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No hope for Mexico in sight

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/5/2010 3:10:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://www.google.com...

"Sunday's elections also displayed the intimidating power of drug cartels in the most embattled states. Only a third of voters showed up in the country's most violent state, Chihuahua, where drug gangs hung four bodies from bridges on election day. Less than 40 percent voted in Tamaulipas, where gubernatorial candidate Rodolfo Torre was assassinated last week."

Do people know how really terrible it is in Mexico?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/11/2010 10:36:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
No. People are ignorant as hell.

This is one of the reaons I am heavily against the war on drugs. Legalize drugs, and these drug cartels (essentially ruining any chance of uncorrupt politics and thus oppression and fostering desparation in Mexico... which, ya know, brings them to our country) will cease to exist. The only way gangs and illegal cartels like this can flourish is when there are laws against something that they can provide. If their activity were legalized, then they can operate under the regular market pretty much eliminating this kind of crime.
President of DDO
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/11/2010 10:47:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 10:36:12 AM, theLwerd wrote:
No. People are ignorant as hell.

This is one of the reaons I am heavily against the war on drugs. Legalize drugs, and these drug cartels (essentially ruining any chance of uncorrupt politics and thus oppression and fostering desparation in Mexico... which, ya know, brings them to our country) will cease to exist. The only way gangs and illegal cartels like this can flourish is when there are laws against something that they can provide. If their activity were legalized, then they can operate under the regular market pretty much eliminating this kind of crime.

Agreed, although i don't know if it will cease to exist. Corruption is so ingrained in their culture that i don't know if everything will get completely better. However, yeah, it would be a so different, and so much less violent.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/11/2010 11:03:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 10:36:12 AM, theLwerd wrote:
No. People are ignorant as hell.

This is one of the reaons I am heavily against the war on drugs. Legalize drugs, and these drug cartels (essentially ruining any chance of uncorrupt politics and thus oppression and fostering desparation in Mexico... which, ya know, brings them to our country) will cease to exist. The only way gangs and illegal cartels like this can flourish is when there are laws against something that they can provide. If their activity were legalized, then they can operate under the regular market pretty much eliminating this kind of crime.

I doubt it would really eliminate it.

look at NY sanitation
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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7/11/2010 1:15:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 10:36:12 AM, theLwerd wrote:
No. People are ignorant as hell.

This is one of the reaons I am heavily against the war on drugs. Legalize drugs, and these drug cartels (essentially ruining any chance of uncorrupt politics and thus oppression and fostering desparation in Mexico... which, ya know, brings them to our country) will cease to exist. The only way gangs and illegal cartels like this can flourish is when there are laws against something that they can provide. If their activity were legalized, then they can operate under the regular market pretty much eliminating this kind of crime.

Old habits don't die easily.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
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7/11/2010 1:17:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 1:15:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 7/11/2010 10:36:12 AM, theLwerd wrote:
No. People are ignorant as hell.

This is one of the reaons I am heavily against the war on drugs. Legalize drugs, and these drug cartels (essentially ruining any chance of uncorrupt politics and thus oppression and fostering desparation in Mexico... which, ya know, brings them to our country) will cease to exist. The only way gangs and illegal cartels like this can flourish is when there are laws against something that they can provide. If their activity were legalized, then they can operate under the regular market pretty much eliminating this kind of crime.

Old habits don't die easily.

Expansion: Simply legalising the trade doesn't eliminate the illegal element of it. To say drug legalisation = No more illegal drugs is naivety. Do you think they really will want to pay the tax on drugs, as well as havign to sell full pure drugs, thus reducing their profit margins significantly?

Sure, some will go clean, but it will take major incentives to make it a fully legal trade with a minimal criminal element.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/11/2010 2:06:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 1:17:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 7/11/2010 1:15:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 7/11/2010 10:36:12 AM, theLwerd wrote:
No. People are ignorant as hell.

This is one of the reaons I am heavily against the war on drugs. Legalize drugs, and these drug cartels (essentially ruining any chance of uncorrupt politics and thus oppression and fostering desparation in Mexico... which, ya know, brings them to our country) will cease to exist. The only way gangs and illegal cartels like this can flourish is when there are laws against something that they can provide. If their activity were legalized, then they can operate under the regular market pretty much eliminating this kind of crime.

Old habits don't die easily.

Expansion: Simply legalising the trade doesn't eliminate the illegal element of it. To say drug legalisation = No more illegal drugs is naivety. Do you think they really will want to pay the tax on drugs, as well as havign to sell full pure drugs, thus reducing their profit margins significantly?

Sure, some will go clean, but it will take major incentives to make it a fully legal trade with a minimal criminal element.

It would change the unbelievably violent nature of the crime. It would then be just black market stuff.
I-am-a-panda
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7/11/2010 2:09:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 2:06:04 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/11/2010 1:17:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 7/11/2010 1:15:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 7/11/2010 10:36:12 AM, theLwerd wrote:
No. People are ignorant as hell.

