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Haiti, Earthquake, Aid

Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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1/14/2010 12:06:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Shouldn't the French be bending over backwards to help out this country? They enslaved its people in one of the most brutal displays of slavery ever known, raped and pillaged the landscape, and then strong-armed them for more money than you could ever imagine from them. $90 million franks almost 200 years ago, if you could imagine what the index of inflation would be on that one.

"On more than one occasion US, French, German and British forces claimed large sums of money from the vaults of the National Bank of Haiti." -Wikipedia

Not that the U.S. actually needs to physically steal from Haiti; of course not, we are capitalists. We blackmail them by forcing them to give us extremely lopsided deals on goods, or else I guess we just don't have to trade with them, right? It's a free market after all.

And Spain may not need to give any aid, because they decimated the indigenous population there and technically there aren't too many of the Tai`no left to aid.

Now there is an earthquake - a terrible one at that - and we are jumping out of our shoes to give $5 to the red cross. Don't get me wrong, charity is cool and everything, but come on. These people feed their children patties of mud so that they can get them to go to sleep at night without the pangs of hunger, because their country is so poor. What's the difference between that and an earthquake?

Giving $5 to the Red Cross isn't helping out people out of charity. At least get it straightened out. Giving $5 to Haiti is like going to the funeral of your relative that you never bothered spending any time with when he or she was alive. We're all guilty. If you want to help Haiti, give $. But remember that we all gave up on them a long time ago.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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1/14/2010 1:48:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 12:06:49 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Shouldn't the French be bending over backwards to help out this country? They enslaved its people in one of the most brutal displays of slavery ever known, raped and pillaged the landscape, and then strong-armed them for more money than you could ever imagine from them. $90 million franks almost 200 years ago, if you could imagine what the index of inflation would be on that one.

"On more than one occasion US, French, German and British forces claimed large sums of money from the vaults of the National Bank of Haiti." -Wikipedia

Not that the U.S. actually needs to physically steal from Haiti; of course not, we are capitalists. We blackmail them by forcing them to give us extremely lopsided deals on goods, or else I guess we just don't have to trade with them, right? It's a free market after all.

And Spain may not need to give any aid, because they decimated the indigenous population there and technically there aren't too many of the Tai`no left to aid.

Now there is an earthquake - a terrible one at that - and we are jumping out of our shoes to give $5 to the red cross. Don't get me wrong, charity is cool and everything, but come on. These people feed their children patties of mud so that they can get them to go to sleep at night without the pangs of hunger, because their country is so poor. What's the difference between that and an earthquake?

Giving $5 to the Red Cross isn't helping out people out of charity. At least get it straightened out. Giving $5 to Haiti is like going to the funeral of your relative that you never bothered spending any time with when he or she was alive. We're all guilty. If you want to help Haiti, give $. But remember that we all gave up on them a long time ago.

Some good point well made there but I think you will find, in addition to Western-funded NGO's, various governments have pledged $100's millions of dollars in emergency aid.

Unfortunately, the history of European colonialism is a checkered one. In some cases, the results were not so good, witness countries like Haiti, Congo and Mali. In other cases, such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand, the influence was more positive.

I think the jury is still out on other countries such as India, South Africa and...um, the United States!
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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1/14/2010 3:49:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 12:06:49 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Giving $5 to the Red Cross isn't helping out people out of charity. At least get it straightened out. Giving $5 to Haiti is like going to the funeral of your relative that you never bothered spending any time with when he or she was alive. We're all guilty. If you want to help Haiti, give $. But remember that we all gave up on them a long time ago.

Just what am I guilty of again? What act have I done that caused poverty there?

Booked the plane ticket to Haiti have you? Planning on helping out there? Sent a large portion of your income?
Frodobaggins
Posts: 602
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1/14/2010 4:00:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree with Puck, I'm not responsible for anything that happened 2018 years ago, and I'm not about to take responsibility for the actions of my parents and grandparents.

It's survival of the fittest. The fittest dominate.

