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Arizona: 1070

USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
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5/6/2010 1:31:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
While the bill itself will likely be repealed (mostly for the required carrying of legal papers, etc., part), I applaud Arizona for actually doing something about the problem of illegal immigration instead of endless banter about "sit downs" and "bringing everything to the table."

Although I'm against the harassment of LEGAL residents, inaction for so long has forced this hand, and kudos to female governor Jan Brewer for having the cojones to sign the bill (instead of worrying about re-election).

I love the celebrity outcry from this. Former NBA players and current analysts Charles Barkley and Chris Webber chimed in before the "Los Suns" and "Los Spurs" game tonight on TNT (Ted Turner probably gave them a raise on the spot).

Webber had the line of the night, referencing Public Enemy's 1991 song "By the Time I Get to Arizona" to point of Arizona's alleged history of prejudice. (Webber then referenced "John McClain" --- apparently confusing the senator with the Bruce Willis protagonist from the "Die Hard" movies.) Granted, John McCain apologized in 2008 (convenient timing) for not originally voting to recognize MLK Day as a state holiday; however, to imply McCain-racism (against Hispanics) as a motivating factor for passing 1070 is ludicrous.

(Al Shapton is already in Phoenix, by the way, in case you have an over-under bet going.)

The New York Times reported that President Obama said the following about this bill: "The Arizona law. . .threaten[s] 'to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and our communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe.'"

Isn't that what illegal immigration does?

Again, I don't agree with every aspect of this bill, but I applaud the guts of Arizona lawmakers for doing what they felt was right rather than just dragging feet while saying the politically-correct words over and over again.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/6/2010 2:20:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't have to like something to be in favor of it. Someone said to me "you're a libertarian, how can you be in favor of it?" A primary responsibility of a government is to protect its borders and its citizens from external threats. I don't like it that it has come to this, but measures need to be taken in border states because there is a legitimate threat. It is not trumped up, it is not a political creation, but a true threat to the security of our country and its citizens.

I wonder how those who are against this bill are about sobriety check points? I am against these random stops without just cause, but those who are against them are typically conservative.

Again, i don't have to like it to be in favor of it. I take no joy in being in favor of capital punishment, and if i did take joy in it, i would be worried, but i do understand that unpleasant, but reasonable things are sometimes required of a society to protect itself.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/6/2010 2:39:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If I was a nationalist patriot who had respect for the law, perhaps I would support the immigration law and be in favor of enforcing and securing the border.

Unfortunately, I'm none of the above. National boundaries are arbitrary lines that exist, only on a map. Not to mention, we stole the Western region from the Mexicans to begin with, so when they "cross the border" they are really trying to come back home after we killed them and forced them off their own land. http://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/6/2010 4:23:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 2:39:34 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
If I was a nationalist patriot who had respect for the law, perhaps I would support the immigration law and be in favor of enforcing and securing the border.

Unfortunately, I'm none of the above. National boundaries are arbitrary lines that exist, only on a map. Not to mention, we stole the Western region from the Mexicans to begin with, so when they "cross the border" they are really trying to come back home after we killed them and forced them off their own land. http://en.wikipedia.org...

And the jews historically lived in Israel... and some christians... and muslims... and other random people...

My distant ancestors lived there can't be taken as giving you a right to live there....

that is, unless you're for NO social programs whatsoever... then I could pretty much understand the idea that any respectable person ought be allowed in.

THough i'd still want some border security to prevent criminals and terrorists from coming in.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
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5/8/2010 3:12:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 2:39:34 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

National boundaries are arbitrary lines that exist, only on a map. Not to mention, we stole the Western region from the Mexicans to begin with, so when they "cross the border" they are really trying to come back home after we killed them and forced them off their own land. http://en.wikipedia.org...

(1) If you fight in a border war, win it.

(2) If you want to keep your land, don't sell it.

(3) Once you fail at both (1) and (2), don't feel victimized by anything but your own mistakes and transgressions.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/8/2010 5:34:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 3:12:40 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
(2) If you want to keep your land, don't sell it.

Geo doesn't believe in selling. He's another utopian socialist now I think.

