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NATO Seeks to Expand

bsh1
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12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?
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Vox_Veritas
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12/3/2015 6:44:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro isn't close enough to Russia's borders for this to be considered a threat to Russia. On the other hand, we should probably get the *expletive* out of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.
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bsh1
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12/3/2015 7:09:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 6:44:38 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro isn't close enough to Russia's borders for this to be considered a threat to Russia. On the other hand, we should probably get the *expletive* out of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.

Russia won't ever directly attack a NATO nation. We are those only nations' guarantee of freedom, and that makes it obligatory for us to stay.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/3/2015 7:23:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 7:09:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 6:44:38 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro isn't close enough to Russia's borders for this to be considered a threat to Russia. On the other hand, we should probably get the *expletive* out of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.

Russia won't ever directly attack a NATO nation. We are those only nations' guarantee of freedom, and that makes it obligatory for us to stay.

However, near the end of the Soviet Union's existence NATO promised that it wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe. It is possible (if not probable) that Russia's actions in Ukraine and Georgia were done to prevent them from joining NATO. Relations will probably normalize if we halt our expansion into Eastern Europe and give the Russians "some space".
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bsh1
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12/3/2015 7:24:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 7:23:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:09:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 6:44:38 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro isn't close enough to Russia's borders for this to be considered a threat to Russia. On the other hand, we should probably get the *expletive* out of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.

Russia won't ever directly attack a NATO nation. We are those only nations' guarantee of freedom, and that makes it obligatory for us to stay.

However, near the end of the Soviet Union's existence NATO promised that it wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe. It is possible (if not probable) that Russia's actions in Ukraine and Georgia were done to prevent them from joining NATO. Relations will probably normalize if we halt our expansion into Eastern Europe and give the Russians "some space".

The reaction to Ukraine was not to stop it joining NATO, but to stop it joining the EU. Seriously, relations will not normalize if Russia has space. You give Russia space, they will expand their power to fill that space. NATO should not let Russia dictate whether it expands or not. Frankly, I think NATO should seek to expand aggressively.
Live Long and Prosper

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Vox_Veritas
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12/3/2015 7:32:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 7:24:56 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:23:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:09:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 6:44:38 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro isn't close enough to Russia's borders for this to be considered a threat to Russia. On the other hand, we should probably get the *expletive* out of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.

Russia won't ever directly attack a NATO nation. We are those only nations' guarantee of freedom, and that makes it obligatory for us to stay.

However, near the end of the Soviet Union's existence NATO promised that it wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe. It is possible (if not probable) that Russia's actions in Ukraine and Georgia were done to prevent them from joining NATO. Relations will probably normalize if we halt our expansion into Eastern Europe and give the Russians "some space".

The reaction to Ukraine was not to stop it joining NATO, but to stop it joining the EU. Seriously, relations will not normalize if Russia has space. You give Russia space, they will expand their power to fill that space. NATO should not let Russia dictate whether it expands or not. Frankly, I think NATO should seek to expand aggressively.

Your take on this seems a bit uncharacteristic of you...
Ultimately this issue boils down to whether we want to intrude upon the traditional Russian sphere of influence. This may have benefits for the countries in question and for NATO but it's bad for Russia and it makes the Russians feel increasingly threatened (Estonia borders Russia and stationing our forces in Estonia would mean stationing our forces just several hundred miles from Moscow). Further NATO expansion could quite possibly provoke a war with Russia so in any case we should proceed with caution.
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bsh1
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12/3/2015 7:54:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 7:32:21 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:24:56 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:23:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:09:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 6:44:38 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro isn't close enough to Russia's borders for this to be considered a threat to Russia. On the other hand, we should probably get the *expletive* out of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.

Russia won't ever directly attack a NATO nation. We are those only nations' guarantee of freedom, and that makes it obligatory for us to stay.

However, near the end of the Soviet Union's existence NATO promised that it wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe. It is possible (if not probable) that Russia's actions in Ukraine and Georgia were done to prevent them from joining NATO. Relations will probably normalize if we halt our expansion into Eastern Europe and give the Russians "some space".

The reaction to Ukraine was not to stop it joining NATO, but to stop it joining the EU. Seriously, relations will not normalize if Russia has space. You give Russia space, they will expand their power to fill that space. NATO should not let Russia dictate whether it expands or not. Frankly, I think NATO should seek to expand aggressively.

Your take on this seems a bit uncharacteristic of you...

That I support further NATO and EU integration?

Ultimately this issue boils down to whether we want to intrude upon the traditional Russian sphere of influence.

