Total Posts:21|Showing Posts:1-21
Jump to topic:

Death of Boris Nemtsov

bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Russia is a very dark, violent place. There is very little hope there. There are riving political factions in Russia that make the Tea Party and even the remnants of the American Ku Klux Klan look tame. The countrymen are violent and morally base; they are brutal and the lives they lead are tragic. Eventually there may come a time that the many boiling pots on the stove boil over simultaneously and revolution erupts, but it will likely not happen in our lifetime.

Despite the perverse, amoral Russian political culture that, to an outsider looks barbaric and tragically corrupt, that is the way that most everyday Russians expect their country to operate. Corruption is the norm. Bribery is the way deals are made. Everything is about perception; reality doesn't matter. The truth is whatever the political elites say it is; the people cynically see through it, but are comfortable with it because it's all they've ever known.

It's terrible, because in the United States we simply don't exchange political power with blood and death... but it's hard to judge Russia as an American, or it's political culture, because no matter how badly things are, Russia is still improving from what it was during the USSR, on balance. Putin is still better than Kruschev or Stalin; he's a slimeball.... but at least he's a reasonably predictable slimeball.

That said, I would *never* live in Russia. It is a dark, miserable, godforsaken place.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/2/2015 9:23:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And like this... it's so clearly silencing political dissidence... but if they were going to kill him, they did it at the right time: before he got so powerful that his death would have incited more than a large march in Moscow. I know that sounds horrible (because it is horrible), but with regard to how Russian politics works... there is nothing surprising here.

What it means is that Russian politics are nasty, as they have always been... and as I suspect they will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

The other thing is that I really haven no faith in the Russian people, as a group. Individually, they are good people. But as a group; a body politic... they cannot function.
Tsar of DDO
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 11:52:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Do you think the Nemtsov assassination is indicative of the fact that Russia is backsliding even further? Or, do you think that Russia is going to stay where it is, politically speaking.

It's terrible, because in the United States we simply don't exchange political power with blood and death... but it's hard to judge Russia as an American, or it's political culture, because no matter how badly things are, Russia is still improving from what it was during the USSR, on balance. Putin is still better than Kruschev or Stalin; he's a slimeball.... but at least he's a reasonably predictable slimeball.

That's interesting. Do you think Putin would be like them if he were allowed to be? When you say that Russia is getting better, is that across the board, or just in certain areas like politics, economics, culture, etc.

That said, I would *never* live in Russia. It is a dark, miserable, godforsaken place.

Would you ever visit?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 12:41:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 11:52:20 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Do you think the Nemtsov assassination is indicative of the fact that Russia is backsliding even further? Or, do you think that Russia is going to stay where it is, politically speaking.

It's hard to say, really. I don't think there is any specific meaning to Nemtsov's assassination with respect to Russia's broader political climate other than that it's indicative of general continuity. I think the basic factor to consider is "are there more or less political assassinations now than there were before the USSR fell"? I think the answer to that is really hard to determine, (1) because of limited information, (2) because most political assassinations don't make the news, and (3) the only reason we're hearing about Nemtsov's assassination is because he is a figure who is highly sympathetic to the West, and he has some international political significance.

On balance, I think there are fewer high profile political killings under Putin than there were previously, but I think that the ones that do take place are visible to remind everyone of "how things work." Putin was, we must recall, a counter-intel guy. He is extremely smart and deceptive. (I think he thinks he's smarter than he is, but that shouldn't be interpreted to suggest that Putin should be underestimated; he has a brilliant political mind -it's only that the rules he plays by are morally abhorrent to the totality of Western civilization. I am purposefully excluding "Russia" from "western civilization," here.)

It's terrible, because in the United States we simply don't exchange political power with blood and death... but it's hard to judge Russia as an American, or it's political culture, because no matter how badly things are, Russia is still improving from what it was during the USSR, on balance. Putin is still better than Kruschev or Stalin; he's a slimeball.... but at least he's a reasonably predictable slimeball.

That's interesting. Do you think Putin would be like them if he were allowed to be? When you say that Russia is getting better, is that across the board, or just in certain areas like politics, economics, culture, etc.

With regard to your first question, I don't know. I think that Putin is very much the product of the circumstance from which he comes (really, in all conceivable ways) and I think that there isn't a world where democracy could work in Russia like it works in Western Europe or the United States (or even South America).

