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Dr. Laura

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/18/2010 2:26:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
... is finally quitting radio.

This doctor of physiology is known for her socially conservative views (she's a long-time foe of the LGBT community) and most recently for saying the "N word" repeatedly on her show causing so much controversy she decided to quit.

Though I disagree with Dr. Laura on pretty much everything, I find this most recent conflict to be one of the only things on which we agree. Black people are hyper-sensitive about race and refuse to discuss it rationally in my experience (even if her conduct with the caller on her show was totally inappropriate considering they called for advice and got a tirade instead).

In case you've been living under a rock, basically someone called her show and she raised the issue of the N word. She pointed out that on HBO black comics say it repeatedly, in rap music black people use the word repeatedly, and when blacks say it, it's affectionate - but when white people say it, it's racist. She claims she was trying to raise a "philosophical point" but the black community including the Rev. Al was up in arms and she has been blasted all over the media despite her seemingly sarcastic apology. The thing is - doesn't she raise a good point?

The reality is that non-blacks will never know what it's like to be black - just as men don't know what it's like to be women, so the experience is different and that should be conveyed through mature discussion. The N word has a totally different connotation to Dr. Laura and whites then it does to blacks. Though instead of TALKING about that difference and explaining to her (in all of her white ignorance) the answer to her question, she was attacked. I don't get it. Most frustratingly of all, blacks always say "there needs to be open discussion about racism" and yet whenever a question about race is raised - they get too offended to even discuss it!

Of course I'm generalizing, but it seems that even asking about racism is too touchy of a subject. The black caller was complaining that her white husband's friends ask, "How do blacks feel about X or Y or Z..." Um, so? They're not being rude - probably just genuinely curious. But apparently it's racist and inappropriate to ask what something is like from a black perspective... give me a break. Talking about our differences and our experiences because of those differences are the only way to foster understanding.

I can't believe I'm siding with Dr. Laura. For once.
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/18/2010 2:34:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Discussing the N-word (which it is hypocritical to use it and cry foul when others use it) is not a problem.

But a person asking "what do black people think about X" is an utterly absurd and offensive question. As if all black peope have the same opinions. Not to mention, why should blacks hold a certain view on something because of their race (which is being implied by asking "what black peope think about an issue)?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/18/2010 2:39:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To say "What do blacks think about X..." is silly in that one person cannot possibly represent an entire race. However, it's NOT silly to ask what something is life from a black perspective (or how a black person feels about something in particular).

Here's an example: You will never ever ever hear a gay person ask someone, "So when did you first realize you were straight?" However gay people get asked that question ALL the time. I am literally asked "when I realized I was gay" probably every single day by new people I meet or even old friends. It doesn't offend me. It's logically stupid to me (again, because that's like asking someone when they knew they were straight... duh) but I'm not going to throw a titty attack over it. People mistake inquisitions and genuine curiosity for bigotry. It's ignorance, yes, but aren't they admitting that by asking questions in the first place?
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lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/18/2010 2:54:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 2:39:01 PM, theLwerd wrote:
To say "What do blacks think about X..." is silly in that one person cannot possibly represent an entire race. However, it's NOT silly to ask what something is life from a black perspective (or how a black person feels about something in particular).

Here's an example: You will never ever ever hear a gay person ask someone, "So when did you first realize you were straight?" However gay people get asked that question ALL the time. I am literally asked "when I realized I was gay" probably every single day by new people I meet or even old friends. It doesn't offend me. It's logically stupid to me (again, because that's like asking someone when they knew they were straight... duh) but I'm not going to throw a titty attack over it. People mistake inquisitions and genuine curiosity for bigotry. It's ignorance, yes, but aren't they admitting that by asking questions in the first place?

This.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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8/18/2010 3:30:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 2:26:39 PM, theLwerd wrote:
... is finally quitting radio.

This doctor of physiology is known for her socially conservative views (she's a long-time foe of the LGBT community) and most recently for saying the "N word" repeatedly on her show causing so much controversy she decided to quit.

Though I disagree with Dr. Laura on pretty much everything, I find this most recent conflict to be one of the only things on which we agree. Black people are hyper-sensitive about race and refuse to discuss it rationally in my experience (even if her conduct with the caller on her show was totally inappropriate considering they called for advice and got a tirade instead).


In my experience it's the other way around; some white people will just dismiss any complaint of racism as being "hyper-sensitive" or using the "race card" - that is unless, of course, they deem it properly racist enough for black people to legitimately complain about. I'm not sure how that adds to rational discussion.

In case you've been living under a rock, basically someone called her show and she raised the issue of the N word. She pointed out that on HBO black comics say it repeatedly, in rap music black people use the word repeatedly, and when blacks say it, it's affectionate - but when white people say it, it's racist.

You do realize there's a lot of black people who don't approve of anybody saying the word either, right?

She claims she was trying to raise a "philosophical point" but the black community including the Rev. Al was up in arms and she has been blasted all over the media despite her seemingly sarcastic apology. The thing is - doesn't she raise a good point?

No. How is it a good point to deal with a woman's frustration by saying "Well, other black people say it too". Ok? That's nice. How about she address the issue? How about she explain to her why she shouldn't be offended that her husbands white friends think she is some type of conduit to "black think" just by virtue of being black.

The reality is that non-blacks will never know what it's like to be black - just as men don't know what it's like to be women, so the experience is different and that should be conveyed through mature discussion. The N word has a totally different connotation to Dr. Laura and whites then it does to blacks.

What connotation does the N-word have to whites? What do whites think about the N-word, Lwerd? You should know. You're white.

Though instead of TALKING about that difference and explaining to her (in all of her white ignorance) the answer to her question, she was attacked. I don't get it. Most frustratingly of all, blacks always say "there needs to be open discussion about racism" and yet whenever a question about race is raised - they get too offended to even discuss it!

Uh, who attacked first? Because I think it was Dr. Laura who started getting aggressive first. With the "that's not offensive. I don't think that's offensive at all. You know what's offensive is *goes on long rant*" (paraphrased). And, again, I find it to be the opposite, usually. Some white people seem to get offended that black people still get offended by "racism" that white people (ironically) deem inconsequential.

Lol, generalizations.

Of course I'm generalizing, but it seems that even asking about racism is too touchy of a subject. The black caller was complaining that her white husband's friends ask, "How do blacks feel about X or Y or Z..." Um, so? They're not being rude - probably just genuinely curious. But apparently it's racist and inappropriate to ask what something is like from a black perspective... give me a break. Talking about our differences and our experiences because of those differences are the only way to foster understanding.


Please. That's not asking what something is like from a black perspective. That'd be "what do you, as a black person, think about X and how do your experiences inform what you think about X?" Not to mention saying something like that would avoid a lot of unneeded conflict.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/18/2010 3:41:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 2:39:01 PM, theLwerd wrote:
To say "What do blacks think about X..." is silly in that one person cannot possibly represent an entire race. However, it's NOT silly to ask what something is life from a black perspective (or how a black person feels about something in particular).

