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Terror Hits a little to close to Home.

lannan13
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12/15/2013 2:02:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
For most of my life I believed that I have been safe in the middle of the US since nothing is really here, but two days ago a terrorist bombing almost occurred at the Wichita Airport.

http://www.foxnews.com...
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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lewis20
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12/15/2013 11:20:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
FBI recruited and trained him, walked him through it and then caught him. How muffed up is that.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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12/15/2013 11:21:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Like Al Qaeda would take the time to recruit a 60 year old technician to bomb the Wichita airport haha
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Ramshutu
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12/16/2013 3:57:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 2:02:56 PM, lannan13 wrote:
For most of my life I believed that I have been safe in the middle of the US since nothing is really here, but two days ago a terrorist bombing almost occurred at the Wichita Airport.

http://www.foxnews.com...

I was in Wichita for business last week. My colleague flew out that afternoon. Didn't seem like that big a deal from what I read, he was being tracked and didn't have real explosives from what I gather.
AndrewB686
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12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.
There would be more good marriages if the marriage partners didn't live together."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
lannan13
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12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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AndrewB686
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12/17/2013 10:23:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

If we simply left the Middle East to its own inclinations and governmental systems within the region itself, then they wouldn't see us as a target of destruction. Attempting to mediate every issue is only damning the United States.
There would be more good marriages if the marriage partners didn't live together."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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12/17/2013 10:40:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

Despite what Fox News tells you, muslims aren't all out to get us because we aren't muslims. They get mad at our droning them, supporting dictatorships, overthrowing governments, occupying lands, sanctioning nations et cetera
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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12/17/2013 10:42:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'd imagine if an Iranian policy of not allowing food and medicine into the US killed 500,000 US kids, you'd be pretty pised.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lannan13
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12/18/2013 7:30:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 10:40:47 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

Despite what Fox News tells you, muslims aren't all out to get us because we aren't muslims. They get mad at our droning them, supporting dictatorships, overthrowing governments, occupying lands, sanctioning nations et cetera

I know that. I fact I even have a few Muslum friends that live in Pakistan and in the US.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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lannan13
Posts: 23,062
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12/18/2013 7:30:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 8:35:45 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
That is hilarious.

-_-
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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lannan13
Posts: 23,062
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12/18/2013 7:31:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 10:23:08 AM, AndrewB686 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

If we simply left the Middle East to its own inclinations and governmental systems within the region itself, then they wouldn't see us as a target of destruction. Attempting to mediate every issue is only damning the United States.

It would have fallen into complete anarchy if we didn't interveen.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
AndrewB686
Posts: 40
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12/18/2013 7:34:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 7:31:23 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 10:23:08 AM, AndrewB686 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

If we simply left the Middle East to its own inclinations and governmental systems within the region itself, then they wouldn't see us as a target of destruction. Attempting to mediate every issue is only damning the United States.

It would have fallen into complete anarchy if we didn't interveen.

Who says we possess the prerogative to intervene in the first place? Why are we the world's police force?
There would be more good marriages if the marriage partners didn't live together."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
lannan13
Posts: 23,062
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12/18/2013 7:35:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 7:34:33 AM, AndrewB686 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 7:31:23 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 10:23:08 AM, AndrewB686 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

If we simply left the Middle East to its own inclinations and governmental systems within the region itself, then they wouldn't see us as a target of destruction. Attempting to mediate every issue is only damning the United States.

It would have fallen into complete anarchy if we didn't interveen.

Who says we possess the prerogative to intervene in the first place? Why are we the world's police force?

Because we're 'Merica. We're just that freackin' awesome.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
AndrewB686
Posts: 40
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12/18/2013 7:48:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 7:35:28 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 7:34:33 AM, AndrewB686 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 7:31:23 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 10:23:08 AM, AndrewB686 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

If we simply left the Middle East to its own inclinations and governmental systems within the region itself, then they wouldn't see us as a target of destruction. Attempting to mediate every issue is only damning the United States.

It would have fallen into complete anarchy if we didn't interveen.

