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The Tragedy of Collective Punishment

slo1
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7/8/2014 10:35:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
http://www.slate.com...

Israel is seething. On Monday, searchers found the bodies of three Jewish teenagers who were kidnapped and murdered on June 12. On Tuesday, protesters in Jerusalem chanted "Death to Arabs" and tried to attack Arabs on the street. Thirty-five thousand people endorsed a Facebook page calling for revenge. Then, on Wednesday, another boy was abducted and killed. This time, the victim was Palestinian.

We don"t yet know who killed this boy. But one thing is clear: The mentality at the heart of terrorism"the willingness to punish many people for the sins of a few"has infected Israel.

Jewish teaching, like Muslim and Christian teaching, forbids deliberate or reckless harm to innocent people. But Israel has long faced terrorist threats on all sides. From bitter experience, it has developed a doctrine of tit for tat, hitting back hard to discourage its enemies from striking again. Together, the terrorism and the reciprocity have led to a policy of limited collective punishment.

One example is Israel"s presumption of geographic responsibility. Under rules announced two years ago by its military chief of staff, attacks in various parts of Israel will result in retaliatory strikes on the nearest enemy, regardless of who staged the attack. If Israel is hit in the south, it will strike Hamas in Gaza. If Israel is hit in the north, it will strike Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Another example is Israel"s tradition of demolishing the homes of suspected Palestinian criminals. It doesn"t matter whether the suspect has been convicted, who owns the home, or who else"parents, siblings, children"lives there. The point, according to the spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is to "disincentivize attacks." According to Israel"s highest court, the perpetrator "should know that his criminal acts will not only hurt him, but are apt to cause great suffering to his family."

These policies aren"t morally equivalent to deliberate attacks on civilians. But once your government starts to rationalize the destruction of children"s homes, it"s hard to know where to stop. Increasingly, Israel is struggling to control Jewish settlers whose "Price Tag" attacks target random Arabs with arson and vandalism.
In the weeks leading up to the June 12 kidnappings, Netanyahu used Israel"s collective-responsibility doctrine to scrap peace talks with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. "Israel will not conduct diplomatic negotiations with a Palestinian government backed by Hamas," said Netanyahu. Never mind that the Palestinian government"s ministers don"t belong to Hamas and don"t communicate with it.

Hamas has a long record of terrorism and has praised the June 12 kidnappings. But unlike other terrorist groups, it has never claimed responsibility for the crime. (On Tuesday, it essentially denied involvement.) Nevertheless, Netanyahu almost immediately blamed Hamas. He offered no evidence until two weeks later, when Israel named two suspects and said that one had been recruited by Hamas. As Max Fisher points out, the suspects actually belong to a clan that habitually flouts Hamas. Netanyahu also declared Hamas responsible for a recent increase in West Bank terrorism, contradicting an intelligence briefing that traced the increase to "private Palestinian citizens" and jihadist cells independent of Hamas.

Blaming Abbas for the kidnappings is an even bigger stretch. He has denounced the crime and has helped Israel search for the culprits. But under Israel"s collective-responsibility theory, he, too, is culpable. "If the abduction comes from P.A. territory, it [the Palestinian Authority] is responsible," said one of Netanyahu"s ministers. "If it was executed by Hamas, which is represented in the P.A. government, the P.A. is responsible." Another minister pledged that Israel would "extract a heavy price from the Palestinian leadership."

These declarations are more than rhetoric. Since June 12, Israel has used them to justify a sweeping assault on Hamas and anyone associated with it, in Gaza as well as the West Bank. Israel"s military spokesman says the campaign"s mission is "to strike a substantial blow on Hamas"its infrastructure, its institutions and everything that keeps it going."

Israeli forces road-blocked Hebron for a week. They raided or searched hundreds, perhaps thousands, of homes. They arrested more than 400 people, including professors, imams, legislators, and former government ministers. They trashed the office of a nonviolent organization that facilitated Hamas" endorsement of Abbas. They barred Palestinians from visiting family members in jails. They demolished the homes of the kidnapping suspects"who hadn"t been found, much less tried"even though their relatives still lived there. They launched airstrikes on Gaza, declaring Hamas responsible for whoever had fired rockets from the strip. "Either Hamas stops it, as it is responsible for the territory, or we will stop it," said Netanyahu.

Hundreds of Israelis assembled in Jerusalem to demand Arab blood. Military and police officers posed with weapons on Facebook pages advocating revenge. "Blood for blood," said one image. "Death to Arabs," said another. Others called for strikes in Gaza or the Golan, far from the kidnapping site.