Here's an example: You will never ever ever hear a gay person ask someone, "So when did you first realize you were straight?" However gay people get asked that question ALL the time. I am literally asked "when I realized I was gay" probably every single day by new people I meet or even old friends. It doesn't offend me. It's logically stupid to me (again, because that's like asking someone when they knew they were straight... duh) but I'm not going to throw a titty attack over it. People mistake inquisitions and genuine curiosity for bigotry. It's ignorance, yes, but aren't they admitting that by asking questions in the first place?
It is not the same at all. Heterosexuality is far more accepted by societies in average than homosexuality. Knowing that you are straight is generally much simpler than knowing that you are gay. When you see that all people around you are into the opposite sex, your parents talk about you marrying someone of the opposite sex, having children with them, etc., it is more complicated to realize that you are different and gay, not straight.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/18/2010 3:52:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 3:30:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/18/2010 2:26:39 PM, theLwerd wrote:
... is finally quitting radio.

This doctor of physiology is known for her socially conservative views (she's a long-time foe of the LGBT community) and most recently for saying the "N word" repeatedly on her show causing so much controversy she decided to quit.

Though I disagree with Dr. Laura on pretty much everything, I find this most recent conflict to be one of the only things on which we agree. Black people are hyper-sensitive about race and refuse to discuss it rationally in my experience (even if her conduct with the caller on her show was totally inappropriate considering they called for advice and got a tirade instead).


In my experience it's the other way around; some white people will just dismiss any complaint of racism as being "hyper-sensitive" or using the "race card" - that is unless, of course, they deem it properly racist enough for black people to legitimately complain about. I'm not sure how that adds to rational discussion.


Sometimes. It depends on the individuals that are involved.

In case you've been living under a rock, basically someone called her show and she raised the issue of the N word. She pointed out that on HBO black comics say it repeatedly, in rap music black people use the word repeatedly, and when blacks say it, it's affectionate - but when white people say it, it's racist.

You do realize there's a lot of black people who don't approve of anybody saying the word either, right?


Personally I do.

She claims she was trying to raise a "philosophical point" but the black community including the Rev. Al was up in arms and she has been blasted all over the media despite her seemingly sarcastic apology. The thing is - doesn't she raise a good point?

No. How is it a good point to deal with a woman's frustration by saying "Well, other black people say it too". Ok? That's nice. How about she address the issue? How about she explain to her why she shouldn't be offended that her husbands white friends think she is some type of conduit to "black think" just by virtue of being black.


Offened maybe, but why not just question how they think and why they think they can group their thinking together like that.

The reality is that non-blacks will never know what it's like to be black - just as men don't know what it's like to be women, so the experience is different and that should be conveyed through mature discussion. The N word has a totally different connotation to Dr. Laura and whites then it does to blacks.

What connotation does the N-word have to whites? What do whites think about the N-word, Lwerd? You should know. You're white.


To me it just means a sh*t load of problems offended people etc unless a black person says it.

Though instead of TALKING about that difference and explaining to her (in all of her white ignorance) the answer to her question, she was attacked. I don't get it. Most frustratingly of all, blacks always say "there needs to be open discussion about racism" and yet whenever a question about race is raised - they get too offended to even discuss it!

Uh, who attacked first? Because I think it was Dr. Laura who started getting aggressive first. With the "that's not offensive. I don't think that's offensive at all. You know what's offensive is *goes on long rant*" (paraphrased). And, again, I find it to be the opposite, usually. Some white people seem to get offended that black people still get offended by "racism" that white people (ironically) deem inconsequential.


eh, depends. I'm not into sports but I heard like some backetball player or something was calling a coach that was trying to pay him more to not leave a slavedriver for not letting him go in peace. That just doesn't add up in my mind.

Lol, generalizations.


Lol yep.

Of course I'm generalizing, but it seems that even asking about racism is too touchy of a subject. The black caller was complaining that her white husband's friends ask, "How do blacks feel about X or Y or Z..." Um, so? They're not being rude - probably just genuinely curious. But apparently it's racist and inappropriate to ask what something is like from a black perspective... give me a break. Talking about our differences and our experiences because of those differences are the only way to foster understanding.


Please. That's not asking what something is like from a black perspective. That'd be "what do you, as a black person, think about X and how do your experiences inform what you think about X?" Not to mention saying something like that would avoid a lot of unneeded conflict.

Depends on the situation again. "As a black person how do you feel about all the racism?" valid as "From what you've seen what do you think of racism?" idk I agree that the wording could be better but its not really that big of a deal.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/18/2010 4:16:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 3:41:37 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/18/2010 2:39:01 PM, theLwerd wrote:
To say "What do blacks think about X..." is silly in that one person cannot possibly represent an entire race. However, it's NOT silly to ask what something is life from a black perspective (or how a black person feels about something in particular).

Here's an example: You will never ever ever hear a gay person ask someone, "So when did you first realize you were straight?" However gay people get asked that question ALL the time. I am literally asked "when I realized I was gay" probably every single day by new people I meet or even old friends. It doesn't offend me. It's logically stupid to me (again, because that's like asking someone when they knew they were straight... duh) but I'm not going to throw a titty attack over it. People mistake inquisitions and genuine curiosity for bigotry. It's ignorance, yes, but aren't they admitting that by asking questions in the first place?
It is not the same at all. Heterosexuality is far more accepted by societies in average than homosexuality. Knowing that you are straight is generally much simpler than knowing that you are gay. When you see that all people around you are into the opposite sex, your parents talk about you marrying someone of the opposite sex, having children with them, etc., it is more complicated to realize that you are different and gay, not straight.

Unfortunately that is true.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/18/2010 4:50:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 2:26:39 PM, theLwerd wrote:
... is finally quitting radio.

This doctor of physiology is known for her socially conservative views (she's a long-time foe of the LGBT community) and most recently for saying the "N word" repeatedly on her show causing so much controversy she decided to quit.:

That's Dr. Laura code for: The network fired me, but spared me total embarrassment by allowing me to say that I quit of my own volition.

Black people are hyper-sensitive about race and refuse to discuss it rationally in my experience:

That's been my experience too, but it's still an anecdote.

In case you've been living under a rock, basically someone called her show and she raised the issue of the N word. She pointed out that on HBO black comics say it repeatedly, in rap music black people use the word repeatedly, and when blacks say it, it's affectionate - but when white people say it, it's racist. She claims she was trying to raise a "philosophical point" but the black community including the Rev. Al was up in arms and she has been blasted all over the media despite her seemingly sarcastic apology. The thing is - doesn't she raise a good point?:

Yes, she does. F*ck Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the rest of the Poverty Pimps who politicize race and pull the race card bullsh*t.

The reality is that non-blacks will never know what it's like to be black:

I know what it's like to be called a "spic" or a "cracker" (depending upon who's insulting me), but I don't get hysterical over it. I value the freedom of speech just too much.

The N word has a totally different connotation to Dr. Laura and whites then it does to blacks. Though instead of TALKING about that difference and explaining to her (in all of her white ignorance) the answer to her question, she was attacked. I don't get it. Most frustratingly of all, blacks always say "there needs to be open discussion about racism" and yet whenever a question about race is raised - they get too offended to even discuss it!:

Well, hang on, there are tons of black folk who see validity in your position. Curiously, though, they're usually of a libertarian or conservative persuasion. Probably the greatest book I've ever read on race relations.

http://www.tsowell.com...