Who says we possess the prerogative to intervene in the first place? Why are we the world's police force?

Because we're 'Merica. We're just that freackin' awesome.

Ugh... damn ignorant Americans, somehow we think we're the best.. arrogance and greed, that's the bedrock of the United States.
There would be more good marriages if the marriage partners didn't live together."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
lewis20
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12/18/2013 8:08:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 7:31:23 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 10:23:08 AM, AndrewB686 wrote:
At 12/17/2013 7:28:32 AM, lannan13 wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:30:29 PM, AndrewB686 wrote:
Who cares, let Al-Qaeda do as they wish. Although this was by no means an Islamic terrorist attack. Too much attention is ascribed to these scenarios, let it be.

Hell, No. If they had their way we'd all be dead.

If we simply left the Middle East to its own inclinations and governmental systems within the region itself, then they wouldn't see us as a target of destruction. Attempting to mediate every issue is only damning the United States.

It would have fallen into complete anarchy if we didn't interveen.

Have you seen the shtstorm we left in Iraq, Libya and are leaving in Afghanistan. We are out thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and nothing to show for it.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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12/18/2013 8:12:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Shouldn't you be pissed at the FBI? They're the ones who recruited and trained the 'terrorist'. Al Qaeda isn't going to reach out to Joe blow in an insignificant airport in the middle of the US.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/18/2013 8:54:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 11:20:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
FBI recruited and trained him, walked him through it and then caught him. How muffed up is that.

False and false. There is no direct connection between the suspect's training and FBI involvement. It's clear in the article that the man already had intents on becoming a suicide bomber before the FBI got involved. There's every reason to think that the suspect initiated the training on his own accord.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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12/18/2013 8:56:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 10:42:33 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I'd imagine if an Iranian policy of not allowing food and medicine into the US killed 500,000 US kids, you'd be pretty pised.

I've looked into this and cannot substantiate it.

Furthermore, a demographic assessment of Iraq would show that nothing deterred a strong population rise in Iraq:

https://www.google.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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12/18/2013 9:06:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 2:02:56 PM, lannan13 wrote:
For most of my life I believed that I have been safe in the middle of the US since nothing is really here, but two days ago a terrorist bombing almost occurred at the Wichita Airport.

http://www.foxnews.com...

I'll add that it's a bit suspicious that no one is saying anything, and that the son had absolutely no idea his own father had any Islamic leanings, to say nothing about jihadist leanings, and this one month before the arrest.

"Speaking by phone, Damien Loewen said he had spoken to his father a month ago and didn't detect anything amiss. He said he didn't know about any turn toward Islam by his father."

http://online.wsj.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
lewis20
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12/18/2013 10:49:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 8:56:06 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/17/2013 10:42:33 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I'd imagine if an Iranian policy of not allowing food and medicine into the US killed 500,000 US kids, you'd be pretty pised.

I've looked into this and cannot substantiate it.

Ahh you've looked into it. That's a relief.
Whether the number is 170k or 600k
I'll take your word over theirs

Estimates of excess deaths during the sanctions vary widely, use different methodologies and cover different time-frames.[31][38][39] Some estimates include (some of them include effects of the Gulf War in the estimate):
Mohamed M. Ali, John Blacker, and Gareth Jones estimate between 400,000 and 500,000 excess under-5 deaths.[40]

UNICEF: 500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). "[As of 1999] [c]hildren under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago." (As is customary, this report was based on a survey conducted in cooperation with the Iraqi government and by local authorities in the provinces not controlled by the Iraqi government)[41]
Former U.N. Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq Denis Halliday: "Two hundred thirty-nine thousand children 5 years old and under" as of 1998.[42]
"Probably ... 170,000 children", Project on Defense Alternatives, "The Wages of War", 20 October 2003[43]
350,000 excess deaths among children "even using conservative estimates", Slate Explainer, "Are 1 Million Children Dying in Iraq?", 9. October 2001.[44]