No. The issue is whether values such as liberal democracy and human rights matter more than Russia pseudo-democracy and intimidation.

This may have benefits for the countries in question and for NATO but it's bad for Russia and it makes the Russians feel increasingly threatened (Estonia borders Russia and stationing our forces in Estonia would mean stationing our forces just several hundred miles from Moscow). Further NATO expansion could quite possibly provoke a war with Russia so in any case we should proceed with caution.

Russia is, all things said, not dumb. It won't go to war with us because it knows that if it did it would lose and lose badly, or that it would provoke nuclear conflict, which is in no one's interest.
Live Long and Prosper

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Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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12/3/2015 10:40:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

There is a reason the Russian animal is a bear. Don't corner a bear or it will become aggressive regardless of the outcome. Other non-nato countries also become threatened by such actions. China, India, and the middle east view this as a form of imperialist expansion.

When the treaty is basically limited to nations of equivalent culture and status, nobody questions it too much (people expect you to be allies). When you start swallowing up smaller satellite nations it becomes provocation, expansionist and a threat.
Vox_Veritas
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12/4/2015 12:11:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:32:21 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:24:56 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:23:06 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 7:09:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 12/3/2015 6:44:38 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro isn't close enough to Russia's borders for this to be considered a threat to Russia. On the other hand, we should probably get the *expletive* out of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia.

Russia won't ever directly attack a NATO nation. We are those only nations' guarantee of freedom, and that makes it obligatory for us to stay.

However, near the end of the Soviet Union's existence NATO promised that it wouldn't expand into Eastern Europe. It is possible (if not probable) that Russia's actions in Ukraine and Georgia were done to prevent them from joining NATO. Relations will probably normalize if we halt our expansion into Eastern Europe and give the Russians "some space".

The reaction to Ukraine was not to stop it joining NATO, but to stop it joining the EU. Seriously, relations will not normalize if Russia has space. You give Russia space, they will expand their power to fill that space. NATO should not let Russia dictate whether it expands or not. Frankly, I think NATO should seek to expand aggressively.

Your take on this seems a bit uncharacteristic of you...

That I support further NATO and EU integration?

Ultimately this issue boils down to whether we want to intrude upon the traditional Russian sphere of influence.

No. The issue is whether values such as liberal democracy and human rights matter more than Russia pseudo-democracy and intimidation.

This may have benefits for the countries in question and for NATO but it's bad for Russia and it makes the Russians feel increasingly threatened (Estonia borders Russia and stationing our forces in Estonia would mean stationing our forces just several hundred miles from Moscow). Further NATO expansion could quite possibly provoke a war with Russia so in any case we should proceed with caution.

Russia is, all things said, not dumb. It won't go to war with us because it knows that if it did it would lose and lose badly, or that it would provoke nuclear conflict, which is in no one's interest.

So you're taking the more modernistic instead of postmodernistic approach. In the long run the modernisation of Eastern Europe would be a good thing. But in the short run...
Russia has a greater ability to win a war against NATO than one may think. Numerous reports have stated that the U.S. military has become subpar recently and the average Western European military is much worse even than that. Russia's got perhaps the most advanced anti-aircraft systems in the world, superior to those of the U.S. Their planes are generally cheaper and more reliable than ours (the PAK FA 5th generation fighter is projected to be much cheaper and yet slightly superior to the F-35).
Russia doesn't even have to beat NATO in a war; it just needs the will to hold off longer, seeing as how the people of the United States and Europe would demand peace if the war went on longer than a few months, especially as the NATO casualties began to pile up. We've become spoiled and we generally demand either a quick victory or an end to the conflict. Nuclear escalation is unlikely.
The objective of Russia wouldn't be to destroy or conquer NATO (seeing as how that'd basically be impossible) but rather to get NATO to relent and withdraw from Eastern Europe. I can envision them going to war if there's no other option for them to preserve their status of regional hegemon.

Basically much good will come from NATO integration and westernization of Eastern Europe. But to accomplish this a price will be have to be paid.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/4/2015 12:19:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Another thing about NATO is that, like nukes, its main value is in deterrence. Whenever an actual war between NATO and Russia starts, many Europeans leaders will, knowing that at least for the time being there's nothing to be gained from staying in NATO except to be caught up in a war between great powers, withdraw from NATO. It's better on paper than in an actual conflict.
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BlackFlags
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12/4/2015 12:25:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:19:57 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Another thing about NATO is that, like nukes, its main value is in deterrence. Whenever an actual war between NATO and Russia starts, many Europeans leaders will, knowing that at least for the time being there's nothing to be gained from staying in NATO except to be caught up in a war between great powers, withdraw from NATO. It's better on paper than in an actual conflict.