The author is black.

Of course I'm generalizing, but it seems that even asking about racism is too touchy of a subject. The black caller was complaining that her white husband's friends ask, "How do blacks feel about X or Y or Z..." Um, so? They're not being rude - probably just genuinely curious. But apparently it's racist and inappropriate to ask what something is like from a black perspective... give me a break. Talking about our differences and our experiences because of those differences are the only way to foster understanding.:

Yeah, but you have this whole kooky "logic" thing going for you.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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8/18/2010 5:01:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sorry for length of post.

Words can be weapons and n!gger is one of the most emotionally loaded terms in the English language, perhaps even the most loaded. Context is crucial. A lot of derogatory terms can work this way. If I call a gay person a f@g in a certain context, they will most likely be offended, even if they are someone who happily labels themselves and their gay friends this way, as an ironically affectionate term.

I don't understand why some people seem to seek permission to use offensive terms, "he can say it and no-one bats an eyelid, why can't I?" The answer to this seems obvious to me. "It's political correctness gone mad!" No, it's called being polite and not offensive for the sake of it.

From my understanding, the word "black" was once considered moderately racially insensitive, although never on the same scale as "n!gger". Although black people in the US, still faced Jim Crow "no n!gger" signs, they were encouraged to think of themselves as "coloured" rather than "black" with all it's negative connotations of darkness and sin.

But in the civil rights era, black people started to embrace the term "black", with community leaders like Malcolm X, revolutionary groups like the Black Panthers and popular musicians like James Brown encouraging people to describe themselves as black in a positive self-affirming manner. N!gger remained the offensive term, that white people said behind closed doors and black people said when they wanted to p!ss each other off.

The modern use of n!gger as "n!gga" began in the late 80s, around the time that NWA dropped. This was intentionally controversial usage, intended to generate publicity and sell records (which it certainly did, to black and white kids) but was also a reflection of the reality of how black people in the inner-cities addressed each other, offensively calling one another n!gger the way they also called each other c0ck-sucker and mother-f*cker.

Quickly though, the craze caught on. Other rappers saw the sales figures and became "n!ggas" too, some more conscious MCs started using it in a self-affirming way similar to JB's "Say it Loud, I'm black and I'm proud" and soon most black musicians, black comedians and a lot of black kids were all happy to be n!ggas in the ultimate irony of an extremely derogatory term, used as a casual, and even positive descriptor.

Q-Tip, on Tribe's "Sucka N!gga", talks about his discomfort with the term, while acknowledging his own casual use of it:

"See, nigga first was used back in the Deep South
Fallin' out between the dome of the white man's mouth
It means that we will never grow, you know the word dummy
Other niggas in the community think it's crummy
But I don't, neither does the youth cause we
em-brace adversity it goes right with the race
And being that we use it as a term of endearment
Niggas start to bug to the dome is where the fear went
Now the little shorties say it all of the time
And a whole bunch of niggas throw the word in they rhyme
Yo I start to flinch, as I try not to say it
But my lips is like a doowop as I start to spray it"

I'm a hip hop DJ and I must own hundreds of records that use the word repeatedly, but I think it's entirely appropriate that, as a white man, I feel uncomfortable using it myself. I find the gratuitous usage of it by black people moderately offensive, but again it is all about context. Often it is used as an artistic statement of irony, The Roots, who acknowledge that most of their audience is white, recorded a track called 75 bars, almost all 75 use the word n!gga in an aggresive manner and the video makes the point all the more explicit by showing them abducting, torturing and setting fire to a white man.

I posted one of the NYoil vids recently in another thread, but they belong here too. He views the word as totally negative, in the first tune "Y'all Should All Get Lynched" attacked pop gangsta rappers who call themselves n!gga and glorify in all the negative stereotypes about black people, the original video was banned, this one is much milder. The "What Up My Wigger" tune continues this theme but addresses the word's use by non-black people as well. NY launches a spiel of derogatory slurs against other races to make his point. lyrics here: http://www.lyricsreg.com...

Casual, nonchalant racism bugs me almost as much as explicit, organised racism does, and the Encyclpedia Dramatica generation's attraction to the n-word doesn't sit right with me at all. America is obviously still extremely racially divided, but white Americans who complain about racial hypersensitivity on the part of black people need to see things from both sides.

It's true that people can sometimes play "the race card" to their unfair advantage, but a certain amount of sensitivity is justified. You are a young nation and it may seem like ancient history to you now, but you must understand that the oldest black people alive now, themselves lived under Jim Crow laws and their grandparents were probably the children of slaves.

Racism may be much less destructive nowadays than it was in the past but it is still endemic, as a quick stroll around the internets, to a rural English pub (and presumably the US redneck equivalent) or an urban factory shop-floor can still confirm.
belle
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8/18/2010 5:07:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 2:39:01 PM, theLwerd wrote:
To say "What do blacks think about X..." is silly in that one person cannot possibly represent an entire race. However, it's NOT silly to ask what something is life from a black perspective (or how a black person feels about something in particular).

asking how someone feels about something is different than asking them for the "black perspective" or even a black perspective. when you ask someone how they feel about something "as a black person" not only is it redundant (if they are black) but it makes their perspective into more than it is (a single person vs a representative of a community). some people choose to speak for a given community and thats fine, but expecting them to do so just because they happen to share a certain characteristic with some group of people is absurd.

as for your example- its really not the same at all. people aren't asking you how you feel about something "as a gay person"- they are asking you to describe an experience that they never had ie coming to terms with an uncommon and sometimes unpopular sexual orientation. maybe if you asked someone- what was it like growing up black or how do you think being black affected you in xyz situation... but to me, what you're talking about sounds more like... watching the prop 8 results and asking "what do you think about it, as a gay person?" can you not see how the last bit is unncessary?

and pooka, theres definately some of it on both sides. my old tired example: a black guy was hitting on me on the bus, and when i told him i wasn't interested he called me a racist b*tch. does. not. follow. does that mean that blacks are more racist than whites? no.. but it does mean that that particular guy made the issue about race, even when race had nothing to do with it (i was already in a relationship at the time).

its hard to tell when something is racist and when something isn't. i think in general minorities tend to over-estimate how much racism is present and whites tend to under-estimate it (or become huge puddles of guilt like INH and begin to overestimate it :P) (no offense INH). but there are legitimate grievances on both sides.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lovelife
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8/18/2010 5:23:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 5:07:09 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 2:39:01 PM, theLwerd wrote:
To say "What do blacks think about X..." is silly in that one person cannot possibly represent an entire race. However, it's NOT silly to ask what something is life from a black perspective (or how a black person feels about something in particular).

asking how someone feels about something is different than asking them for the "black perspective" or even a black perspective. when you ask someone how they feel about something "as a black person" not only is it redundant (if they are black) but it makes their perspective into more than it is (a single person vs a representative of a community). some people choose to speak for a given community and thats fine, but expecting them to do so just because they happen to share a certain characteristic with some group of people is absurd.


