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innomen
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3/14/2011 11:15:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've known a few people who have killed themselves, and now i know of one more.

The first was a guy i had known since elementary school, a good kid, and as average as you get. Good family, and seemingly very stable. He was about 19 years old and had just started working for our police force in Lexington MA. He was at a party and saw his girlfriend with another guy, and they had a fight. He then walked out to his car and shot himself in the head.

Then there was a guy i had known who struggled with drug addiction for years. He served time for it, and was trying to get his life back on track. He left a note that he couldn't handle sobriety nor could he handle using so he was going to take a dose that would kill him, and it did. He had a wife and a daughter.

A friend from the gym, who was friends with me and my mother. He had been having marital problems for a while, but was willing to do anything to save the marriage. This guy was a marine, and in all respects very strong. His wife told him that she didn't love him anymore and he hanged himself. He had a very young daughter. I miss Adam, he was a good guy.

Now i just got a call from my best friend from high school. He told me that a mutual friend had hanged himself over the weekend. He also told me that David had called him asking for $60K, and that some of his real estate investments weren't going well. My friend said no, without knowing how bad things might have been for him. I remember this guy asking me how i knew i was gay, that was about 15 years ago. Generally when someone asks me that, they are grappling with their own internal debate about their sexual orientation. He died alone estranged from his family.

There have been others, but these are the closest ones to me personally.

All male, 2 involving rejection of a woman, 1 substance abuse, and 1 money. Now i have had some pretty terrible periods in my life, so i understand despair and thinking that things cannot get better: as bad as it is now, it will always be this bad or worse. I have also never had a great fear of my own death. However, i cannot imagine killing myself over money or the rejection of another person. I can understand addiction driving you to the point of suicide though, and i can understand a crisis in sexual orientation driving you to suicide, and i am not sure what that says about me, but it's still difficult for me to understand the premature and self-inflicted loss of someone i know. I remember when i was in college, a kid tried to kill himself in a dorm i was in. He was unsuccessful but his reasons were related to his grades and his parent's disappointment.

I remember hearing once that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. In all the cases i listed, maybe save one, this is true.

Thoughts?
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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3/14/2011 11:23:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I had a good friend who killed himself. He was on some sort of medication, stopped taking it one week, and killed himself that Friday. He was pretty depressed I think over his parents divorce. He was 18 or 19 i think.
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innomen
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3/14/2011 11:26:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 11:23:54 AM, askbob wrote:
I had a good friend who killed himself. He was on some sort of medication, stopped taking it one week, and killed himself that Friday. He was pretty depressed I think over his parents divorce. He was 18 or 19 i think.

It's an unbelievable waste. I wish i had 10 minutes with them ahead of time. Not sure if it would make any difference, but it just seems like the ultimate of irrational decisions.
Rockylightning
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3/14/2011 11:37:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 11:36:56 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
A Junior at my highschool overdosed on Oxycotton and died. Does that count as suicide?

Unintentional suicide
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/14/2011 11:55:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've lost many people due to suicide; friends, family and patients. As an educator of suicide, I've learned how to separate myself from the incidents but it does grate on you. In 2010 alone, I lost two friends, one sister and thirteen patients to suicide. And another seven attempted suicide.

I've been called on scene by the police after suicides and have seen the aftermath up close. In December, I was called to the house of one of my patients at 7pm -- when I got there, the police called me into her bathroom. She had shot herself in the head while she was in the bathtub. It was one of the most gruesome scenes but I had to stand there and talk to the police for two hours inside of that bloody bathroom. She had been my patient for just under eight months.

You never get used to suicide. And it doesn't get "easy". But since I've come from lower areas of income where the chances of being shot, or shooting yourself, is higher -- I've come face-to-face with suicide more frequently than the norm. And after all this, I can say with certainty -- suicide is not the way to go. It isn't a solution, it's just an end.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
innomen
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3/14/2011 12:02:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 11:37:10 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 3/14/2011 11:36:56 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
A Junior at my highschool overdosed on Oxycotton and died. Does that count as suicide?

Unintentional suicide

Well, im really looking at the reasons behind the decision making process. Often you are locked up as mentally ill if you attempt suicide, or are suicidal. I don't agree that you are mentally ill, just making a rash decision.

I find it happens more to men, and the more poor you are the less likely you are to commit suicide, but that's total speculation.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/14/2011 12:06:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 11:55:02 AM, annhasle wrote:
I've lost many people due to suicide; friends, family and patients. As an educator of suicide, I've learned how to separate myself from the incidents but it does grate on you. In 2010 alone, I lost two friends, one sister and thirteen patients to suicide. And another seven attempted suicide.