I have no remorse for what happened long ago. I do however feel bad for what happened now that I can help out with.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/14/2010 4:02:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:00:52 PM, Frodobaggins wrote:
I agree with Puck, I'm not responsible for anything that happened 2018 years ago, and I'm not about to take responsibility for the actions of my parents and grandparents.

You're responsible for Original Sin though. :P
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/14/2010 4:10:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Not my fault comoncents is too dumb to put a topic named "Haiti" in the News forum rather than the Sports forum. :)
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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1/14/2010 4:12:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:08:18 PM, Puck wrote:
You expect me to read the sports forum? >.<

Yeah, you may like it, give it a shot right now.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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1/14/2010 4:13:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:10:19 PM, Nags wrote:
Not my fault comoncents is too dumb to put a topic named "Haiti" in the News forum rather than the Sports forum. :)

Hello, I tied it into sports, it was a stretch but non the less, it stirred up some activity.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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1/14/2010 4:19:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:12:23 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:08:18 PM, Puck wrote:
You expect me to read the sports forum? >.<

Yeah, you may like it, give it a shot right now.

Or not.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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1/14/2010 4:26:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:19:33 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:12:23 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:08:18 PM, Puck wrote:
You expect me to read the sports forum? >.<

Yeah, you may like it, give it a shot right now.

Or not.

Come on, you would like it, give it a try, just a few clicks a way to having some fun.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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1/14/2010 4:28:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:26:56 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:19:33 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:12:23 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:08:18 PM, Puck wrote:
You expect me to read the sports forum? >.<

Yeah, you may like it, give it a shot right now.

Or not.

Come on, you would like it, give it a try, just a few clicks a way to having some fun.

Sports ... fun ... does not follow. :P
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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1/14/2010 4:37:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 3:58:33 PM, Nags wrote:
*Checks what Haitians have ever done for me*

*Nothing*

*Realizes there is no reason to help them*

Have you realized you're a spoiled brat with a bad attitude?
Don't I take care of them all?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/14/2010 4:39:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:37:11 PM, brittwaller wrote:
Have you realized you're a spoiled brat with a bad attitude?

No.

What moral imperative is there to say I should help Haitians?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/14/2010 4:41:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:08:18 PM, Puck wrote:
You expect me to read the sports forum? >.<

We have a sports forum?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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1/14/2010 4:51:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:39:17 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:37:11 PM, brittwaller wrote:
Have you realized you're a spoiled brat with a bad attitude?

No.

What moral imperative is there to say I should help Haitians?

Oh, there isn't. You're 15... it's like not betting because you don't have any money, but making sure everyone knows who you would have bet for. It's unbecoming.

The more appropriate question would be: What reasons could there be for me not to help the Haitians (that don't satisfy some petty requisite of exchange dreamt up by me)?
Don't I take care of them all?
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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1/14/2010 4:52:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
We're all guilty. If you want to help Haiti, give $. But remember that we all gave up on them a long time ago.

Sorry, but I don't see this as having any connection with reality.

Why should I be in any way responsible or accountable for the past actions of the government that I live under? That is a thoroughly ridiculous notion, as is that any one of us "are guilty" without having personally done anything at all to Haiti. I despise the way of thinking that labels every citizen of a government as representative personally as the entire government above them. It's empty and meaningless.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/14/2010 4:56:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:51:59 PM, brittwaller wrote:
Oh, there isn't. You're 15... it's like not betting because you don't have any money, but making sure everyone knows who you would have bet for. It's unbecoming.

Ok, this isn't really relevant. Pretend I'm 21. I'm 16 by the way, it's not that hard to look at my profile.

The more appropriate question would be: What reasons could there be for me not to help the Haitians (that don't satisfy some petty requisite of exchange dreamt up by me)?

How is that a better question? Affirming a negative doesn't make much sense. Did they earn your money? No. Did they ever do anything for you? No. Will they ever do anything for you? No. Will they ever recognize you for your donation? No. Ergo, no good reason.
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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1/14/2010 5:03:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 4:56:23 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/14/2010 4:51:59 PM, brittwaller wrote:
Oh, there isn't. You're 15... it's like not betting because you don't have any money, but making sure everyone knows who you would have bet for. It's unbecoming.