Yeah thats what I was trying to say but with smarter wording.

as for your example- its really not the same at all. people aren't asking you how you feel about something "as a gay person"- they are asking you to describe an experience that they never had ie coming to terms with an uncommon and sometimes unpopular sexual orientation. maybe if you asked someone- what was it like growing up black or how do you think being black affected you in xyz situation... but to me, what you're talking about sounds more like... watching the prop 8 results and asking "what do you think about it, as a gay person?" can you not see how the last bit is unncessary?


It might help clarify the situation a little, but I see your point.

and pooka, theres definately some of it on both sides. my old tired example: a black guy was hitting on me on the bus, and when i told him i wasn't interested he called me a racist b*tch. does. not. follow. does that mean that blacks are more racist than whites? no.. but it does mean that that particular guy made the issue about race, even when race had nothing to do with it (i was already in a relationship at the time).


I hate when that happens.

its hard to tell when something is racist and when something isn't. i think in general minorities tend to over-estimate how much racism is present and whites tend to under-estimate it (or become huge puddles of guilt like INH and begin to overestimate it :P) (no offense INH). but there are legitimate grievances on both sides.

Lol yes.
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nonentity
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8/18/2010 11:29:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 2:26:39 PM, theLwerd wrote:

Of course I'm generalizing, but it seems that even asking about racism is too touchy of a subject. The black caller was complaining that her white husband's friends ask, "How do blacks feel about X or Y or Z..." Um, so? They're not being rude - probably just genuinely curious. But apparently it's racist and inappropriate to ask what something is like from a black perspective... give me a break. Talking about our differences and our experiences because of those differences are the only way to foster understanding.

I can't believe I'm siding with Dr. Laura. For once.

I pretty much agree with everything Popculturepooka said. Not all black people have equal experiences. Black people tend to be lumped into one category and that's what's offensive. I'm Nigerian--I do not identify with American black culture and I do not identify with Caribbean culture. They can't speak for me and I can't speak for them.

And sure, maybe they're genuinely "curious". How does that make it any less offensive?? I'm genuinely curious as to how anyone can be morbidly obese but I don't go around asking people why they're fat, for example.
mattrodstrom
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8/18/2010 11:33:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 11:29:33 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 8/18/2010 2:26:39 PM, theLwerd wrote:

Of course I'm generalizing, but it seems that even asking about racism is too touchy of a subject. The black caller was complaining that her white husband's friends ask, "How do blacks feel about X or Y or Z..." Um, so? They're not being rude - probably just genuinely curious. But apparently it's racist and inappropriate to ask what something is like from a black perspective... give me a break. Talking about our differences and our experiences because of those differences are the only way to foster understanding.

I can't believe I'm siding with Dr. Laura. For once.


I pretty much agree with everything Popculturepooka said. Not all black people have equal experiences. Black people tend to be lumped into one category and that's what's offensive. I'm Nigerian--I do not identify with American black culture and I do not identify with Caribbean culture. They can't speak for me and I can't speak for them.

And sure, maybe they're genuinely "curious". How does that make it any less offensive?? I'm genuinely curious as to how anyone can be morbidly obese but I don't go around asking people why they're fat, for example.

Is Nigeria a relatively well off country in Africa?

and are you from there originally?..

it seems to me like a lot of people who come to US (and I guess Canada too) from Africa come from Nigeria.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
nonentity
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8/18/2010 11:40:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 11:33:13 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

Is Nigeria a relatively well off country in Africa?

and are you from there originally?..

it seems to me like a lot of people who come to US (and I guess Canada too) from Africa come from Nigeria.

It's the most populated African country. I was born there but my family moved to Canada when I was less than 2. I think it's relatively well off... I know it's known for fraud lol but it's got oil.
mattrodstrom
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8/19/2010 12:08:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 11:40:24 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 8/18/2010 11:33:13 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

Is Nigeria a relatively well off country in Africa?

and are you from there originally?..

it seems to me like a lot of people who come to US (and I guess Canada too) from Africa come from Nigeria.


It's the most populated African country.
yeah... I guess I missed the obvious explanation.

I was born there but my family moved to Canada when I was less than 2. I think it's relatively well off... I know it's known for fraud lol but it's got oil.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Volkov
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8/19/2010 7:24:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
First off, I just want to say that I'm so glad that this boil was lanced from American radio. Now its slightly respectable again. Still waiting until Rush "Pill Popper" Limbaugh gets the boot as well.

In relation to Lwerd's post, I tend to agree with you on a lot of points, but as two white folks, can we be too sure we're looking at it the right way?

I don't know about you, but when something like this comes up, I generally tend to think, well we're a post-racial society and blah blah, why are they picking on us? And really, when you look at it through that kind of prism, where we're criticizing them for breaking the idea of the post-racial society and openness and etc., we're bound to think negatively and bring into it a certain sense of arrogance about how we're in the right, they're in the wrong, etc.

Somehow I don't think blacks see it this way. Most, especially the older generation, still remember the civil rights marches and continue to see, perhaps with some bias, grinding poverty for blacks while rich white Wall Street bankers collapse an economy or two.

It seems to me that its probably just that sort of fundamental breakdown of communication between two parties that really have the same goal in the end that causes most, if not all, of the problems we see when issues like this rear their ugly heads.
badger
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8/19/2010 12:58:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
ireland isn't all that mixed so i suppose my opinion isn't really worth sh1t on this one, but i think volkov spoke wise words there. it just seems to me like idiots are fvcking it up for us all.. and everyone just needs to stop using derogatory terms.
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Danielle
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8/19/2010 4:22:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 5:07:09 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/18/2010 2:39:01 PM, theLwerd wrote:
some people choose to speak for a given community and thats fine, but expecting them to do so just because they happen to share a certain characteristic with some group of people is absurd.

as for your example- its really not the same at all.

While both questions are not asking the same thing, they're both examples of ignorance. As you said, it's absurd to think 1 black person can represent an entire race. Similarly, it's absurd to ask someone "when they knew they were gay" because every gay person knows it's inherent just as heterosexuality is inherent to straight people. You're changing the context by saying this question is asking when someone came to terms with their sexuality. That might be what they MEAN, but without further clarification, it seems silly.

It seems like a dumb question with an obvious answer, but instead of freaking out about how the answer is obvious (or comes off sounding wrong or not PC), gay people just answer it anyway -- usually pointing out that our sexuality is just as inherent to us as it is to a straight person. My point was that people tend to be ignorant to things they do not understand or can't experience -- i.e. being a woman, being black, being gay, etc. Because of that, they ask a lot of stupid questions, or phrase things the wrong way... but black people seemingly deem any question about race as inherently racist, which was my gripe.

