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Mexico and legalizing drugs

I-am-a-panda
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8/9/2010 3:34:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If this does work, it's going to have a huge effect on US border security. More people will be checked on the way into America for drugs than anything else. It may even push border states like California to legalise drugs, where it is definitely ion consideration. It's good to see a nation like Mexico thinking clearly for once.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
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8/9/2010 1:04:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/9/2010 3:34:31 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If this does work, it's going to have a huge effect on US border security. More people will be checked on the way into America for drugs than anything else. It may even push border states like California to legalise drugs, where it is definitely ion consideration. It's good to see a nation like Mexico thinking clearly for once.

Do you really think it would be so different for the border states? The cartels aren't exactly using tons of restraint now.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/11/2010 12:10:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm all in favour of legitimizing all "social" drugs.

It would cut crime rates overnight as prices fell and availability increased, and in no time at all nature would have cleansed the human gene pool of the mad, sad, and bad.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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8/11/2010 1:16:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Thanks for the link.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/11/2010 6:17:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 12:10:37 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
It would cut crime rates overnight as prices fell and availability increased, and in no time at all nature would have cleansed the human gene pool of the mad, sad, and bad.

Back up this statement, please.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/11/2010 6:23:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 6:17:48 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 8/11/2010 12:10:37 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
It would cut crime rates overnight as prices fell and availability increased, and in no time at all nature would have cleansed the human gene pool of the mad, sad, and bad.

Back up this statement, please.

weed would be easily accessible lol.
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Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/12/2010 1:50:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/11/2010 6:17:48 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 8/11/2010 12:10:37 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
It would cut crime rates overnight as prices fell and availability increased, and in no time at all nature would have cleansed the human gene pool of the mad, sad, and bad.

Back up this statement, please.

People who resort to drugs fall into the category mad, bad, or sad and always selfish.

Ready availability of drugs would result in such people rapidly killing themselves off. That would be a GOOD thing.

Additionally any inherited "addict" behaviour that some believe to exist would be eventually eliminated as the genetic material was removed along with the carcases of those who carry the "addict" gene.

Moreover the transmission of AIDS would likewise be reduced as so many injecting druggies act as conduits of the virus of immorality.

Nature, when left to itself, has a remarkable ability to cure its mistakes.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/12/2010 8:00:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm glad we're having this discussion, even if it is a bit ridiculous that it needs to be had. Although I have to say there are very few people on DDO that know a damn thing about drugs other than what Wikipedia has to say.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/12/2010 8:33:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Legalizing drugs is the most obvious solution to many problems for both Mexico and the U.S. The positive repercussions are blatant and abundant; the negative are rooted in stereotypes and misgivings about drugs, like Rob said, by people who know literally nothing about them. I don't know how I feel about legalizing stuff like PCP, heroin and meth, though. I think people need to be reasonable and understand the ginormous difference between doing meth and smoking pot, or shooting up heroin and taking a hit of ecstasy. Laws should be appropriate and based on the legalization of a certain drug's impact to society (including crime and criminal activity) as well as based on factual evidence from credible, unbiased sources.
President of DDO
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/12/2010 8:40:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 8:33:03 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Legalizing drugs is the most obvious solution to many problems for both Mexico and the U.S. The positive repercussions are blatant and abundant; the negative are rooted in stereotypes and misgivings about drugs, like Rob said, by people who know literally nothing about them. I don't know how I feel about legalizing stuff like PCP, heroin and meth, though. I think people need to be reasonable and understand the ginormous difference between doing meth and smoking pot, or shooting up heroin and taking a hit of ecstasy. Laws should be appropriate and based on the legalization of a certain drug's impact to society (including crime and criminal activity) as well as based on factual evidence from credible, unbiased sources.
Let us take a look at this.

Firstly, is it due to personal harm that the other drugs should not be legalized?
Secondly, marijuana can be too enjoyable and abused. Not a big difference between that and moderate amounts of PCP etc.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/12/2010 8:56:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 8:40:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/12/2010 8:33:03 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Legalizing drugs is the most obvious solution to many problems for both Mexico and the U.S. The positive repercussions are blatant and abundant; the negative are rooted in stereotypes and misgivings about drugs, like Rob said, by people who know literally nothing about them. I don't know how I feel about legalizing stuff like PCP, heroin and meth, though. I think people need to be reasonable and understand the ginormous difference between doing meth and smoking pot, or shooting up heroin and taking a hit of ecstasy. Laws should be appropriate and based on the legalization of a certain drug's impact to society (including crime and criminal activity) as well as based on factual evidence from credible, unbiased sources.
Let us take a look at this.