I've been called on scene by the police after suicides and have seen the aftermath up close. In December, I was called to the house of one of my patients at 7pm -- when I got there, the police called me into her bathroom. She had shot herself in the head while she was in the bathtub. It was one of the most gruesome scenes but I had to stand there and talk to the police for two hours inside of that bloody bathroom. She had been my patient for just under eight months.

You never get used to suicide. And it doesn't get "easy". But since I've come from lower areas of income where the chances of being shot, or shooting yourself, is higher -- I've come face-to-face with suicide more frequently than the norm. And after all this, I can say with certainty -- suicide is not the way to go. It isn't a solution, it's just an end.

I would think that those experiences would take a toll on your psyche. I don't know of anyone in any line of work that has dealt with that much, particularly at your age. It's not a normal thing for anyone to have to deal with at that level, particularly someone as young as you.
david567
Posts: 19
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3/14/2011 12:15:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Suicide is not a solution, it just ends your life, I can understand people getting depressed, drug addiction and stuff like that but you could always make things better on the bright side.
Religious but not spiritual : )
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/14/2011 12:16:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 12:06:46 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/14/2011 11:55:02 AM, annhasle wrote:
I would think that those experiences would take a toll on your psyche. I don't know of anyone in any line of work that has dealt with that much, particularly at your age. It's not a normal thing for anyone to have to deal with at that level, particularly someone as young as you.

When I first started my job, I was 16. The reason they offered me a position was because of my first hand knowledge in dealing with people suffering from mental illness and my experiences with suicide. When I was first applying for a job, it wasn't as a counselor but instead as an intern for a psychiatrist there. However my (soon-to-be) boss heard me talking to her about therapy and was impressed. Sure, I'm pretty young but that has only helped my patients be more open with me. Some parents express concern at the beginning but they soon realize that many teenagers suffering from illness are embarrassed to tell adults about their problems, even mental health practitioners. I provide an alternative that they are comfortable with. :)
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/14/2011 12:59:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 12:16:58 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/14/2011 12:06:46 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/14/2011 11:55:02 AM, annhasle wrote:
I would think that those experiences would take a toll on your psyche. I don't know of anyone in any line of work that has dealt with that much, particularly at your age. It's not a normal thing for anyone to have to deal with at that level, particularly someone as young as you.

When I first started my job, I was 16. The reason they offered me a position was because of my first hand knowledge in dealing with people suffering from mental illness and my experiences with suicide. When I was first applying for a job, it wasn't as a counselor but instead as an intern for a psychiatrist there. However my (soon-to-be) boss heard me talking to her about therapy and was impressed. Sure, I'm pretty young but that has only helped my patients be more open with me. Some parents express concern at the beginning but they soon realize that many teenagers suffering from illness are embarrassed to tell adults about their problems, even mental health practitioners. I provide an alternative that they are comfortable with. :)

I was thinking more in terms of a personal toll to you. I don't doubt that your experience can benefit others, in this we share a similar side avocation, but i am thinking that there is no way around an impact on your psyche by having this amount of tragic exposure in your life, particularly during the years that most are assembling their identity.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/14/2011 5:40:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 12:59:58 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/14/2011 12:16:58 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/14/2011 12:06:46 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/14/2011 11:55:02 AM, annhasle wrote:
I would think that those experiences would take a toll on your psyche. I don't know of anyone in any line of work that has dealt with that much, particularly at your age. It's not a normal thing for anyone to have to deal with at that level, particularly someone as young as you.

When I first started my job, I was 16. The reason they offered me a position was because of my first hand knowledge in dealing with people suffering from mental illness and my experiences with suicide. When I was first applying for a job, it wasn't as a counselor but instead as an intern for a psychiatrist there. However my (soon-to-be) boss heard me talking to her about therapy and was impressed. Sure, I'm pretty young but that has only helped my patients be more open with me. Some parents express concern at the beginning but they soon realize that many teenagers suffering from illness are embarrassed to tell adults about their problems, even mental health practitioners. I provide an alternative that they are comfortable with. :)

I was thinking more in terms of a personal toll to you. I don't doubt that your experience can benefit others, in this we share a similar side avocation, but i am thinking that there is no way around an impact on your psyche by having this amount of tragic exposure in your life, particularly during the years that most are assembling their identity.

At first it was hard to get through the day and learning that people who have been open to you are no longer alive. But I've been able to step back and realize that I help them as long as they want to be helped. And sometimes.... they can't hold on. In some ways, it has helped me. It made it easier to accept my own mortality so when I was diagnosed with terminal illnesses, I was more... chill, I guess? Lol. :)
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,264
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3/14/2011 5:44:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The scary thing I have noticed from people I knew before they killed themselves, was how subtle the signs were. It can be really hard to predict.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/15/2011 3:41:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 5:40:42 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/14/2011 12:59:58 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/14/2011 12:16:58 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/14/2011 12:06:46 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/14/2011 11:55:02 AM, annhasle wrote:
I would think that those experiences would take a toll on your psyche. I don't know of anyone in any line of work that has dealt with that much, particularly at your age. It's not a normal thing for anyone to have to deal with at that level, particularly someone as young as you.