Economist Michael Spagat: "very likely to be [less than] than half a million children" because estimation efforts are unable to isolate the effects of sanctions alone due to the lack of "anything resembling a controlled experiment",[45] and "one potential explanation" for the statistics showing an increase in child mortality was that "they were not real, but rather results of manipulations by the Iraqi government."[45]

Richard Garfield, a Columbia University nursing professor ... cited the figures 345,000-530,000 for the entire 1990-2002 period"[46] for sanctions-related excess deaths.[47]

Zaidi, S. and Fawzi, M. C. S., (1995) The Lancet British medical journal: 567,000 children.[48] A co-author (Zaidi) did a follow-up study in 1996, finding "much lower ... mortality rates ... for unknown reasons."[49]

Amatzia Baram, Director of the Center for Iraq Studies at the University of Haifa, reported almost no difference in the rate of Iraq"s population growth between 1977 and 1987 (35.8 percent) and between 1987 and 1997 (35.1 percent), suggesting that the sanctions-related death rate is lower than reported, while also stating "Every child who suffers from malnutrition as a result of the embargo is a tragedy".[50]

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Madeleine Albright should have just called you up when she was being questioned about it.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
wrichcirw
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12/18/2013 10:52:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 10:49:28 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 8:56:06 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/17/2013 10:42:33 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I'd imagine if an Iranian policy of not allowing food and medicine into the US killed 500,000 US kids, you'd be pretty pised.

I've looked into this and cannot substantiate it.

Ahh you've looked into it. That's a relief.
Whether the number is 170k or 600k
I'll take your word over theirs

Madeleine Albright should have just called you up when she was being questioned about it.

I'll look into this later, but there's no need to be snide about it.

I've seen most of what you've cited before, and most are either not credible or are including various other factors to reach their numbers. It was surprising to me given the organizations that came out with those numbers.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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12/18/2013 10:54:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The simple fact is that 500,000 children would have been fully 2-3% of Iraq's total population, not just children.

Had 500,000 children died during sanctions, it should have registered as a huge impact upon the Iraqi population, especially when one assumes that there were proportional adult deaths to go with this.

However, the chart I posted showed absolutely zero effect on Iraqi demographics. That calls into question either the demographics numbers or this rather wild claim that half a million children died in Iraq.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
lewis20
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12/18/2013 10:54:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 8:54:01 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/15/2013 11:20:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
FBI recruited and trained him, walked him through it and then caught him. How muffed up is that.

False and false. There is no direct connection between the suspect's training and FBI involvement. It's clear in the article that the man already had intents on becoming a suicide bomber before the FBI got involved. There's every reason to think that the suspect initiated the training on his own accord.

"an undercover FBI employee told Loewen about a recent trip overseas and a meeting with members of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. This agent told Loewen that "brothers" were interested in his airport access, and asked if he'd be willing to plant "some type of device,"

That's not the FBI recruiting him?

As for the 'bomb', the "Authorities said there was never a bomb that could explode and the public was not in danger."

For that to be true the FBI would have necessarily had to have made sure they gave him a dumby bomb or he built a dumby bomb. Either way they'd have had to have been heavily involved.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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12/18/2013 10:56:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 10:54:33 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
The simple fact is that 500,000 children would have been fully 2-3% of Iraq's total population, not just children.

Had 500,000 children died during sanctions, it should have registered as a huge impact upon the Iraqi population, especially when one assumes that there were proportional adult deaths to go with this.

However, the chart I posted showed absolutely zero effect on Iraqi demographics. That calls into question either the demographics numbers or this rather wild claim that half a million children died in Iraq.

I suppose if only charts speak to you, here's Iraq's infant mortality rate over that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
wrichcirw
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12/18/2013 11:01:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 10:56:14 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 10:54:33 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
The simple fact is that 500,000 children would have been fully 2-3% of Iraq's total population, not just children.

Had 500,000 children died during sanctions, it should have registered as a huge impact upon the Iraqi population, especially when one assumes that there were proportional adult deaths to go with this.

However, the chart I posted showed absolutely zero effect on Iraqi demographics. That calls into question either the demographics numbers or this rather wild claim that half a million children died in Iraq.