Firstly, is it due to personal harm that the other drugs should not be legalized?
Secondly, marijuana can be too enjoyable and abused. Not a big difference between that and moderate amounts of PCP etc.

I'm actually in agreement with Mirza's thinking. TheL help me understand. First is the thinking that if marijuana is legal it will satisfy the demand for drugs in general? I think you know that's not going to happen. By maintaining the drug laws on the hard drugs, how do you improve the crime rate, or at least stagnate the crime rate on drug related infractions? I understand what you are saying, but it seems like you are drawing a rather arbitrary line in the sand because of what you think is more safe than other things. Don't get me wrong, i'm still a libertarian, and am against drug laws, but for other reasons more based on my political philosophy.

Another question that i honestly don't know the answer to, of the current drug related crimes, how many are directly due to pot? My guess is a lot less, and they are probably less violent crimes given the nature of pot. So the problem remains unchanged by keeping the drug laws status quo (which i think you are not saying), and a different way of looking at the problem is required.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/12/2010 9:06:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mirza -

I have been asking to debate you on the legalization of drugs for 3 months. You keep insisting that you don't have the time, though promised you would in August (and here we are lol... are you ready?). Apparently you only have time to debate in the forums, though I'm super busy and not able to discuss this with you at the moment. I've explained my sentiments on the subject innumerable times here and I'm ready and willing to debate this with you at any time. I'd rather spend a few minutes organizing my thoughts in a cohesive debate round than arguing pointlessly here in the forums. I'll respond to you if and when you finally accept the challenge.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/12/2010 9:06:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 8:40:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
Secondly, marijuana can be too enjoyable and abused. Not a big difference between that and moderate amounts of PCP etc.

By the way - LMFAO at this!

Woooooooow. Talk about clueless.
President of DDO
I-am-a-panda
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8/12/2010 9:09:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 8:40:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
Firstly, is it due to personal harm that the other drugs should not be legalized?

WHo said her drugs shouldn't be legalsied?

Secondly, marijuana can be too enjoyable and abused. Not a big difference between that and moderate amounts of PCP etc.

Any abuse of Marijuana is the users sole fault.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/12/2010 9:11:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Innomen, my laptop is about to die, but quickly:

At 8/12/2010 8:56:37 AM, innomen wrote:
By maintaining the drug laws on the hard drugs, how do you improve the crime rate, or at least stagnate the crime rate on drug related infractions?

First of all, legalizing drugs would eliminate 50% of crime all-together because most crime (and most of what people are in jail for) are drugs in the first place: making, distributing, etc. Second, if your concern is about what people DO on drugs, then the shortest answer I can give (again because my laptop should die in a matter of seconds) is to simply look at the laws we have regarding alcohol. If you do something under the influence of alcohol - you're punished - punished far more than even if you were sober, because you were so irrepsonsible with your use (i.e. drunk driving).

Another question that i honestly don't know the answer to, of the current drug related crimes, how many are directly due to pot? My guess is a lot less, and they are probably less violent crimes given the nature of pot.

The majority of people in jail are there due to minor drug offenses - including pot. You're right in that pot doesn't make people violent at all whatsoever in the slightest (in fact it's medically known to do the exact opposite).

"The FBI reported Saturday that the number of arrests for violations of the marijuana laws hit an all-time high of 755,186 in 2003. Despite a decade of marijuana law reforms and protestations by police chiefs across the land that marijuana is not a priority, that figure is nearly double the number of people arrested for pot in 1993. The number of people arrested on marijuana charges last year also exceeds the number arrested for violent crimes by more than 150,000."

http://www.umsl.edu...

So the problem remains unchanged by keeping the drug laws status quo (which i think you are not saying), and a different way of looking at the problem is required.

What's your solution? If it's not legalization, I'll debate you on it.

g2g for nao.
President of DDO
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/12/2010 9:12:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:06:01 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Mirza -

I have been asking to debate you on the legalization of drugs for 3 months.
Not true.