You can ask a black person, "Do black people really like fried chicken?" And they'll respond, "THAT'S RACIST!" They think it's racist because of the stereotype and because you're asking them to speak on behalf of all black people (which is dumb). However we all know lesbians use dildos, right? That's a stereotype too. People ask me, "So do you guys use a dildo?" all the time. Do I say ZOMG YOU THINK I USE THOSE THINGS JUST CUZ I'M A LESBIAN RARRARRAR? ... No, I don't. Nor do I say it's "incredibly offensive" that they're asking me to speak on behalf of lesbians. I don't say "You homophobe!" either. The question in its wording is stupid (because once again, obviously 1 person can only represent themselves) but it's not an *inherently racist* question or inherently homophobic question. It's just an ignorant question. Ignorance is not synonymous with intolerance.

maybe if you asked someone- what was it like growing up black or how do you think being black affected you in xyz situation... but to me, what you're talking about sounds more like... watching the prop 8 results and asking "what do you think about it, as a gay person?" can you not see how the last bit is unncessary?

I see how it's unnecessary - because my sexuality doesn't affirm or negate my opinion in any way. However it's stupid to pretend that this ruling will not affect or apply to gay people differently than straight people. 50% of California might be against gay marriage, but I'm sure the support for gay marriage is going to look significantly different (!!!) if you ask the gay community -- probably 99% of gays support gay marriage. And yes, the ruling on Prop 8 *will* affect a gay person differently because it means something totally different to me than say a straight person.

Of course passing gay marriage will be a triumph for ALL Americans because it's a civil rights issue, but I think it's foolish to pretend that my reaction or whatever won't be different as a gay person than for a straight person. The most pro gay marriage straight person will simply not have the same experiences as a gay person when gay marriage legislation passes. I would not be offended at all whatsoever in the slightest if someone asked me what my reaction was to the Prop 8 ruling as a gay person. A straight person could be upset about current laws on our behalf, but they can not actually know what it's like to be prohibited from something or specifically oppressed.
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Danielle
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8/19/2010 4:43:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 3:30:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
In my experience it's the other way around; some white people will just dismiss any complaint of racism as being "hyper-sensitive" or using the "race card" - that is unless, of course, they deem it properly racist enough for black people to legitimately complain about. I'm not sure how that adds to rational discussion.

It's true that white people accuse blacks of pulling the race card all the time... usually because they do. Consider Dr. Laura's question for example. "Why can black people use the N word but white people can't?" How on earth is that question offensive or racist in any way?! If every single time people ask a question about race, the response is "you're obviously racist" then people are going to become defensive and accuse others of always using the race card. The problem is that the race card is used (very often) in situations when it shouldn't be. It's like crying wolf, which is why white people usually dismiss these things. They wouldn't be so defensive if they weren't accused of being racist all the time for simple observations or questions they just don't understand.

You do realize there's a lot of black people who don't approve of anybody saying the word either, right?

Yeah, so? That's not the point. The point is that a lot use the word, and aren't considered racist or offensive, but a white person can't even say the word (we have to say "the N word" like we're children) without being presumed to be huge racists...

Here's the thing. I completely understand feverish's point that white people should simply be sensitive to the fact that the word carries with it a lot of negativity and has a lot of connotation... however, isn't that like saying "Well Muslims should be sensitive to the fact that Islamic extremists blew up the WTC and a mosque shouldn't be built here? Just out of RESPECT and CONSIDERATION for the loss that people suffered? And the fact that they wouldn't be comfortable with a mosque here?"

To me, the 2 arguments or debates seem similar. White people shouldn't use the N word because in the past, a lot of blacks suffered and they have negative reactions to the word... wtf? I'm almost positive feverish would be pro-mosque at Ground Zero and the argument there is that Muslims as a whole shouldn't be punished for what a group of extremists did. Well can't the same thing be said about white people? I didn't enslave anybody... my ancestors didn't enslave anybody (they were in Europe). I'm not racist. Yet my free speech is inhibited (or should be, to be considerate) simply because I don't have a lot of melanin in my skin? What gives? If you feel that way, I don't see how you (feverish or anyone else) can say that perhaps the Muslims shouldn't be more SENSITIVE to the touchy subject of 9/11 regarding the families who don't want the mosque built.

No. How is it a good point to deal with a woman's frustration by saying "Well, other black people say it too". Ok? That's nice. How about she address the issue? How about she explain to her why she shouldn't be offended that her husbands white friends think she is some type of conduit to "black think" just by virtue of being black.

I already said that because the caller was calling for advice, that her advice sucked and she was a sucky person to call for that kind of reaction. I was addressing her use of the N word and the questions she raised in particular. She did not handle the situation well at all and I never said she did.

What connotation does the N-word have to whites? What do whites think about the N-word, Lwerd? You should know. You're white.

WTF is that supposed to mean? I thought I made it abundantly clear that white people will never know what it's like to be black and thus can not experience "the N word" in the same way. So honestly you can go fvck yourself for trying to imply the complete opposite of what I said. I specifically said a white person cannot possibly understand the N word or have the same reaction as a black person... just as you dunno what it's like to be gay, or white, or a woman. What does the word faggot mean to you, PCP? What do you heteros think of the word? You should know. You're straight. I mean give me a break.

Uh, who attacked first? Because I think it was Dr. Laura who started getting aggressive first. With the "that's not offensive. I don't think that's offensive at all. You know what's offensive is *goes on long rant*" (paraphrased). And, again, I find it to be the opposite, usually. Some white people seem to get offended that black people still get offended by "racism" that white people (ironically) deem inconsequential.

Of course. She is a moron and she d!cked it by getting aggressive. She should have asked the caller why she was offended and explained from a "white perspective" why sometimes white people ask those dumb questions, and shown more consideration for the caller's predicament.

Please. That's not asking what something is like from a black perspective. That'd be "what do you, as a black person, think about X and how do your experiences inform what you think about X?" Not to mention saying something like that would avoid a lot of unneeded conflict.

Oh okay... So now you expect every single question to be politically correct so as to not offend the poor black people? PLEASE. Today my friend and I passed a couple making out in the grass; she turned to me and asked, "How do gay people feel about straight PDA?" Did I flip my sh!t about how that was a homophobic question and she should not be generalizing and tailor her question to be worded properly as "How do YOU feel about straight PDA?" No. Even if her question was wrong or not politically correct, I know she didn't mean to be offensive or homophobic in any way whatsoever. I know she was just asking a dumb question. I pointed out that I personally don't get bothered by it but obviously I couldn't speak for anyone else, gay or straight. As I said, it's the "Racist!" accusation that perpetuates these racial tensions of white people thinking blacks pull the race card all the time, and simultaneously whites being completely insensitive to the fact that racism truly is alive and well in our society.
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Danielle
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8/19/2010 4:48:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 4:50:12 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
That's Dr. Laura code for: The network fired me, but spared me total embarrassment by allowing me to say that I quit of my own volition.

Lol, they actually begged her to stay on. She's incredibly popular (still... this just added to her popularity actually).

That's been my experience too, but it's still an anecdote.

Of course.

Yes, she does. F*ck Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the rest of the Poverty Pimps who politicize race and pull the race card bullsh*t.

Disagree. She has every right to say what she wants (free speech), but that doesn't mean others don't have the right to be offended and use their free speech to address and attack what she said. She was a total @sshole to the caller and clearly has issues with race, or else she would have handled the situation differently. Regardless, while the situation as a whole wasn't in her favor whatsoever, I think she was still "straw manned" if you will, in a lot of ways.