Anyways, this bill is nothing but BS. Brewer is very concerned about re-election, so don't give me that line. Why else would she put this through? It is popular among the GOP base in Arizona, the semi-fascists they end up being half the time, all the while crying for lower taxes (ironically enough probably leading to cuts for the same border services agents who will do this job!).

I'd say that yes, something had to be done, something outside of "sit downs." Actual action is refreshing. But this bill is so unbelievably bad and will lead down to such an awful road that I don't see legal residents being deported because of this bill too far off in the future at all.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/8/2010 7:21:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 5:34:41 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/8/2010 3:12:40 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
(2) If you want to keep your land, don't sell it.

Geo doesn't believe in selling. He's another utopian socialist now I think.

Anyways, this bill is nothing but BS. Brewer is very concerned about re-election, so don't give me that line. Why else would she put this through? It is popular among the GOP base in Arizona, the semi-fascists they end up being half the time, all the while crying for lower taxes (ironically enough probably leading to cuts for the same border services agents who will do this job!).

I'd say that yes, something had to be done, something outside of "sit downs." Actual action is refreshing. But this bill is so unbelievably bad and will lead down to such an awful road that I don't see legal residents being deported because of this bill too far off in the future at all.

In order to deport people, they must first either legally stop or arrest them. At that point, they'd have to verify with the government that these people are not legal residents. Then they will be deported. They have databases of this stuff. They'd find it.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/8/2010 8:51:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 7:21:33 AM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/8/2010 5:34:41 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/8/2010 3:12:40 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
(2) If you want to keep your land, don't sell it.

Geo doesn't believe in selling. He's another utopian socialist now I think.

Anyways, this bill is nothing but BS. Brewer is very concerned about re-election, so don't give me that line. Why else would she put this through? It is popular among the GOP base in Arizona, the semi-fascists they end up being half the time, all the while crying for lower taxes (ironically enough probably leading to cuts for the same border services agents who will do this job!).

I'd say that yes, something had to be done, something outside of "sit downs." Actual action is refreshing. But this bill is so unbelievably bad and will lead down to such an awful road that I don't see legal residents being deported because of this bill too far off in the future at all.

In order to deport people, they must first either legally stop or arrest them. At that point, they'd have to verify with the government that these people are not legal residents. Then they will be deported. They have databases of this stuff. They'd find it.

If the person provides no manner of documentation at all... and they're not in some criminal documentation system...

How can the Fed. government determine that they weren't born in America?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/8/2010 9:13:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 8:51:36 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/8/2010 7:21:33 AM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/8/2010 5:34:41 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/8/2010 3:12:40 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
(2) If you want to keep your land, don't sell it.

Geo doesn't believe in selling. He's another utopian socialist now I think.

Anyways, this bill is nothing but BS. Brewer is very concerned about re-election, so don't give me that line. Why else would she put this through? It is popular among the GOP base in Arizona, the semi-fascists they end up being half the time, all the while crying for lower taxes (ironically enough probably leading to cuts for the same border services agents who will do this job!).

I'd say that yes, something had to be done, something outside of "sit downs." Actual action is refreshing. But this bill is so unbelievably bad and will lead down to such an awful road that I don't see legal residents being deported because of this bill too far off in the future at all.

In order to deport people, they must first either legally stop or arrest them. At that point, they'd have to verify with the government that these people are not legal residents. Then they will be deported. They have databases of this stuff. They'd find it.

If the person provides no manner of documentation at all... and they're not in some criminal documentation system...

How can the Fed. government determine that they weren't born in America?

You're already required to carry your papers around. It's the law. Arizona didn't change that.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/8/2010 11:11:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 9:13:19 AM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/8/2010 8:51:36 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/8/2010 7:21:33 AM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/8/2010 5:34:41 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/8/2010 3:12:40 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
(2) If you want to keep your land, don't sell it.

Geo doesn't believe in selling. He's another utopian socialist now I think.

Anyways, this bill is nothing but BS. Brewer is very concerned about re-election, so don't give me that line. Why else would she put this through? It is popular among the GOP base in Arizona, the semi-fascists they end up being half the time, all the while crying for lower taxes (ironically enough probably leading to cuts for the same border services agents who will do this job!).