When I first started my job, I was 16. The reason they offered me a position was because of my first hand knowledge in dealing with people suffering from mental illness and my experiences with suicide. When I was first applying for a job, it wasn't as a counselor but instead as an intern for a psychiatrist there. However my (soon-to-be) boss heard me talking to her about therapy and was impressed. Sure, I'm pretty young but that has only helped my patients be more open with me. Some parents express concern at the beginning but they soon realize that many teenagers suffering from illness are embarrassed to tell adults about their problems, even mental health practitioners. I provide an alternative that they are comfortable with. :)

I was thinking more in terms of a personal toll to you. I don't doubt that your experience can benefit others, in this we share a similar side avocation, but i am thinking that there is no way around an impact on your psyche by having this amount of tragic exposure in your life, particularly during the years that most are assembling their identity.

At first it was hard to get through the day and learning that people who have been open to you are no longer alive. But I've been able to step back and realize that I help them as long as they want to be helped. And sometimes.... they can't hold on. In some ways, it has helped me. It made it easier to accept my own mortality so when I was diagnosed with terminal illnesses, I was more... chill, I guess? Lol. :)

Since i was pretty young i've lived through a lot of deaths. Family, friends, friends of family, coworkers etc. Going to wakes and funerals, lots of them, has made me far more accepting of my own mortality. However, suicide is different. The feeling of "if only..." sticks out in my mind, and a few moments in time radically change everything. I think that there is a pervasive feeling in most that the world will ultimately be either better off without me, or would barely notice my death. Both of these mindsets are flawed in that they are subjectively skewed, and are a particular snapshot in time. In all the people that i mentioned (with possibly the exception of the addict), each had the easy potential to rebuild their lives, and contribute to the world and thus bring greater internal value to themselves. Humility is a wonderful thing.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/15/2011 2:47:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I can't kill myself, I have a mother to look out for.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/15/2011 6:58:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 3:41:14 AM, innomen wrote:
Since i was pretty young i've lived through a lot of deaths. Family, friends, friends of family, coworkers etc. Going to wakes and funerals, lots of them, has made me far more accepting of my own mortality. However, suicide is different. The feeling of "if only..." sticks out in my mind, and a few moments in time radically change everything. I think that there is a pervasive feeling in most that the world will ultimately be either better off without me, or would barely notice my death. Both of these mindsets are flawed in that they are subjectively skewed, and are a particular snapshot in time. In all the people that i mentioned (with possibly the exception of the addict), each had the easy potential to rebuild their lives, and contribute to the world and thus bring greater internal value to themselves. Humility is a wonderful thing.

while all thats true, telling yourself "if only" really just amounts to a form of self flagellation. as ann said, you can only help someone if they want to be helped. and once they've reached the point where they want to kill themselves theres probably very little anyone could do to change that. even if you explain to someone that life can only get better or that there are people that care about them, they are likely to think you're either lying or you don't understand. its not really something you can be convinced of when you're in that state.

it is sad though. i always wonder how many, if any, have time to regret what they've done before they die.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/15/2011 7:13:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 6:58:43 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 3:41:14 AM, innomen wrote:
it is sad though. i always wonder how many, if any, have time to regret what they've done before they die.

Thats what worries me the most. My younger sister killed herself after her boyfriend broke up with her last year. And as she was dying from drinking bleach, she told me she regretted drinking it and that she wanted to live. It just makes you wonder about those last 15 or so minutes where they go over what they did in their heads... I always wonder how many would choose to do something different, y'know? :/
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/15/2011 8:13:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 7:13:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 6:58:43 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 3:41:14 AM, innomen wrote:
it is sad though. i always wonder how many, if any, have time to regret what they've done before they die.

Thats what worries me the most. My younger sister killed herself after her boyfriend broke up with her last year. And as she was dying from drinking bleach, she told me she regretted drinking it and that she wanted to live. It just makes you wonder about those last 15 or so minutes where they go over what they did in their heads... I always wonder how many would choose to do something different, y'know? :/

Wow, I'm sorry :(.