With regard to your second question, it's sort of both. Politically, Russia has "improved." I also think it's generally less corrupt (even though it is still egregiously corrupt) now than it was in the 1990s after the USSR fell. Basically, when the Soviet Union fell, the people in power stole everything that belonged to the state, converted it to private property and called it theirs... and that's just how it happened. It was theft of the most supreme order; now, we have a class of Russian oligarchs who are wealthy because of that theft.

And there has always been a strong and unwavering connection between money and power in Russia, but it's sort of different there than it is in the United States. Here, in the United States, money buys power (the Koch brothers, for example). Political power is necessarily subservient to monied interests in the United States, to a considerable degree. But in Russia, those with political power have a kind of totalizing control over the monied elite that is inconceivable in the US. The politicians, who are "secretly wealthy" (like Putin and his inner circle) control the "oligarchs" who are "materially wealthy in objective reality."

Like, the Russians on Forbes 400 list answer to Putin, because they know that he can take it away -and he has, and does. There's a limit to what he can take because if they acted collectively they could overthrow him and his regime of power, but individually they're powerless. They do not get involved in politics in any way that conflicts with what Putin wants; and that's the trade off. They cannot challenge the political establishment, so they get to reap the benefits of political cronyism: the awarding of lucrative governmental contracts in Sochi, for instance.

If they do get big ideas and start to challenge the Russian political culture, for example, there are always costs. A really important, public figure with an international presence will be sent to a labor camp in Siberia -but not killed. Someone who is not a member of Russia's monied elite will just be killed; and the circumstances of their death reflect the degree to which the power establishment resents the person who they are killing. A rogue journalist will get poisoned by polonium (big scandal, very deliberate... clear message). A political rival will be gunned down in the street (quiet, gives the Kremlin a chance to preemptively strike, method of death suggests that the Kremlin didn't want to be obvious... but wanted to subtly convey the very clear message that "if you get ideas that are too big, it will cost your your life).

That said, I would *never* live in Russia. It is a dark, miserable, godforsaken place.

Would you ever visit?

If we were married, I would never take you there for practical reality. Two gay guys could be killed on the street in Moscow. That is a reality that just has to be faced. Men who do not exemplify the Russian ideal of masculinity, additionally, are necessarily at risk.

I could go, alone, without issue; but the problem is less a problem with the police than it is a problem with private citizens who think that torturing and killing gay people is an acceptable thing to do. I can communicate with them in a language that they will understand: brutal masculinity, fear, physical strength, overbearing self confidence, etc. They would leave me alone.

But Russians are like guard dogs: in the moment that they smell fear, they will pounce.. and that could cost a person who didn't know how to speak to them (and it's not even about speaking in Russian so much as conveying the words in a way that will make them think twice) whether they are American or not.

That established, the only way I would go to Russia as it is now is if there were hugely compelling financial incentives for me to go. I don't know what that figure would be, but it would be very very high. I like Russian culture, Russian food and drink (other than vodka). I appreciate Russian literature, and I know a thing or two about the Eastern Orthodox church. But, the reward would have to justify the risk...

I would not go to Russia for purposes of tourism, or anything like that. I have no family or friends in Russia. I know people who have lived in Russia, some of whom are good friends... but it is a nasty, miserable place.
Tsar of DDO
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.
You can call me Mark if you like.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:37:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.

Yeah, it could've.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:38:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Russia is a very dark, violent place. There is very little hope there. There are riving political factions in Russia that make the Tea Party and even the remnants of the American Ku Klux Klan look tame. The countrymen are violent and morally base; they are brutal and the lives they lead are tragic. Eventually there may come a time that the many boiling pots on the stove boil over simultaneously and revolution erupts, but it will likely not happen in our lifetime.

Wow, that's the media's view in a nutshell. Are you getting that from the media or have you lived in Russia/live there?
You can call me Mark if you like.
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:39:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:37:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.

Yeah, it could've.

They deliberately made themselves look like killers? Okay, it's unlikely.
You can call me Mark if you like.
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:39:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:38:09 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Russia is a very dark, violent place. There is very little hope there. There are riving political factions in Russia that make the Tea Party and even the remnants of the American Ku Klux Klan look tame. The countrymen are violent and morally base; they are brutal and the lives they lead are tragic. Eventually there may come a time that the many boiling pots on the stove boil over simultaneously and revolution erupts, but it will likely not happen in our lifetime.

