to be a vegetarian then you might have something.

On a side note, at what level of complexity do vegans permit the eating of animals? There are plenty of animal microorganisms and there are plenty of plants that are more complex than simple animals. Where do they/you draw the line? Aren't there plant type micro-organisms in the human gut too? I'm just interested if there is some kind of consensus or whether it's a personal thing.

Vegans aren't too different in their ethics than most people. They believe that one should not cause unnecessary pain. So the rule for vegans is: if eating an animal or animal by product causes pain, and there is no dietary need to eat it, then one shouldn't eat it. I don't think anyone (except for maybe Jains) think that microorganisms feel pain so these aren't an issue for vegans.

And side step the issue of how to tell whether something actually feels pain or just appears to feel it (think of spiders sprayed with bug spray).

The evidence that we use to determine that the animals that humans eat can feel pain is the same evidence we use to say other people feel pain. They scream, make attempts to escape, show symptoms of long-term trauma, etc.

There is no such thing as a consciousness detector, and there are grey areas (insects mainl), but if we can say that other humans suffer, then we are forced to concede that, using the same reasoning, nearly all the animals that human eat can suffer.

Does this mean that if we could kill animals in a painless fashion it would be ok to eat meat?

It depends on who you ask. Peter Singer, for example, says yes. Gary Francione says no.

If an animal was raised to lead a happy life and then was that life was suddely and painlessly terminate then there would be no moral issue, in my view. However, that could only happen in a thought experiment. In reality, farmed animals are treated no better than farm equipment. They are burned (searing, branding), mutilitated (castration, tail docking, etc) in life, and violently slaughter. You owe it to yourself to get more aquainted with the once-living animals that (I assume) are currently digesting in your stomach. I recommend the chapter "Down on the Factory Farm" in the classic Animal Liberation by Peter Singer next time you're in a book store.

Or is death in any form a kind of pain?

Death is usually the best thing that could happen to a farmed animal.

I don't think what you are saying is unreasonable, though I've heard different views expounded by other vegans.

Yes, all vegans are individuals with their own ideas. And, like I said, the leading vegan writers disagree with each other on many issues of ethics.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
THE_OPINIONATOR
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7/25/2013 11:06:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 9:46:18 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au...

Vegans are so delusional. Gotta love 'em!

Better get PETA on the phone.
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AnDoctuir
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7/30/2013 8:07:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
J.K. Rowling is a cool vegan who thinks plants might be sentient for all we know so it's not so big a deal... but then she's a vegan still and I'd like to be one too only I'm afraid I'd die.

Pretty sure my dog is in the middle of an existential crisis at the moment actually and had me chase him recently and watch him kill a kitten, like actually waited for me to catch up having braved my father's electric shock collar and then brutally killed a kitten FOR ME TO SEE. Pretty f*cked up...

Like recently also me and my mother were looking out the window at some pattern, me having asked her what she thought it came from, and my dog got all whiney and started walking out towards the front door and back and then over to the window to look out it too as if to say "I like outside too ;__; what the f*ck are you guys talking about??" Seriously.

My other dog is best friends with a cat, though killed another little kitten before carrying him around in his mouth. I think it was by accident but he's now absolutely mad for licking the cat, stressing to himself I think that he never meant to kill the kitten.... Crazy right?!? Dogs commit suicide a lot...
AnDoctuir
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7/30/2013 8:11:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't know much about anything else but dogs are so f*cking human. Cattle also produce the most milk to the song Everybody Hurts by REM though! or so I've read on a happy facts thing stumpleupon popped me up one time... I didn't really look too deeply into the actual study but for what I did it only spoke about slow music as opposed to fast. Old cattle are definitely master physicists though!! They like learn stuff!! Like us!!
AnDoctuir
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7/30/2013 8:13:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I personally think whether you like your steak burnt to a crisp or rare says a lot about who you are, the rare bunch being more murderous, more indulgent in a sickly satisfying feeling of control over animals.