Then came the murder of the Palestinian boy. As of July 3, we don"t know who did it. But Israel"s reaction is nothing like its response to the June 12 abductions. Instead of rushing to blame parties and politicians, Israel"s security minister, Yitzhak Aharonovich, is asking Palestinians to "lower the volume" of accusations against Jews. "There are many possibilities, criminal and nationalistic," he argues. "Everything is being examined in a responsible manner."

Many Israelis, stunned by the idea that a Jew might have committed this murder, are searching their souls. Israel"s justice minister says such a crime would be terrorism.

If only Israel had practiced that kind of self-restraint after the June 12 kidnappings. If only it had held fast to the ethic of individual responsibility all these years, instead of sinking into a culture of collective retaliation. Would restraint have saved the lives of these four young men? Maybe not. But it might save Israel.
slo1
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7/8/2014 10:41:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Anyone see the 15 year old Palestinian American Citizen who got beat until unconscious by masked Israeli security?

When will we stop justifying state sponsored terrorism in the name of security?

To the articles point we know that the state of Israel will not deal with the Jewish terrorists that kidnapped and killed the Palestinian boy by demolishing their homes.

The new cycle of violence begins, playing right into Hamas' hands.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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7/8/2014 8:14:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This recent escalation in Israel/Palestine has served as a classic example of the US's bias towards coverage of this conflict.

3 Jewish Israeli's were kidnapped/killed in illegally occupied territory, and the US/Israel freaked out.

Meanwhile, during this same time period, 18 Palestinians were killed, hundreds captured and detained without charge/evidence, and many others beaten, a story that received far less coverage.

This disparity was only recently remedied after Jewish-Israeli's burned a Palestinian child to death, and Jewish-Israeli soldiers then brutally beat his American cousin.

These recent events, coupled with an almost frightful display of virulent racism emanating from Israel's Jewish population/leaders, has finally led to something resembling balanced coverage of the conflict, here in the US.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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7/11/2014 8:45:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 8:14:41 PM, HPWKA wrote:
This recent escalation in Israel/Palestine has served as a classic example of the US's bias towards coverage of this conflict.

3 Jewish Israeli's were kidnapped/killed in illegally occupied territory, and the US/Israel freaked out.

Meanwhile, during this same time period, 18 Palestinians were killed, hundreds captured and detained without charge/evidence, and many others beaten, a story that received far less coverage.

This disparity was only recently remedied after Jewish-Israeli's burned a Palestinian child to death, and Jewish-Israeli soldiers then brutally beat his American cousin.

These recent events, coupled with an almost frightful display of virulent racism emanating from Israel's Jewish population/leaders, has finally led to something resembling balanced coverage of the conflict, here in the US.

Unfortunately the state of Israel lives by the long term failed premise that security and justice is tied to retribution that far exceeds the injustice done to them.

Unfortunately, they have no desire to be surgical. The increased rocket launches from Gaza and now Lebanon are solely due to Israel escalating this conflict.

Seeing how the rocket launchers can't hit anything other than dirt, they seem rather harmless other than the disruption to peoples day.

Here is what it comes down to. Israel knows that despite the rockets it is still safer to live in Israel than it is in NYC. They are perfectly content to keep the status quo which is:

1. Don't occupy Gaza, because it causes too many casualties and periodically we can bomb the hell out of it and in between keep control of what goes in and out of it.

2. Occupy West Bank because we can create security well enough and expand our territory without too much risk.

It is a failed policy in the long term because they can't guarantee that those who want to do them harm won't get weapons that can do large amounts of damage.

What I don't understand are the Palestinian groups. It seems to me if the Palestinian cause moved to non-violence the amount of power they would posses could be tremendous.

What really drives the groups to oppose them. Is it religious fever, hatred of Jews, non-acceptance of Jewish rule, the oppression.....what?

It is so hard to get good detailed information in the States on the true motivation of various groups in Palestine because people and the media pretty much pass off all Palestinians are hell bent on Israel's destruction when that is not true.

It is safe to say until something changes Israel's ability keep the status quo such as move to non-violence from the Palestinians or obtaining weapons that can really threaten them, not much is going to change.
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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7/11/2014 9:10:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 10:41:16 AM, slo1 wrote:
Anyone see the 15 year old Palestinian American Citizen who got beat until unconscious by masked Israeli security?