I'd say that yes, something had to be done, something outside of "sit downs." Actual action is refreshing. But this bill is so unbelievably bad and will lead down to such an awful road that I don't see legal residents being deported because of this bill too far off in the future at all.

In order to deport people, they must first either legally stop or arrest them. At that point, they'd have to verify with the government that these people are not legal residents. Then they will be deported. They have databases of this stuff. They'd find it.

If the person provides no manner of documentation at all... and they're not in some criminal documentation system...

How can the Fed. government determine that they weren't born in America?

You're already required to carry your papers around. It's the law. Arizona didn't change that.

so... if I don't I'll be deported to mexico??? or jailed until I get some papers???
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/8/2010 1:11:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 7:21:33 AM, mongoose wrote:
In order to deport people, they must first either legally stop or arrest them. At that point, they'd have to verify with the government that these people are not legal residents. Then they will be deported. They have databases of this stuff. They'd find it.

Sure, that's how its supposed to work. I hope it honestly does. But my point is two-fold; one, if it fails, then you have a big question on your hands, and two, you're still instituting racial discrimination on the basis of rooting out illegal immigrants. This bill allows for continual harassment of legal citizens no matter what. Even if they are proven to be citizens, they will still end up being pulled over for "lookin' illegal." That's simply not right.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/9/2010 4:59:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/8/2010 1:11:03 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/8/2010 7:21:33 AM, mongoose wrote:
In order to deport people, they must first either legally stop or arrest them. At that point, they'd have to verify with the government that these people are not legal residents. Then they will be deported. They have databases of this stuff. They'd find it.

Sure, that's how its supposed to work. I hope it honestly does. But my point is two-fold; one, if it fails, then you have a big question on your hands, and two, you're still instituting racial discrimination on the basis of rooting out illegal immigrants. This bill allows for continual harassment of legal citizens no matter what. Even if they are proven to be citizens, they will still end up being pulled over for "lookin' illegal." That's simply not right.

There wouldn't be a reason to pull them over. If they're caught breaking the law, and are lawfully stopped or arrested, they are then inspected to be illegal or legal. Also, a driver's license is considered proof of residence. I don't see the issue.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/9/2010 5:03:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 4:59:33 PM, mongoose wrote:
There wouldn't be a reason to pull them over. If they're caught breaking the law, and are lawfully stopped or arrested, they are then inspected to be illegal or legal. Also, a driver's license is considered proof of residence. I don't see the issue.

Driver's licenses are considered proof of residence, not citizenship, which is what this bill goes after - undocumented non-citizens.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/9/2010 5:14:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 5:03:59 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/9/2010 4:59:33 PM, mongoose wrote:
There wouldn't be a reason to pull them over. If they're caught breaking the law, and are lawfully stopped or arrested, they are then inspected to be illegal or legal. Also, a driver's license is considered proof of residence. I don't see the issue.

Driver's licenses are considered proof of residence, not citizenship, which is what this bill goes after - undocumented non-citizens.

What I meant was, it is considered proof that you are not illegal.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/9/2010 5:21:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 5:14:14 PM, mongoose wrote:
What I meant was, it is considered proof that you are not illegal.

How? You can get your driver's license without proving your citizenship. I know you can here, and I know you can in the United States. It simply isn't proof of legal citizenship.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/9/2010 5:52:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 5:21:25 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/9/2010 5:14:14 PM, mongoose wrote:
What I meant was, it is considered proof that you are not illegal.

How? You can get your driver's license without proving your citizenship. I know you can here, and I know you can in the United States. It simply isn't proof of legal citizenship.

I know that in Texas, you need proof. I needed my birth cirtificate.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/9/2010 6:44:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 5:52:52 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/9/2010 5:21:25 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/9/2010 5:14:14 PM, mongoose wrote:
What I meant was, it is considered proof that you are not illegal.

How? You can get your driver's license without proving your citizenship. I know you can here, and I know you can in the United States. It simply isn't proof of legal citizenship.