Indeed. Many nations have shifted closer to Russia too, like Hungary and Bulgaria.
BlackFlags
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12/4/2015 12:28:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Russia is, all things said, not dumb. It won't go to war with us because it knows that if it did it would lose and lose badly...,

There is no way you can claim NATO would have a clear victory with the size and advancement of the Russian Armed Forces and its allies.
Vox_Veritas
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12/4/2015 12:31:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:25:21 AM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 12/4/2015 12:19:57 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Another thing about NATO is that, like nukes, its main value is in deterrence. Whenever an actual war between NATO and Russia starts, many Europeans leaders will, knowing that at least for the time being there's nothing to be gained from staying in NATO except to be caught up in a war between great powers, withdraw from NATO. It's better on paper than in an actual conflict.

Indeed. Many nations have shifted closer to Russia too, like Hungary and Bulgaria.

Besides that, what about Spain? Why in the world would Spain want to remain a part of NATO when WWIII broke out?
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BlackFlags
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12/4/2015 12:32:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:31:39 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Besides that, what about Spain? Why in the world would Spain want to remain a part of NATO when WWIII broke out?
Spain would remain in NATO due to their ties and relations with other nations in the alliance.
Vox_Veritas
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12/4/2015 12:42:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:32:34 AM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 12/4/2015 12:31:39 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Besides that, what about Spain? Why in the world would Spain want to remain a part of NATO when WWIII broke out?
Spain would remain in NATO due to their ties and relations with other nations in the alliance.

Would Spain be willing to send thousands of its soldiers off to the battlefields of Eastern Europe to die just because of its "ties and relations" with its fellow members of the Alliance (relations which wouldn't necessarily be ruined by withdrawing from NATO)?
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1harderthanyouthink
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12/4/2015 12:44:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Don't believe the hype.

Russian-NATO War, weak US military - all ultimate bullsh!t.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/4/2015 12:47:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:44:10 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't believe the hype.

Russian-NATO War, weak US military - all ultimate bullsh!t.

I don't really want to be all sensationalist about this, but I think it's a real possibility and the probability of it happening will grow in the next year or two.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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1harderthanyouthink
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12/4/2015 12:48:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:47:21 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/4/2015 12:44:10 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't believe the hype.

Russian-NATO War, weak US military - all ultimate bullsh!t.

I don't really want to be all sensationalist about this, but I think it's a real possibility and the probability of it happening will grow in the next year or two.

1000% sensationalist.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
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12/4/2015 12:48:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Like, foreign relations TMZ.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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UtherPenguin
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12/4/2015 12:49:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Montenegro is an offensive name. We shouldn't let them join NATO until they change their name to "Monte-African American"
"Praise Allah."
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Vox_Veritas
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12/4/2015 12:51:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:48:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/4/2015 12:47:21 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/4/2015 12:44:10 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't believe the hype.

Russian-NATO War, weak US military - all ultimate bullsh!t.

I don't really want to be all sensationalist about this, but I think it's a real possibility and the probability of it happening will grow in the next year or two.

1000% sensationalist.

Dude, I'm literally contemplating writing a book about WWIII and why it'll probably happen.
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Greyparrot
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12/4/2015 1:03:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/4/2015 12:48:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/4/2015 12:47:21 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/4/2015 12:44:10 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't believe the hype.

Russian-NATO War, weak US military - all ultimate bullsh!t.

I don't really want to be all sensationalist about this, but I think it's a real possibility and the probability of it happening will grow in the next year or two.

1000% sensationalist.

Historically, it's the alliances that cause small wars to balloon out of control. Turkey needs to be booted out of NATO.
Blade-of-Truth
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12/5/2015 10:58:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/3/2015 11:42:22 AM, bsh1 wrote:
NATO has formally asked Montenegro to join the organization [http://news.yahoo.com...], much to Russia's chagrin, and in defiance of a Russian declaration that NATO expansion was a threat.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Russia vs. NATO 2016... I can already hear the war-drums beating. Putin has been thumping his chest way too much lately for comfort and it seems like the stuff with Turkey recently is sending him into overdrive. He's not helping the tensions at all by providing assistance to the Kurds and threatening to sink NATO ships entering the Black Sea.

Looking at the bases western forces have established all around the Russian region I'd be threatened too by a NATO expansion. Putin is smart enough to see the inevitable, be it 10 or 100 years from now. My only concern is that we are pushing him into a corner too fast, he might react too brashly.

All of it is silly, we're all supposedly aiming for the same target there - ISIS. Yet we don't want to team up because then we'd have to share the spoils afterwards.
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