You keep insisting that you don't have the time, though promised you would in August (and here we are lol... are you ready?).
I said that I had many personal reasons, and you do not have to show-off with it, dear. I have pulled out even my own challenges proposed to others. And I made a deal with you on August 8, yes, until I realized that it would not be a good idea at all, and I still told you that yours is first on my debate list in any case.

Apparently you only have time to debate in the forums,
Which are not timed.

though I'm super busy and not able to discuss this with you at the moment. I've explained my sentiments on the subject innumerable times here and I'm ready and willing to debate this with you at any time.
If you want to change my opinion, which you definitely cannot, then try here. Why are people crying about formal debates? If anything, I almost always get opposed by numerous people, sometimes over five at once, so that should be even better at changing my opinion than a debate where libertarians and others will vote on you.

I'd rather spend a few minutes organizing my thoughts in a cohesive debate round than arguing pointlessly here in the forums. I'll respond to you if and when you finally accept the challenge.
I do. Answer here.
I-am-a-panda
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8/12/2010 9:13:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:09:49 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/12/2010 8:40:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
Firstly, is it due to personal harm that the other drugs should not be legalized?

Who said hard drugs shouldn't be legalised?

Fix'd
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/12/2010 9:14:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:06:34 AM, theLwerd wrote:
By the way - LMFAO at this!

Woooooooow. Talk about clueless.
Let us deal with the facts. Tell me what abuse of marijuana and small doses of PCP lead to, and I think you will do the opposite of writing "LMFAO."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/12/2010 9:15:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:11:52 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Innomen, my laptop is about to die, but quickly:

At 8/12/2010 8:56:37 AM, innomen wrote:
By maintaining the drug laws on the hard drugs, how do you improve the crime rate, or at least stagnate the crime rate on drug related infractions?

First of all, legalizing drugs would eliminate 50% of crime all-together because most crime (and most of what people are in jail for) are drugs in the first place: making, distributing, etc. Second, if your concern is about what people DO on drugs, then the shortest answer I can give (again because my laptop should die in a matter of seconds) is to simply look at the laws we have regarding alcohol. If you do something under the influence of alcohol - you're punished - punished far more than even if you were sober, because you were so irrepsonsible with your use (i.e. drunk driving).

Another question that i honestly don't know the answer to, of the current drug related crimes, how many are directly due to pot? My guess is a lot less, and they are probably less violent crimes given the nature of pot.

The majority of people in jail are there due to minor drug offenses - including pot. You're right in that pot doesn't make people violent at all whatsoever in the slightest (in fact it's medically known to do the exact opposite).

"The FBI reported Saturday that the number of arrests for violations of the marijuana laws hit an all-time high of 755,186 in 2003. Despite a decade of marijuana law reforms and protestations by police chiefs across the land that marijuana is not a priority, that figure is nearly double the number of people arrested for pot in 1993. The number of people arrested on marijuana charges last year also exceeds the number arrested for violent crimes by more than 150,000."

http://www.umsl.edu...

So the problem remains unchanged by keeping the drug laws status quo (which i think you are not saying), and a different way of looking at the problem is required.

What's your solution? If it's not legalization, I'll debate you on it.

g2g for nao.

A complete legalization of the sort of soft drugs, and a de-criminalization of the hard drugs.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/12/2010 9:16:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:09:49 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
WHo said her drugs shouldn't be legalsied?
She is not sure about PCP, meth, etc. I ask if it is due to personal harm o something else.

Any abuse of Marijuana is the users sole fault.
So, where lies the confusion about legalizing marijuana and PCP, and whatever amounts are taken are the consumers' own faults?
I-am-a-panda
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8/12/2010 9:18:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:16:09 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/12/2010 9:09:49 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
WHo said her drugs shouldn't be legalsied?
She is not sure about PCP, meth, etc. I ask if it is due to personal harm o something else.

Ok, moving on then.


Any abuse of Marijuana is the users sole fault.
So, where lies the confusion about legalizing marijuana and PCP, and whatever amounts are taken are the consumers' own faults?

Yes. If I stab myself with a knife, who's fault is it, mine or the person I bought the knife off of?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/12/2010 9:20:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:18:46 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Yes. If I stab myself with a knife, who's fault is it, mine or the person I bought the knife off of?
Mostly you, but he helped you with a crime.