I know what it's like to be called a "spic" or a "cracker" (depending upon who's insulting me), but I don't get hysterical over it. I value the freedom of speech just too much.

Yeah, but the thing is - she didn't call anyone a n!gger (that's what's annoying).

Well, hang on, there are tons of black folk who see validity in your position. Curiously, though, they're usually of a libertarian or conservative persuasion. Probably the greatest book I've ever read on race relations.

http://www.tsowell.com...

The author is black.

I'll check it out... I have a few books on race actually (one of them is about evolution and the evolutionary, inherent, biological differences between the races -- very interesting) and many texts from my Women's Studies classes (LOL) that all deal with race -- because in WS classes, the issues of race and class are extremely prevalent. We talked about race relations just as much as we did about women lol.
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Danielle
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8/19/2010 4:53:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Feverish -

You bring up good points. First, I don't think "black" should be an offensive term just as "white" is not an offensive term. Second, the issue of the word nigga in music is obviously something I can relate to considering I am a fan of hip-hop. I cannot tell you how many times I'm with my black friends, singing along to some song, and when the word "nigga" comes on I used to simply stop singing when around them... it's so awkward!!! I don't know why I have to stop singing though; I'm not calling anyone a nigga (or n!gger) and I'm simply singing along to the lyrics of the song. If blacks don't want white people to ever use the word, then I think including the lyric in a song but expecting white people to not sing along is racist in and of itself. I mean "If ya don't know, now ya know, NIGGA" is one of the greatest lines to sing ever lol yet when I'm around my black friends society tells me to be uncomfortable singing along. I think that's stupid. Again I don't mean anything offensive by singing along, so censoring myself makes me uncomfortable because I think it makes a non-threatening situation way more awkward than it has to be. Out of curiosity, PCP, how do you feel about the word in rap music or white people using it or singing it?
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/19/2010 8:43:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Lol, they actually begged her to stay on.:

I'm genuinely surprised.

Disagree. She has every right to say what she wants (free speech), but that doesn't mean others don't have the right to be offended and use their free speech to address and attack what she said.:

Oh, absolutely. I don't know what I said that contradicts that. I was railing against Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Yeah, but the thing is - she didn't call anyone a n!gger (that's what's annoying).:

I just heard the "Rant" for the first time and have to agree with your assessment. That was taken way too far.

(one of them is about evolution and the evolutionary, inherent, biological differences between the races -- very interesting):

Hmmm, not sure I believe that tongue-in-cheek, but I'm not opposed to giving it a fair verdict.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
popculturepooka
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8/19/2010 10:45:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/19/2010 4:43:45 PM, theLwerd wrote:

It's true that white people accuse blacks of pulling the race card all the time... usually because they do.

LOL, which is exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes, yes. I find to be far, far less than you're claiming it to be. Black people saying stuff about non-overt racism? Forget about it. It's all imagined racism where there is none i.e. pulling the race card. Which again goes back to the part where in discussion about racism black people have to wait on white approval ("okay, that really WAS racist") of the racist incident before we can actually discuss it. If it's not deemed racist by whites, no discussion and a hand waving dismissal.

Consider Dr. Laura's question for example. "Why can black people use the N word but white people can't?" How on earth is that question offensive or racist in any way?!

It isn't by itself.

If every single time people ask a question about race, the response is "you're obviously racist" then people are going to become defensive and accuse others of always using the race card.

Context of the situation is important. For example taking the call situation: the "Doctor" wasn't just asking that asking curious question - she was essentially accusing the caller of being a hypocrite even though she didn't even know the caller's position on the matter. You know, just assuming that whole "black think" thing.

The tone of discussion does wonders.

The problem is that the race card is used (very often) in situations when it shouldn't be. It's like crying wolf, which is why white people usually dismiss these things. They wouldn't be so defensive if they weren't accused of being racist all the time for simple observations or questions they just don't understand.

Which is exactly the point of contention about whether it shouldn't be used at the times you think it shouldn't be used.

And black people wouldn't be so defensive if they weren't so used to getting their complaints of racism brushed off because a white person didn't see any validity to the complaint.

Yeah, so? That's not the point. The point is that a lot use the word, and aren't considered racist or offensive, but a white person can't even say the word (we have to say "the N word" like we're children) without being presumed to be huge racists...

It's not considered racist or offensive by whom? Black people? Then my point stands. A lot of black people say it is just as racist and offensive when a black person says it.

So honestly you can go fvck yourself for trying to imply the complete opposite of what I said. I specifically said a white person cannot possibly understand the N word or have the same reaction as a black person...

Complete opposite? Hardly.

You originally said "The black caller was complaining that her white husband's friends ask, "How do blacks feel about X or Y or Z..." Um, so? They're not being rude - probably just genuinely curious. But apparently it's racist and inappropriate to ask what something is like from a black perspective... give me a break. "

I asked you a similar question about how whites feel about the N-word but then you seemed to have felt it was a rude question. Was it inappropriate as well? I was just genuinely curious.

What's the difference between the two situations? One of them you just derisively dismiss as not being offensive in the least.

But when I'm asking you what something is like from the white perspective with the exact same form of the question and exactly the same implication alluva sudden it's "go f**k yourself". Lol, okay, L. LOL.

just as you dunno what it's like to be gay, or white, or a woman. What does the word faggot mean to you, PCP? What do you heteros think of the word? You should know. You're straight. I mean give me a break.

Nope, I don't know what it's like to be any of those things which is exactly why I don't dismiss claims of discrimination against any of these groups so easily and out of hand. Because I'm fairly certain they are competent enough to interpret their own experiences. At the very least, I'll listen to complaints and consider them and then give reasons to why I don't think it's discrimination. I don't listen to women's complaints about (for example) men catcalling and jeering and following them around and just dismiss them on the basis that if there were women catcalling, jeering and following ME around I'd have no issue with that.
I don't do that because our situations are completely different. I don't do that because I'm a guy and I have no idea what it'd be like if the roles were reversed.
I don't see that kind of consideration too much in racial discussion.

Oh okay... So now you expect every single question to be politically correct so as to not offend the poor black people? PLEASE.

Way to derive an outlandish conclusion from me phrasing a question that would actually produce a good discussion and not implicitly assume that one member of a race somehow has a magical physic connection with rest of his/her race. Or in other words: does not follow.

You're confusing pc questions with rational discourse. There's a reason why in any semblance of rational discussion people won't tell a person they're arguing with that their stupid idiots or whatever EVEN IF THEY BELIEVE THAT. It shuts down conversation for one. They argue to show that the position their opponent holds is a stupid one.

That you have to take more care in what you say is critical to rational discussion does not equal being PC for no reason.

Today my friend and I passed a couple making out in the grass; she turned to me and asked, "How do gay people feel about straight PDA?" Did I flip my sh!t about how that was a homophobic question and she should not be generalizing and tailor her question to be worded properly as "How do YOU feel about straight PDA?" No. Even if her question was wrong or not politically correct, I know she didn't mean to be offensive or homophobic in any way whatsoever. I know she was just asking a dumb question. I pointed out that I personally don't get bothered by it but obviously I couldn't speak for anyone else, gay or straight.