This is one of the reaons I am heavily against the war on drugs. Legalize drugs, and these drug cartels (essentially ruining any chance of uncorrupt politics and thus oppression and fostering desparation in Mexico... which, ya know, brings them to our country) will cease to exist. The only way gangs and illegal cartels like this can flourish is when there are laws against something that they can provide. If their activity were legalized, then they can operate under the regular market pretty much eliminating this kind of crime.

Old habits don't die easily.

Expansion: Simply legalising the trade doesn't eliminate the illegal element of it. To say drug legalisation = No more illegal drugs is naivety. Do you think they really will want to pay the tax on drugs, as well as havign to sell full pure drugs, thus reducing their profit margins significantly?

Sure, some will go clean, but it will take major incentives to make it a fully legal trade with a minimal criminal element.

It would change the unbelievably violent nature of the crime. It would then be just black market stuff.

Yeah, but criminals will turn to another black market product to flog for cash.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/12/2010 1:41:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 11:03:24 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I doubt it would really eliminate it.

look at NY sanitation

...?
President of DDO
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/12/2010 9:49:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/12/2010 1:41:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 7/11/2010 11:03:24 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I doubt it would really eliminate it.

look at NY sanitation

...?

http://www.slate.com...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/12/2010 9:52:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
When alcohol was legalized in the United States, it stopped funding organized criminals.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/12/2010 9:57:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/12/2010 9:49:13 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/12/2010 1:41:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 7/11/2010 11:03:24 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I doubt it would really eliminate it.

look at NY sanitation

...?

http://www.slate.com...

mafia... violence... and political corruption... won't be eliminated by ending the "war on drugs"...

but it would prolly be a good blow.

Though then they might fight for govt. contracts to grow/distribute drugs Mob style anyhow..

or get into a different business.

Ending the "war on drugs" would help... But it won't solve problems of rampant organized crime.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/12/2010 10:36:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What's the murder rate for trash?

Incidentally, the slate article points to regulation being the cause of such "criminals in legal industries"-- despite Slate having an institutional bias against admitting such things. Remove regulatory powers and boom-- nowhere for the mob to muscle in.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mattrodstrom
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7/12/2010 11:36:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/12/2010 10:36:23 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
What's the murder rate for trash?

the US of today and of Any time is quite a bit different than Mexico.

also... I was saying that eliminating the War on Drugs would prolly not eliminate mafiash behavior... even though it would prolly make things a good bit harder make a buck by illegal means.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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7/13/2010 7:29:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/12/2010 9:52:20 PM, wjmelements wrote:
When alcohol was legalized in the United States, it stopped funding organized criminals.

Because illegal, duty and tax free alcohol doesn't exist.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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7/13/2010 8:43:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Perhaps the Mexicans like the way things are?

Perhaps they don't want to be burdened by too many rules and regulations and are happy that enterprising people are more or less free to conduct their businesses they way they see fit – even though that may involve intimidation, violence and murder?

Don't forget, the Mexicans have Spanish blood in them so they are bound to be a bit treacherous.

After all, the Spanish have been using dirty tricks to try and get snatch Gibraltar from Britain for over three centuries now.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

They have always been unsuccessful but I don't suppose they'll ever stop trying.

Similarly, even if drugs were legalised in America, the Mexicans would just run some other form of contraband goods into the country - as has already been noted in this thread.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
Paris
Posts: 36
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7/13/2010 3:59:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/12/2010 9:57:10 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/12/2010 9:49:13 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/12/2010 1:41:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 7/11/2010 11:03:24 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I doubt it would really eliminate it.

look at NY sanitation

...?

http://www.slate.com...

mafia... violence... and political corruption... won't be eliminated by ending the "war on drugs"...

but it would prolly be a good blow.

Though then they might fight for govt. contracts to grow/distribute drugs Mob style anyhow..

or get into a different business.

Ending the "war on drugs" would help... But it won't solve problems of rampant organized crime.

Yeah because organized crime is not only centered on drugs. They also deal in the illegal sale and trade of firearms and other business related things too like money laundering. As wjmelements said if you take away some of the things that fund them then they can no longer rely on those sales and must move to other means which can make their criminal activity harder to bust or contain or at least stop them from making profit unnecessarily.
I-am-a-panda
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7/13/2010 4:00:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/13/2010 8:43:00 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

Don't forget, the Mexicans have Spanish blood in them so they are bound to be a bit treacherous.

After all, the Spanish have been using dirty tricks to try and get snatch Gibraltar from Britain for over three centuries now.

Which was more less snatched from them.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/15/2010 2:18:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/13/2010 3:59:23 PM, Paris wrote:
At 7/12/2010 9:57:10 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/12/2010 9:49:13 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/12/2010 1:41:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 7/11/2010 11:03:24 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I doubt it would really eliminate it.

look at NY sanitation

...?

http://www.slate.com...

mafia... violence... and political corruption... won't be eliminated by ending the "war on drugs"...

but it would prolly be a good blow.