Ok, this isn't really relevant. Pretend I'm 21. I'm 16 by the way, it's not that hard to look at my profile.

Yes, it is. When you reach an age of maturity you may agree.

The more appropriate question would be: What reasons could there be for me not to help the Haitians (that don't satisfy some petty requisite of exchange dreamt up by me)?

How is that a better question? Affirming a negative doesn't make much sense. Did they earn your money? No. Did they ever do anything for you? No. Will they ever do anything for you? No. Will they ever recognize you for your donation? No. Ergo, no good reason.

They are human and in pain. It is a disaster zone. This is not the kind of donation you make or work you do with the expectation of any return. It is your sense of value that is irrelevant here.
Don't I take care of them all?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/14/2010 5:11:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 5:03:36 PM, brittwaller wrote:
Yes, it is. When you reach an age of maturity you may agree.

Ad hominem. You're attacking my age, you're not making valid arguments.

They are human and in pain. It is a disaster zone. This is not the kind of donation you make or work you do with the expectation of any return. It is your sense of value that is irrelevant here.

My sense of value is totally relevant here. My value applies to all situations, I don't make special exemptions. You're above statements of facts are not moral imperatives, and are non-sequiturs. You are not making a case for me to act.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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1/14/2010 5:17:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 5:11:16 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:03:36 PM, brittwaller wrote:
They are human and in pain. It is a disaster zone. This is not the kind of donation you make or work you do with the expectation of any return. It is your sense of value that is irrelevant here.

My sense of value is totally relevant here. My value applies to all situations, I don't make special exemptions. You're above statements of facts are not moral imperatives, and are non-sequiturs. You are not making a case for me to act.

Honestly Nags, britt shouldn't have to construct a syllogism for you to act. These are human beings who are suffering. You should feel some sort of humanistic empathy. You should want to help, simply because it's the right thing to do.
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/14/2010 5:20:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 5:17:43 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Honestly Nags, britt shouldn't have to construct a syllogism for you to act. These are human beings who are suffering. You should feel some sort of humanistic empathy. You should want to help, simply because it's the right thing to do.

Oh, an appeal to emotion? I don't go for that.

...and circular. (You should help because it's right because it just is.)
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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1/14/2010 5:22:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 5:11:16 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/14/2010 5:03:36 PM, brittwaller wrote:
Yes, it is. When you reach an age of maturity you may agree.

Ad hominem. You're attacking my age, you're not making valid arguments.

No, it is not ad hominem. It is not an attack at all - it's just a fact. I feel that your age probably ties in directly to your inhumanity, callousness, materialism, and selfism.

They are human and in pain. It is a disaster zone. This is not the kind of donation you make or work you do with the expectation of any return. It is your sense of value that is irrelevant here.

My sense of value is totally relevant here. My value applies to all situations, I don't make special exemptions. You're above statements of facts are not moral imperatives, and are non-sequiturs. You are not making a case for me to act.

Moral imperative: Everybody wants to live.
Don't I take care of them all?
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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1/14/2010 5:25:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Nags, this obviously isn't supposed to be an argument of pure logic. There is no real reason to help Haiti. The idea to help them is with the illogical premise of morality.
But that's ok, because this isn't an objective question of logic, it's a real thing that's happening right now. And if you really want to pretend that you go about your life only doing things that have truly logical purposes, then you wouldn't be alive right now.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/14/2010 5:26:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/14/2010 5:22:42 PM, brittwaller wrote:
No, it is not ad hominem. It is not an attack at all - it's just a fact. I feel that your age probably ties in directly to your inhumanity, callousness, materialism, and selfism.

Lol, it's a "fact" that partially because of my age I am inhumane, callous, materialistic, and selfish. Even if that's true, why does that matter?

Moral imperative: Everybody wants to live.

That's not a moral imperative, and that statement isn't even true anyway. Moral imperatives compel people to act, that statement doesn't compel me to do anything.