Yeah, and I think they key difference is that she is your friend. You know she didn't mean it offensively. It's a little bit different when you have a stranger asking you the question all the while implying assuming you are hypocritical on the situation.

As I said, it's the "Racist!" accusation that perpetuates these racial tensions of white people thinking blacks pull the race card all the time, and simultaneously whites being completely insensitive to the fact that racism truly is alive and well in our society.

Somehow I doubt that.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
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8/20/2010 5:32:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/18/2010 3:30:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
What connotation does the N-word have to whites? What do whites think about the N-word, Lwerd? You should know. You're white.

me too!

generally... white people don't say "the N-Word" (at least not those NYers I hang out with)...

a lot of people think it's quite simply a degrading term... and they kind of pity Blacks who do use the term as being ignorant....

a lot of people get kind of defensive if the word is mentioned... and get tripped up on "Black's using the word" and saying that they're hippocrites AL SHARPTON! etc. (which Al sharpton is... but hey!).... These people, from what I can tell also don't use the word.... but they constantly point out that lots of blacks do.... a lot of times they'll say they "just don't understand it"

Then there's Unashamedly Racist white people (usually they're a stupid bunch) who have no shame in making broad generalizations, immedieately attributing them to Just How They Are and using such slurs. In New York at least This bunch is small.
They also tend to expect you to nod your head along with what they're saying... and when you try to tone'em down a touch... it gets awkward.

Then there's the Hippitty Hopster white people who use "nigga" even though they're a white kid from Westchester and are talking to other such kids.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Danielle
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8/20/2010 8:38:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/19/2010 10:45:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
If it's not deemed racist by whites, no discussion and a hand waving dismissal.

This is exactly where you're being hypocritical. You said (about blacks who cry racism), "Because I'm fairly certain they are competent enough to interpret their own experiences." In other words, if they say they've experienced racism, we should believe them because it's THEIR EXPERIENCE. However accusing a situation, question or comment of being racist implies that the do-er intended to be racist when that might not be the case at all... hence, my point. You're saying we should trust black people to define their experience, but often their interpretation of those experiences is far-fetched or completely off base. In other words, shouldn't we also trust white people to be competent enough to interpret their own experiences or intentions?!

It isn't offensive by itself [Dr. Laura's question].

It was considered offensive because she said the word n!gger instead of "the n word." God forbid.

Context of the situation is important. For example taking the call situation: the "Doctor" wasn't just asking that asking curious question - she was essentially accusing the caller of being a hypocrite even though she didn't even know the caller's position on the matter. You know, just assuming that whole "black think" thing.

First, she IS a doctor. She isn't a shrink (so I dunno why people treat her as such), but undermining her credentials is not accomplishing anything lol. She has her PhD. Second, where did she accuse the caller of being a hypocrite? If you can, copypasta a clip to the audio where she accuses the caller as such. I never heard that. Third, I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat that the way she handled the call as a whole was ALL wrong. Her reaction was entirely inappropriate but the controversy again surrounded her use of the N word - not the poor reaction she gave to the caller. She gets slammed for her retardation and idiotic stance day in and day out. The media attention that brought her to the forefront of discussion was about that one word (check out the CNN clips or Larry King interview if you don't believe me).

The tone of discussion does wonders.

That's genius. Why didn't I think of that...

Which is exactly the point of contention about whether it shouldn't be used at the times you think it shouldn't be used.

I'm not a huge advocate of censorship, so you'll have to elaborate.

And black people wouldn't be so defensive if they weren't so used to getting their complaints of racism brushed off because a white person didn't see any validity to the complaint.

Fair enough. But this goes back to the point that a discussion should be had without whites being called a racist in the process. I think a point should be explained before mistakenly interpreted as being racist. Consider belle's example.

It's not considered racist or offensive by whom? Black people? Then my point stands. A lot of black people say it is just as racist and offensive when a black person says it.

"A lot of black people" don't really matter. It still gets said constantly on HBO and by comics, rappers, etc. yet even though black people don't like it, THE RAPPERS DON'T WIND UP ON CNN OVER IT. Black people may condemn the use of the word, but they aren't up in arms creating a huge media circus and punishing those who use it... unless they're white.

Complete opposite [of what you said]? Hardly.

Lmao. Thank the lord for copypasta. I SAID - and I quote:

"The reality is that non-blacks will never know what it's like to be black - just as men don't know what it's like to be women, so the experience is different and that should be conveyed through mature discussion. The N word has a totally different connotation to Dr. Laura and whites then it does to blacks."

I asked you a similar question about how whites feel about the N-word but then you seemed to have felt it was a rude question. Was it inappropriate as well? I was just genuinely curious.

And what YOU said was:

"What connotation does the N-word have to whites? What do whites think about the N-word, Lwerd? You should know. You're white."

In other words, you're making the point that white people don't know what it's like to be called the N word, and you sarcastically implied that "I would know" what it's like because I'm white... which clearly ignored everything I said, considering I made that exact point yet for some reason you felt the need to echo it in a way that implied I did not just state that same exact thing.

But when I'm asking you what something is like from the white perspective with the exact same form of the question and exactly the same implication alluva sudden it's "go f**k yourself". Lol, okay, L. LOL.

LOL - the funny thing is you actually trying to pretend you weren't being a snot. Weren't you the one who said tone and context was everything? You clearly were being sarcastic and not asking me genuinely what I thought of the word as a white person -- either that or I misunderstood you. If you're being sincere, then "as a white person" I can say (and *gasp* NOT BE OFFENDED THAT YOU ASKED ME AS A WHITE PERSON) that the word to me is frankly annoying for all of the reasons and double standards I've mentioned. I also find it annoying that people make such a big deal about that derogatory word in particular but do not pay the same attention to other slurs. That said, it makes me uncomfortable when people of both races use it based on those reasons. I don't like that I feel the need to censor myself with that word and not with others. I don't like that skin color makes a group of consonants and vowels either permissible or not permissible to say. That's my perspective.

Nope, I don't know what it's like to be any of those things which is exactly why I don't dismiss claims of discrimination against any of these groups so easily and out of hand.

Haha really? Never?

You're confusing pc questions with rational discourse. There's a reason why in any semblance of rational discussion people won't tell a person they're arguing with that their stupid idiots or whatever EVEN IF THEY BELIEVE THAT. It shuts down conversation for one. They argue to show that the position their opponent holds is a stupid one.

Once again, you've got a huge double standard. You're saying that it's bad for white people to assume something isn't racist, but at the same time you think it's perfectly acceptable for whites to just accept being called a racist or accused of racism in situations where that couldn't be further from the truth. In belle's example, she was accused (stupidly) of being racist. I'm saying that if the black guy felt she was being racist (holy crap... she turned him down, so she must be racist lol wow talk about cocky) then he could have said, "Are you turning me down because I'm black?" instead of "RACIST!" It goes both ways. I'm more than willing to admit that white people often dismiss certain cases of racism, but I explained the reason (unjust accusations causing defensiveness and having to walk on egg shells causing defensiveness) which for some reason you can't seem to understand.