I suppose if only charts speak to you, here's Iraq's infant mortality rate over that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Infant morality rate" and "children dying" are two very different things. The latter insinuates murder, whereas the former is simply lack of medical provisions.

The latter incriminates Saddam, whereas the former incriminates those imposing sanctions.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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12/18/2013 11:05:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 10:54:46 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 8:54:01 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/15/2013 11:20:35 PM, lewis20 wrote:
FBI recruited and trained him, walked him through it and then caught him. How muffed up is that.

False and false. There is no direct connection between the suspect's training and FBI involvement. It's clear in the article that the man already had intents on becoming a suicide bomber before the FBI got involved. There's every reason to think that the suspect initiated the training on his own accord.

"an undercover FBI employee told Loewen about a recent trip overseas and a meeting with members of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. This agent told Loewen that "brothers" were interested in his airport access, and asked if he'd be willing to plant "some type of device,"

That's not the FBI recruiting him?

I understood you to mean that the FBI recruited him into an actual terrorist organization. The FBI did not do that.

As for the 'bomb', the "Authorities said there was never a bomb that could explode and the public was not in danger."

For that to be true the FBI would have necessarily had to have made sure they gave him a dumby bomb or he built a dumby bomb. Either way they'd have had to have been heavily involved.

Agree. It's pretty clear in the article that the FBI provided the dummy bomb. Regardless, it's also clear in the article that the suspect himself did the scoping.

Finally, just to reiterate, I think this case is rather fishy. There's reason to suspect this guy might have been framed for whatever reason, and that none of the supposed events actually occurred.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/18/2013 11:19:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 10:56:14 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 10:54:33 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
The simple fact is that 500,000 children would have been fully 2-3% of Iraq's total population, not just children.

Had 500,000 children died during sanctions, it should have registered as a huge impact upon the Iraqi population, especially when one assumes that there were proportional adult deaths to go with this.

However, the chart I posted showed absolutely zero effect on Iraqi demographics. That calls into question either the demographics numbers or this rather wild claim that half a million children died in Iraq.

I suppose if only charts speak to you, here's Iraq's infant mortality rate over that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Anyway, from your wikipedia link, I find these two estimates to be far more credible simply because they make far more sense, and it was the conclusion I reached the last time I looked into this:

"Amatzia Baram, Director of the Center for Iraq Studies at the University of Haifa, reported almost no difference in the rate of Iraq"s population growth between 1977 and 1987 (35.8 percent) and between 1987 and 1997 (35.1 percent), suggesting that the sanctions-related death rate is lower than reported, while also stating "Every child who suffers from malnutrition as a result of the embargo is a tragedy".[50]"

"Economist Michael Spagat: "very likely to be [less than] than half a million children" because estimation efforts are unable to isolate the effects of sanctions alone due to the lack of "anything resembling a controlled experiment",[45] and "one potential explanation" for the statistics showing an increase in child mortality was that "they were not real, but rather results of manipulations by the Iraqi government."[45]"


Look at Spagat's "In Retrospect" portion of his report:

http://personal.rhul.ac.uk...

His reasoning makes a lot more sense than the knee-jerk emotional reaction of "OMFG 500,000!!!"
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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12/18/2013 11:32:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 10:49:28 AM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/18/2013 8:56:06 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 12/17/2013 10:42:33 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I'd imagine if an Iranian policy of not allowing food and medicine into the US killed 500,000 US kids, you'd be pretty pised.

I've looked into this and cannot substantiate it.

Ahh you've looked into it. That's a relief.
Whether the number is 170k or 600k
I'll take your word over theirs

Madeleine Albright should have just called you up when she was being questioned about it.

Final parting shot:

Well, she certainly shouldn't call YOU about it.

UN reports zero substantive change in Iraqi demographics pre-Gulf War, during the sanctions, and during the Iraq War. In fact, if anything, morality rates have been DECLINING, and birth rates and population INCREASING. This was close to what I discovered the last time I bothered to look into this.

IMHO we've been fed a crock of sh!t by the press regarding a lot of key figures on Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?