Wow, that's the media's view in a nutshell. Are you getting that from the media or have you lived in Russia/live there?

lol

I'm guessing you're a fan or RT... right?
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:39:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:39:04 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:37:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.

Yeah, it could've.

They deliberately made themselves look like killers? Okay, it's unlikely.

lol, I'm guessing you're a fan of RT, right?
Tsar of DDO
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:39:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:38:09 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Russia is a very dark, violent place. There is very little hope there. There are riving political factions in Russia that make the Tea Party and even the remnants of the American Ku Klux Klan look tame. The countrymen are violent and morally base; they are brutal and the lives they lead are tragic. Eventually there may come a time that the many boiling pots on the stove boil over simultaneously and revolution erupts, but it will likely not happen in our lifetime.

Wow, that's the media's view in a nutshell. Are you getting that from the media or have you lived in Russia/live there?

lol

I'm guessing you're a fan or RT... right?

No, I asked you a question.
You can call me Mark if you like.
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:41:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:39:45 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:38:09 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Russia is a very dark, violent place. There is very little hope there. There are riving political factions in Russia that make the Tea Party and even the remnants of the American Ku Klux Klan look tame. The countrymen are violent and morally base; they are brutal and the lives they lead are tragic. Eventually there may come a time that the many boiling pots on the stove boil over simultaneously and revolution erupts, but it will likely not happen in our lifetime.

Wow, that's the media's view in a nutshell. Are you getting that from the media or have you lived in Russia/live there?

lol

I'm guessing you're a fan or RT... right?

No, I asked you a question.

Yes, and I'm not interested in that.... The US media does not have a consensus on the qualities of Russia as a country, or the Russian people as a people, so your assumption that it does (inherent in your question) is erroneous.
Tsar of DDO
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:41:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:39:04 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:37:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.

Yeah, it could've.

They deliberately made themselves look like killers? Okay, it's unlikely.

Actually, their new media is so totally biased that, at least at home, it won't be a PR problem for them. The rest of the world already thinks they're murders, so it's not really a problem for them.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:48:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:41:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:04 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:37:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.

Yeah, it could've.

They deliberately made themselves look like killers? Okay, it's unlikely.

Actually, their new media is so totally biased that, at least at home, it won't be a PR problem for them. The rest of the world already thinks they're murders, so it's not really a problem for them.

Well, Russians account for a miniscule part of the world's population... and their excellent propagandist media had no effect on me... why should Putin only be concerned about his domestic image? Shouldn't he be more concerned about, say, his international image?

If the rest of the world truly considers the Russian leaders murderers, how is that NOT a concern for the Russian government?

Judging from this article, RT is not all that biased on this topic (that's my own opinion).

http://rt.com...

Also, not all Russians in Russia support Putin, obviously.
You can call me Mark if you like.
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:49:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:41:15 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:45 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:38:09 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Russia is a very dark, violent place. There is very little hope there. There are riving political factions in Russia that make the Tea Party and even the remnants of the American Ku Klux Klan look tame. The countrymen are violent and morally base; they are brutal and the lives they lead are tragic. Eventually there may come a time that the many boiling pots on the stove boil over simultaneously and revolution erupts, but it will likely not happen in our lifetime.

Wow, that's the media's view in a nutshell. Are you getting that from the media or have you lived in Russia/live there?

lol

I'm guessing you're a fan or RT... right?

No, I asked you a question.

Yes, and I'm not interested in that.... The US media does not have a consensus on the qualities of Russia as a country, or the Russian people as a people, so your assumption that it does (inherent in your question) is erroneous.

Okay, I'll accept that my perception is false. Why is yours not?
You can call me Mark if you like.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 4:51:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:48:38 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:41:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:04 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:37:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.

Yeah, it could've.

They deliberately made themselves look like killers? Okay, it's unlikely.

Actually, their new media is so totally biased that, at least at home, it won't be a PR problem for them. The rest of the world already thinks they're murders, so it's not really a problem for them.

Well, Russians account for a miniscule part of the world's population... and their excellent propagandist media had no effect on me... why should Putin only be concerned about his domestic image? Shouldn't he be more concerned about, say, his international image?