I know that in Texas, you need proof. I needed my birth cirtificate.
To get a state ID in Washington, I had to get several mails, a birth certificae, social security card, college transcripts, the first clerk we went to wanted a high school yearbook (which I didn't have), I got high school transcripts and a photocopy of the yearbook page, which the first clerk said they wouldn't take, the second clerk took.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/9/2010 7:21:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
From what I get of the Arizona Department of Transportation website, you can use these items: http://mvd.azdot.gov...

Lot's of things you can use. Most suppose some other form of certification, but not all are too bulletproof.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/9/2010 7:25:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 7:21:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
From what I get of the Arizona Department of Transportation website, you can use these items: http://mvd.azdot.gov...

Lot's of things you can use. Most suppose some other form of certification, but not all are too bulletproof.

The primary ones seem to be, and it could be that they check your status at that point before giving it to you.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
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5/9/2010 8:25:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 7:25:59 PM, mongoose wrote:
The primary ones seem to be, and it could be that they check your status at that point before giving it to you.

I really don't know. We need someone from Arizona to answer this.
mongoose
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5/9/2010 8:41:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 8:25:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/9/2010 7:25:59 PM, mongoose wrote:
The primary ones seem to be, and it could be that they check your status at that point before giving it to you.

I really don't know. We need someone from Arizona to answer this.

Either way, the chance of an illegal immigrant obtaining them is next to nothing.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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5/16/2010 2:54:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/9/2010 5:14:14 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/9/2010 5:03:59 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/9/2010 4:59:33 PM, mongoose wrote:
There wouldn't be a reason to pull them over. If they're caught breaking the law, and are lawfully stopped or arrested, they are then inspected to be illegal or legal. Also, a driver's license is considered proof of residence. I don't see the issue.

Driver's licenses are considered proof of residence, not citizenship, which is what this bill goes after - undocumented non-citizens.

What I meant was, it is considered proof that you are not illegal.

Absolutely false. United States citizens born in the United States with valid driver's licenses are already being arrested and detained in Arizona, even before this new law took effect, by INS. Now Joe Schmoe cop can do it.

http://iowaindependent.com...

Anyone appearing Hispanic can expect to go through the same treatment driving through the state. This effectively means anyone who is Hispanic can expect to not be allowed to work as a truck driver driving through Arizona ... truckers have cargo they need to haul in a short amount of time. Being detained for several hours would kill anyone's ability to get a day's work done.

The "illegal to work for a living and now we will arrest you for it" law is fascism, pure and simple ... its making it a crime to be born in the wrong place. It will hurt efforts to go after real bad guys, Mexican gangs and Arizona-native felons alike by abusing police forces to harrass, arrest and throw under the bus hard working migrant workers who toil in fields and factories to feed their families while the real criminals get away.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/18/2010 2:25:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/16/2010 2:54:16 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 5/9/2010 5:14:14 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/9/2010 5:03:59 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/9/2010 4:59:33 PM, mongoose wrote:
There wouldn't be a reason to pull them over. If they're caught breaking the law, and are lawfully stopped or arrested, they are then inspected to be illegal or legal. Also, a driver's license is considered proof of residence. I don't see the issue.

Driver's licenses are considered proof of residence, not citizenship, which is what this bill goes after - undocumented non-citizens.

What I meant was, it is considered proof that you are not illegal.

Absolutely false. United States citizens born in the United States with valid driver's licenses are already being arrested and detained in Arizona, even before this new law took effect, by INS. Now Joe Schmoe cop can do it.

http://iowaindependent.com...

Anyone appearing Hispanic can expect to go through the same treatment driving through the state. This effectively means anyone who is Hispanic can expect to not be allowed to work as a truck driver driving through Arizona ... truckers have cargo they need to haul in a short amount of time. Being detained for several hours would kill anyone's ability to get a day's work done.

The "illegal to work for a living and now we will arrest you for it" law is fascism, pure and simple ... its making it a crime to be born in the wrong place. It will hurt efforts to go after real bad guys, Mexican gangs and Arizona-native felons alike by abusing police forces to harrass, arrest and throw under the bus hard working migrant workers who toil in fields and factories to feed their families while the real criminals get away.

If that happened before the law, it would seem the law wouldn't affect this situation.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.