The point is that it is a simple logic. Marijuana can easily be abused, PCP can be taken in moderate amounts (and compare the effects for yourself). Of course, I am against all of them, except in cases of necessity.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/12/2010 9:22:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
And I certainly hope that nobody will argue for "enjoyment" of the drugs. We live in the 21st century where we have more enjoyable things than ever before. And for us who live in the West, we can enjoy even food that is far better than marijuana. The only good argument is the war against drug crime being won if drugs are legalized, but then all drugs would have to be. I do not understand why theLwerd does not see this when she talks about the reduction of crime.
I-am-a-panda
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8/12/2010 9:27:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:20:31 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/12/2010 9:18:46 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Yes. If I stab myself with a knife, who's fault is it, mine or the person I bought the knife off of?
Mostly you, but he helped you with a crime.

No, he sold me the knife. He had no intention of it harming me.


The point is that it is a simple logic. Marijuana can easily be abused, PCP can be taken in moderate amounts (and compare the effects for yourself). Of course, I am against all of them, except in cases of necessity.

Unless someone advertises something to the contrary about any product, including Marijuana, any abuse suffered is the sole fault of the user. If McDonalds tells me there are no artificial additives and no fat in their food, and there indeed is, they're at fault. If they don't make these false promises, and I get fat, it's my fault.

Similarly, if a legal Marijuana dealer tells me Marijuana has absolutely no drawbacks, and I suffer from health issues as a result of his product, I can sue him, as he is at fault. If he says there are potential drawbacks, and I suffer health issues from Marijuana, it's my fault. I was warned.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/12/2010 9:30:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:27:36 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
No, he sold me the knife. He had no intention of it harming me.
If he did not know what you would use it for, then he is free from blame.

Unless someone advertises something to the contrary about any product, including Marijuana, any abuse suffered is the sole fault of the user. If McDonalds tells me there are no artificial additives and no fat in their food, and there indeed is, they're at fault. If they don't make these false promises, and I get fat, it's my fault.

Similarly, if a legal Marijuana dealer tells me Marijuana has absolutely no drawbacks, and I suffer from health issues as a result of his product, I can sue him, as he is at fault. If he says there are potential drawbacks, and I suffer health issues from Marijuana, it's my fault. I was warned.
And what has that got to do with my point?
I-am-a-panda
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8/12/2010 9:30:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:22:29 AM, Mirza wrote:
And I certainly hope that nobody will argue for "enjoyment" of the drugs. We live in the 21st century where we have more enjoyable things than ever before. And for us who live in the West, we can enjoy even food that is far better than marijuana. The only good argument is the war against drug crime being won if drugs are legalized, but then all drugs would have to be. I do not understand why theLwerd does not see this when she talks about the reduction of crime.

Enjoyment is relative. I'm sure you don't enjoy Heavy Metal music, but I do. You mightn't find enjoyment from Marijuana, but I might. Unless my enjoyment infringes on anothers rights, there's nothing wrong with it.

Also, criminals lose out if drugs are legalised, because their business is now taxed, and the state wins out from revenue and less expenditure on crime. Note that all the way through this process the people who lose out in the War on Drugs is the ordinary person, and who wins when drugs are legalised is still the ordinary person.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
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8/12/2010 9:31:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/12/2010 9:30:17 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/12/2010 9:27:36 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
No, he sold me the knife. He had no intention of it harming me.
If he did not know what you would use it for, then he is free from blame.

And since there is absolutely no way he knew I would use it for that purpose, he is blameless.


Unless someone advertises something to the contrary about any product, including Marijuana, any abuse suffered is the sole fault of the user. If McDonalds tells me there are no artificial additives and no fat in their food, and there indeed is, they're at fault. If they don't make these false promises, and I get fat, it's my fault.

Similarly, if a legal Marijuana dealer tells me Marijuana has absolutely no drawbacks, and I suffer from health issues as a result of his product, I can sue him, as he is at fault. If he says there are potential drawbacks, and I suffer health issues from Marijuana, it's my fault. I was warned.
And what has that got to do with my point?

The point is the consumer is at fault if they are harmed by products they know might do them harm.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.