I've seen the video, and it was horrific. Even if the boy was throwing molotov cocktails at Israeli security forces (which he was), what happened to him was barbaric.

When will we stop justifying state sponsored terrorism in the name of security?

Israel does not engage in state-sponsored terrorism. When Hamas stops launching missiles into Israel.

To the articles point we know that the state of Israel will not deal with the Jewish terrorists that kidnapped and killed the Palestinian boy by demolishing their homes.

That wasn't state sponsored terrorism, it was a group of thugs who, in a disgraceful way, retaliated for Palestinian's killing three Israeli teenagers.

The new cycle of violence begins, playing right into Hamas' hands.

There is nothing new here. But I agree that whenever Israel retaliates, Hamas's PR goes through the roof. There is a very simple solution to this, but it's not feasible.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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7/11/2014 9:12:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I maintain that a one-state solution where the Palestinian Authority is dissolved and the entire area under their control is assimilated into Israel is the only lasting solution. Palestinians cannot rule themselves, and they demonstrate that that's the case every day they fail to run Hamas out. Israel can run Hamas out, and only when Hamas is gone will Israel and Palestine be able to co-exist. But right now, that's an impossibility because of the tension -which Hamas and Palestinian terrorists provoked after they killed three Israeli teenagers.
Tsar of DDO
slo1
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7/11/2014 9:53:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 9:10:04 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/8/2014 10:41:16 AM, slo1 wrote:
Anyone see the 15 year old Palestinian American Citizen who got beat until unconscious by masked Israeli security?

I've seen the video, and it was horrific. Even if the boy was throwing molotov cocktails at Israeli security forces (which he was), what happened to him was barbaric.

When will we stop justifying state sponsored terrorism in the name of security?

Israel does not engage in state-sponsored terrorism. When Hamas stops launching missiles into Israel.

To the articles point we know that the state of Israel will not deal with the Jewish terrorists that kidnapped and killed the Palestinian boy by demolishing their homes.

That wasn't state sponsored terrorism, it was a group of thugs who, in a disgraceful way, retaliated for Palestinian's killing three Israeli teenagers.

You have one error with your assertion. It has not been proven that the kidnapping of the Israeli teenagers was state (Hamas) sponsored terrorism and not the act of individuals. Not every act of violence a Palestinian commits against an Israeli citizen is terrorism.

Secondly, there is a very fine line between what is state sponsored and what is not. The incident where Israeli forces clearly beat the 15 year old Palestinian well beyond what was needed to subdue him, is common place. It is clear the repercussion of such beating when one is in the Israeli military is not the same as the repercussions if two Palestinians were caught beating an Israeli teenager.

When one can identify a culture of treating Palestinians with excessive violence the state who is responsible for creating or eliminating that culture is culpable.

Things like shooting two teenagers who were throwing stones in the back is not acceptable in any civilized nation. Thank goodness CNN had video of that incident, but for every one with proof, there are many more that get covered up. Thus state sponsored terrorism, aka. protecting their own kind.

The new cycle of violence begins, playing right into Hamas' hands.

There is nothing new here. But I agree that whenever Israel retaliates, Hamas's PR goes through the roof. There is a very simple solution to this, but it's not feasible.
HPWKA
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7/11/2014 10:35:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've seen the video, and it was horrific. Even if the boy was throwing molotov cocktails at Israeli security forces (which he was), what happened to him was barbaric.

There is ZERO evidence the boy was throwing anything at all. This is an unsubstantiated rumor spread by the Israeli Military.

Spreading these rumors after a public-relations fiasco is common for Israel, as they spread a rumor that the Palestinian burned to death by Jewish-Israeli's was actually "honor-killed" by his relatives, for being gay.

Israel does not engage in state-sponsored terrorism.

I admire your conviction, but as I've demonstrated on DDO's forums time and again, the entire world (except Israel of course), has determined that Israel frequently engages in state sponsored terrorism.

That wasn't state sponsored terrorism, it was a group of thugs who, in a disgraceful way, retaliated for Palestinian's killing three Israeli teenagers.

It wasn't "state-sponsored terrorism", it was just terrorism. Though, what Israel is doing now, with their bombardment of Gaza, IS state sponsored terrorism.

Also, there is ZERO evidence that a Palestinian killed those three Israeli teenagers.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
HPWKA
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7/11/2014 10:39:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 9:12:59 AM, YYW wrote:
I maintain that a one-state solution where the Palestinian Authority is dissolved and the entire area under their control is assimilated into Israel is the only lasting solution. Palestinians cannot rule themselves, and they demonstrate that that's the case every day they fail to run Hamas out. Israel can run Hamas out, and only when Hamas is gone will Israel and Palestine be able to co-exist. But right now, that's an impossibility because of the tension -which Hamas and Palestinian terrorists provoked after they killed three Israeli teenagers.