That you have to take more care in what you say is critical to rational discussion does not equal being PC for no reason.

Of course. But asking a general question like "What do black people think of this" is not the same as calling people stupid like in your conduct example! Hence the point! Calling someone who disagrees with you an idiot is no way to have a rational, philosophical discussion -- it's the first thing you learn in epistemology (how to talk and disagree with peers). But once again the frustration is that asking a general, improper question with NO INTENT FOR INSULT is equated to insulting and intolerant which you just demonstrated perfectly. Thanks.
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feverish
Posts: 2,716
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8/20/2010 10:49:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/19/2010 4:53:02 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Feverish -

You bring up good points. First, I don't think "black" should be an offensive term just as "white" is not an offensive term.

Nah, I don't think there can be many people in the world now who would actually find "black" explicitly offensive, and certainly in England, "coloured" just sounds weird.

However I do think there is some truth to the argument that the linguistic terms "black" and "white", because of their implicit connotations, can convey unconscious racial undertones of white superiority.

Black signifies darkness, evil, sin, soot etc. White represents light, goodness, purity, snow etc.

Second, the issue of the word nigga in music is obviously something I can relate to considering I am a fan of hip-hop. I cannot tell you how many times I'm with my black friends, singing along to some song, and when the word "nigga" comes on I used to simply stop singing when around them... it's so awkward!!! I don't know why I have to stop singing though; I'm not calling anyone a nigga (or n!gger) and I'm simply singing along to the lyrics of the song.

So if the people you're with were all white, would you just shout it out and not feel any awkwardness? I'm struggling to think of specific situations that I might have said or not said it and whether I felt awkward and I can't really think of any, so I guess it hasn't been a problem for me. I think what I'd be most likely to do if I was performing hip hop karaoke or just enthusiastically chatting along to a song I knew and it came up is make a direct point of omitting it, with a body freeze or mock horrified facial expression.

I guess I don't think that much about the ethnicity of the people I'm around, although I expect I probably do behave slightly differently unconsciously and I will notice something like being the only white person in a room. I think I would be just as uncomfortable singing/rapping/saying/shouting it whatever group of people I was with, but it would all depend on the context.

For instance, if there was an incident in my work with one student racially abusing another and I was telling a member of staff about it (of any race) I probably wouldn't repeat the language used verbatim, however if I was relaying the story to a friend or casual acquaintance (of any race), I'm sure I wouldn't have any qualms saying "he called him a p@ki" or "n!gger" or whatever.

I suppose I probably do sing or rap it sometimes without thinking about it, say if I'm listening to music in the car by myself or perhaps even with a very close friend or girlfriend (of whatever race), but editing one's own speech is something we all do all the time. Most users here probably speak very differently to their parents than they do to their friends, and although I swear a lot in general conversation, it's no big deal to not swear if I'm working with young kids or if I'm with my own daughter.

If blacks don't want white people to ever use the word, then I think including the lyric in a song but expecting white people to not sing along is racist in and of itself.

I don't really understand how that action coupled with that expectation would be racist. Also it is probably those black people who would not think of releasing such a song that are the one's who will be most offended.

I mean "If ya don't know, now ya know, NIGGA" is one of the greatest lines to sing ever lol yet when I'm around my black friends society tells me to be uncomfortable singing along. I think that's stupid. Again I don't mean anything offensive by singing along, so censoring myself makes me uncomfortable because I think it makes a non-threatening situation way more awkward than it has to be.

The artist who made the song, your black friends and society as a whole can't be held responsible for your awkward feelings. There's a reason the word makes you feel awkward, it's because of it's history as a hateful, venemous derogatory term. Words are more than just arrangements of vowels and consonants, they convey meaning.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/20/2010 6:39:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 10:49:43 AM, feverish wrote:
Black signifies darkness, evil, sin, soot etc. White represents light, goodness, purity, snow etc.

That's true... but could it possibly just be that white people are, well, "white" and black people are "black?" Unless people prefer we call ourselves peach and black people "brown." The term colored does sound weird and is dated (not to mention a lot of races and nationalities are considered "of color") so I think the whole black term as being negative because it's associated with darkness or evil or whatever just sort of needs to be abandoned if not already done so. The only real relevance I see is the Mormon perspective that black people are being punished because they're descendants of Cane or something lol...

So if the people you're with were all white, would you just shout it out and not feel any awkwardness?

Absolutely. Why would I not feel okay with singing along to the lyric just as all the other lyrics in the song? My friends would understand that I am not a racist, I have no racist intentions, and I am not calling anyone the N word or nigga directly so just singing along is completely harmless. If all the people around me are white then I don't see why any of them would be offended either.

I think what I'd be most likely to do if I was performing hip hop karaoke or just enthusiastically chatting along to a song I knew and it came up is make a direct point of omitting it, with a body freeze or mock horrified facial expression.

That's cool, but the point was not so much about having general respect and decency (cultural sensitivity) for black people so much as it was about the double standard in terms of being an issue or not being an issue. Like PCP said, many blacks are uncomfortable with the word and don't use it themselves or like when others use it. However there are hundreds of entertainers or millions of regular black people who say the word and nobody blinks an eye (black people might be annoyed, but it ends there)... yet when a WHITE person says a word, it's not just considered rude, but it makes headlines and is repeated on the news. I also don't like that the question alone was considered racist (even though Dr. Laura proved she was a complete fvcking idiot).

but editing one's own speech is something we all do all the time. Most users here probably speak very differently to their parents than they do to their friends, and although I swear a lot in general conversation, it's no big deal to not swear if I'm working with young kids or if I'm with my own daughter.

Of course. But we censor ourselves in context. You won't swear in front of your daughter because you consider it lewd or inappropriate, etc. But the ONLY reason we can *never* use the N word without saying "the N word" - or risk being called racist - is because of race alone.

The artist who made the song, your black friends and society as a whole can't be held responsible for your awkward feelings. There's a reason the word makes you feel awkward, it's because of it's history as a hateful, venemous derogatory term. Words are more than just arrangements of vowels and consonants, they convey meaning.

Of course they convey meaning. But while it's not the rapper's fault I may feel awkward, I think it's fvcked up to say they can say something in their song... and it's cool if white people buy their albums, and support them at shows, and buy their merch, but if they sing along to the wrong word then OH NO. It's great that you body freeze when the N word comes up in a song, but should it be an expectation? The word "faggot" has been historically offensive and used in a lot of hate crimes, hate speech, etc. yet black and white people alike don't think twice about singing the word in their songs or saying it in their everyday lives... yet no headlines are made.

Also, what about the phrase "That's so gay." Clearly it connotates gays with negativity much more blatant than you're "black"/dark/evil example and yet it doesn't make the news when people use this kind of derogatory context as well.
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lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/20/2010 7:17:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Idk I think the double standard is racist.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
belle
Posts: 4,113
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8/20/2010 7:19:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:17:00 PM, lovelife wrote:
Idk I think the double standard is racist.

what double standard?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...