Though then they might fight for govt. contracts to grow/distribute drugs Mob style anyhow..

or get into a different business.

Ending the "war on drugs" would help... But it won't solve problems of rampant organized crime.

Yeah because organized crime is not only centered on drugs. They also deal in the illegal sale and trade of firearms and other business related things too like money laundering. As wjmelements said if you take away some of the things that fund them then they can no longer rely on those sales and must move to other means which can make their criminal activity harder to bust or contain or at least stop them from making profit unnecessarily.

There will always be crime and corruption, it is our nature, and it is part of the Mexican culture now. However, most people have no idea the level of violence that exists on a daily basis as a result of the drug trade. People have no clue what goes on in Mexico city, or elsewhere in that country. We tend to ignore the the murders and wholesale extortion that is only getting worse. A different approach with the legal status of drugs may not eliminate the corruption or crime, but it would definitely reduce the level of terror that people live with. Oh, and no, they don't like it this way because they are Latin.
innomen
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9/3/2010 12:07:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://www.guardian.co.uk...

Nice article. On a related note: about a week ago or so 79 Central and South Americans who paid a 'coyote' to take them across the border to the US were brought to a building and asked to pay more. They had no additional money and said they could not, so they (the coyotes) told them that they would have to either pay more, work for their drug cartel or die. They said they wouldn't work for the drug cartel and they were all shot. A 17 year old boy pretended to be dead and waited until some police came and told the story.

This story needs to be told throughout Central and South America.
juvanya
Posts: 613
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9/5/2010 6:40:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ending the drug war (which I partially agree with) wont change this. They will find new means to make money and more bodies will be racked up. The violence may or may not have started because of drugs, but the two are no longer attached.
innomen
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9/6/2010 2:33:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 6:40:05 PM, juvanya wrote:
Ending the drug war (which I partially agree with) wont change this. They will find new means to make money and more bodies will be racked up. The violence may or may not have started because of drugs, but the two are no longer attached.

In some way i agree with you in that the culture has now adopted an entrenched corruption and violent and bloody way of living if not doing business. However, the prime root of this is drugs and eliminating that motive will greatly change the motive to kill.
I-am-a-panda
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9/6/2010 2:35:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 6:40:05 PM, juvanya wrote:
Ending the drug war (which I partially agree with) wont change this. They will find new means to make money and more bodies will be racked up. The violence may or may not have started because of drugs, but the two are no longer attached.

Pray tell what they could sell in the same quantity as drugs and have the same demand as drug.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
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9/6/2010 2:36:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/6/2010 2:35:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/5/2010 6:40:05 PM, juvanya wrote:
Ending the drug war (which I partially agree with) wont change this. They will find new means to make money and more bodies will be racked up. The violence may or may not have started because of drugs, but the two are no longer attached.

Pray tell what they could sell in the same quantity as drugs and have the same demand as drug.

People.
I-am-a-panda
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9/6/2010 2:37:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/6/2010 2:36:36 PM, innomen wrote:
At 9/6/2010 2:35:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/5/2010 6:40:05 PM, juvanya wrote:
Ending the drug war (which I partially agree with) wont change this. They will find new means to make money and more bodies will be racked up. The violence may or may not have started because of drugs, but the two are no longer attached.

Pray tell what they could sell in the same quantity as drugs and have the same demand as drug.

People.

Legalise prostitution, bam.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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9/6/2010 2:54:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/6/2010 2:37:40 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/6/2010 2:36:36 PM, innomen wrote:
At 9/6/2010 2:35:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/5/2010 6:40:05 PM, juvanya wrote:
Ending the drug war (which I partially agree with) wont change this. They will find new means to make money and more bodies will be racked up. The violence may or may not have started because of drugs, but the two are no longer attached.

Pray tell what they could sell in the same quantity as drugs and have the same demand as drug.

People.

Legalise prostitution, bam.

no, i mean carrying people to the border. There is money in this for the coyotes, not as much as for drugs, but it is an industry.

By the way, you just can't let go of that issue can you. You planning on being a pimp or something?
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/6/2010 3:07:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/6/666 6:66:66 PM, Obvious Troll wrote:

Legalizing drugs won't stop the black market for drugs! People will still buy black market tax free drugs!

Then get rid of taxes on addictive substances you dumb f*ck. If illegal drugs are sold at even remotely close to what they are worth on the legitimate market, the black market will evaporate. How are clandestine "tax free" labs going to compete with Heroin that's mass produced at less than 3$ a gram?

At 6/6/666 6:66:66 PM, Obvious Troll wrote:

But drug cartels will just move on to another illegal industry! There will be no net reduction in violence!

Demand for other illegal goods is already being met by the market. If everone in the drug market tried to move to the firearm market, the profits would freefall and the risk of being caught would skyrocket.