I agree that a one-state solution would be best, where Palestinians are given the same rights as Jews, and some (not all) Palestinian exiles are allowed to return to their home-land.

We don't really know if the Palestinians can "rule themselves", as they haven't been given a chance. They have lived under perpetual occupation, brutalization, and war for almost 100 years.

Also, if Hamas didn't exist, there would still be "tension" between Israel and Palestine (as there was before Hamas existed), and not because of Palestinian "terrorism", but because of Israel's brutal occupation and destruction of the Palestinian people, dating back almost 100 years, which is the reason for Palestinian violence.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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7/11/2014 4:18:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 10:39:14 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 7/11/2014 9:12:59 AM, YYW wrote:
I maintain that a one-state solution where the Palestinian Authority is dissolved and the entire area under their control is assimilated into Israel is the only lasting solution. Palestinians cannot rule themselves, and they demonstrate that that's the case every day they fail to run Hamas out. Israel can run Hamas out, and only when Hamas is gone will Israel and Palestine be able to co-exist. But right now, that's an impossibility because of the tension -which Hamas and Palestinian terrorists provoked after they killed three Israeli teenagers.

I agree that a one-state solution would be best, where Palestinians are given the same rights as Jews, and some (not all) Palestinian exiles are allowed to return to their home-land.

We don't really know if the Palestinians can "rule themselves", as they haven't been given a chance. They have lived under perpetual occupation, brutalization, and war for almost 100 years.

Also, if Hamas didn't exist, there would still be "tension" between Israel and Palestine (as there was before Hamas existed), and not because of Palestinian "terrorism", but because of Israel's brutal occupation and destruction of the Palestinian people, dating back almost 100 years, which is the reason for Palestinian violence.

Israel does not want a one state solution. A right to return and one state solution would jeopardize them being a Jewish nation.
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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7/11/2014 10:42:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 10:39:14 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 7/11/2014 9:12:59 AM, YYW wrote:
I maintain that a one-state solution where the Palestinian Authority is dissolved and the entire area under their control is assimilated into Israel is the only lasting solution. Palestinians cannot rule themselves, and they demonstrate that that's the case every day they fail to run Hamas out. Israel can run Hamas out, and only when Hamas is gone will Israel and Palestine be able to co-exist. But right now, that's an impossibility because of the tension -which Hamas and Palestinian terrorists provoked after they killed three Israeli teenagers.

I agree that a one-state solution would be best, where Palestinians are given the same rights as Jews, and some (not all) Palestinian exiles are allowed to return to their home-land.

On this we can fully agree.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,303
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7/11/2014 11:12:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:18:05 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/11/2014 10:39:14 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 7/11/2014 9:12:59 AM, YYW wrote:
I maintain that a one-state solution where the Palestinian Authority is dissolved and the entire area under their control is assimilated into Israel is the only lasting solution. Palestinians cannot rule themselves, and they demonstrate that that's the case every day they fail to run Hamas out. Israel can run Hamas out, and only when Hamas is gone will Israel and Palestine be able to co-exist. But right now, that's an impossibility because of the tension -which Hamas and Palestinian terrorists provoked after they killed three Israeli teenagers.

I agree that a one-state solution would be best, where Palestinians are given the same rights as Jews, and some (not all) Palestinian exiles are allowed to return to their home-land.

We don't really know if the Palestinians can "rule themselves", as they haven't been given a chance. They have lived under perpetual occupation, brutalization, and war for almost 100 years.

Also, if Hamas didn't exist, there would still be "tension" between Israel and Palestine (as there was before Hamas existed), and not because of Palestinian "terrorism", but because of Israel's brutal occupation and destruction of the Palestinian people, dating back almost 100 years, which is the reason for Palestinian violence.

Israel does not want a one state solution. A right to return and one state solution would jeopardize them being a Jewish nation.

Which is something they need to get over...
Tsar of DDO
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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7/12/2014 11:49:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Beecaws Isreel es evul an prays dose Palisteenians hu fyt da evul Jus an da Palisteenians totullee wud treet teh Jus mulch bedder dan teh Jus treet teh Palisteenians ef dey wer en powwer en Isreel!!!!!!!!!!!
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