He obviously doesn't care about his international image otherwise he wouldn't have instigated and/or fueled the Ukrainian civil war. All Putin cares about is power. It's that simple.

If the rest of the world truly considers the Russian leaders murderers, how is that NOT a concern for the Russian government?

Because WTF can the rest of the world do about it? It's the domestic populace that keeps Putin in power, and the sense of nationalism Putin's stirred up to keep his popularity high at home has created an us-them dynamic that has resulted in a willingness to pit Russia against the "West.

Also, not all Russians in Russia support Putin, obviously.

I never said that. But most do.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
debate_power
Posts: 726
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 5:03:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:51:25 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:48:38 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:41:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:04 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:37:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:36:59 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

It couldn't have been the Russian government.

Yeah, it could've.

They deliberately made themselves look like killers? Okay, it's unlikely.

Actually, their new media is so totally biased that, at least at home, it won't be a PR problem for them. The rest of the world already thinks they're murders, so it's not really a problem for them.

Well, Russians account for a miniscule part of the world's population... and their excellent propagandist media had no effect on me... why should Putin only be concerned about his domestic image? Shouldn't he be more concerned about, say, his international image?

He obviously doesn't care about his international image otherwise he wouldn't have instigated and/or fueled the Ukrainian civil war. All Putin cares about is power. It's that simple.

Really? NATO supported/fueled the revolution- in fact, it trained some of the vanguards in some of its bases in Estonia. Does NATO care about its image? Is not the takeover of an entire country more obvious than the takeover of a mere peninsula? Does NATO necessarily not care about its image because of its actions? Does the Russian government?

Things are rarely "that simple" in anything other than action movies.

If the rest of the world truly considers the Russian leaders murderers, how is that NOT a concern for the Russian government?

Because WTF can the rest of the world do about it? It's the domestic populace that keeps Putin in power, and the sense of nationalism Putin's stirred up to keep his popularity high at home has created an us-them dynamic that has resulted in a willingness to pit Russia against the "West.

Actions against Russia garner support more easily if they are supported by things that make Russia look "bad".

Also, considering that Russian state-run media admits that the man was killed, I daresay that the Russian people are not oblivious to the possibility that this man was killed by the Russian government... so why would the Russian government plant that possibility in their heads by making an obvious show of the killing? Whoever the killers were, they let the man's companion live, killed the man in broad daylight, killed him two days before the scheduled date of his protest, and killed him in the heart of Moscow right near the Kremlin!

Also, not all Russians in Russia support Putin, obviously.

I never said that. But most do.

Well, keep in mind that ones who don't might be affected by the death of a leading opposition member.
You can call me Mark if you like.
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/3/2015 5:29:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 4:49:38 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:41:15 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:45 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:39:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/3/2015 4:38:09 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:17:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/2/2015 8:52:27 PM, bsh1 wrote:
A prominent opponent of Pres. Putin was recently shot dead, in a professional hit job, in front of the Kremlin. Nemtsov was once Deputy PM of Russia, and had a trackrecord as a liberal and reformer. Below are some links to articles/videos about his death.

What do you think of these developments? What do they mean for Russia? What do they mean for the Crises in Ukraine, if anything?

http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.bbc.com...

I think that this is continuity of the same kind of politics that Russia has known since it came to be. There is a political class whose only fear is popular backlash when they consider killing political opponents. That's how politics have always worked in Russia, and i have very little hope that it will ever change.

Russia is a very dark, violent place. There is very little hope there. There are riving political factions in Russia that make the Tea Party and even the remnants of the American Ku Klux Klan look tame. The countrymen are violent and morally base; they are brutal and the lives they lead are tragic. Eventually there may come a time that the many boiling pots on the stove boil over simultaneously and revolution erupts, but it will likely not happen in our lifetime.

Wow, that's the media's view in a nutshell. Are you getting that from the media or have you lived in Russia/live there?

lol

I'm guessing you're a fan or RT... right?

No, I asked you a question.

Yes, and I'm not interested in that.... The US media does not have a consensus on the qualities of Russia as a country, or the Russian people as a people, so your assumption that it does (inherent in your question) is erroneous.

Okay, I'll accept that my perception is false. Why is yours not?

That isn't really a meaningful question.
Tsar of DDO