I'm going to sound a little bit of cold-blooded here, but it would seem that suicide is a form of group evolution. At the very least, a form of group evolution in prehistorical times. It's a well documented phenomena, so it can't just be a "chemical imbalance" and a "mental disorder" or else it wouldn't be so common. It would appear that if a "weaker" person killed themselves, the community would have more resources and be better off as a whole. Again, this analysis might not be applicable to modern times, since things are different now. However, its just why suicide exists.
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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/15/2011 8:37:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 8:13:45 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/15/2011 7:13:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 6:58:43 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 3:41:14 AM, innomen wrote:
Wow, I'm sorry :(.

Thanks. I'm glad I got to say goodbye though. ^_^

I'm going to sound a little bit of cold-blooded here, but it would seem that suicide is a form of group evolution. At the very least, a form of group evolution in prehistorical times. It's a well documented phenomena, so it can't just be a "chemical imbalance" and a "mental disorder" or else it wouldn't be so common. It would appear that if a "weaker" person killed themselves, the community would have more resources and be better off as a whole. Again, this analysis might not be applicable to modern times, since things are different now. However, its just why suicide exists.

Suicide is a cry for help but also attention -- but that also depends on how far along this person is in their own personal mental downward spiral.

In a way, you would be correct. Some people's thresholds for pain are lower which means they will succumb to emotional distress sooner. But thats entirely dependent on the amount of trauma they've had throughout their lives. I've known 15 ear old girls who were raped repeatedly for X amount of years who get through it and pull their lives together. But then a 27 year old woman was raped once and she took her life. That alone makes treatment for suicide hard -- there are so many mitigating factors: trauma, social life, religious affiliation, monetary situation, relationship status, abuse (both emotional and physical), family, friends, job atmosphere, etc. I'm always left thinking -- is this person simply weaker or have they been routinely abused to a point where letting go is easier?

Many will attempt suicide with the assumption they will live through it -- they think they'll be found in time, stopped or live by not taking a high enough dose or the noose breaks. These are the attempts for attention; the last cry for help. Although this tactic is usually the last ditch effort saved for those in emotionally distant households, its becoming increasingly popular for teenagers in Seattle. They think: It's easier to slash your wrists than have family therapy.

But I'm left assuming that most suicides are executed with the hopes it works. Are these people inherently weaker though? Like I said before, there are too many factors. You could have the highest threshold for trauma -- but if you're beaten down one too many times, than you can succumb to the same tactics as those weaker than you. I would never attempt to generalize all suicidal -- that benefits no one and simply adds to the stigma against those who take their own life. But I see suicide as a hope for change. Whenever I counsel those who have just attempted to commit suicide, they always answer the same -- "I couldn't live with X anymore". They need a way out... And some take a permanent leave.

Sure, we could boil it down to a chemical imbalance. And then label them with a mood disorder. But that doesn't help them until you learn what caused the imbalance -- and the majority of those afflicted will be suicidal based on environmental factors, not genetics (even though many will be predisposed to depression). You can only help those who want to be helped -- but before you can help them, they have to believe there's a way out and that change isn't impossible. Calling them weak just doesn't seem to fit. They're lost not weak.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/15/2011 8:46:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 8:13:45 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/15/2011 7:13:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 6:58:43 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 3:41:14 AM, innomen wrote:
it is sad though. i always wonder how many, if any, have time to regret what they've done before they die.

Thats what worries me the most. My younger sister killed herself after her boyfriend broke up with her last year. And as she was dying from drinking bleach, she told me she regretted drinking it and that she wanted to live. It just makes you wonder about those last 15 or so minutes where they go over what they did in their heads... I always wonder how many would choose to do something different, y'know? :/

Wow, I'm sorry :(.

I'm going to sound a little bit of cold-blooded here, but it would seem that suicide is a form of group evolution. At the very least, a form of group evolution in prehistorical times. It's a well documented phenomena, so it can't just be a "chemical imbalance" and a "mental disorder" or else it wouldn't be so common. It would appear that if a "weaker" person killed themselves, the community would have more resources and be better off as a whole. Again, this analysis might not be applicable to modern times, since things are different now. However, its just why suicide exists.

doubt it.

Not everything we are/do is directly related to survival of the 'fittest'

some are side-effects of such things.. so to speak...

like perhaps instead of how You described it... Suicide might arise due to people being conscious, and knowledgeable... And having complex social feelings...

These feelings.. and Consciousness.. May be normally pre-disposed.. Or Generally Helpful for beings so far as Genetic Survival is concerned... But, Sometimes also result in people trying to Stop the process if they feel bad.

If a quickly Falling, cycle of Depression truly is a pattern that is reinforced in our biology in order to make those who Begin to feel depressed... either Give up.. or off themselves.. Then Why hasn't ALL depression disappeared over these many millenia?? and why does it affect so many people?

It makes more sense to think that it's probably a side-effect of things which were evolved b/c they were generally "fit"-making aspects of people... and that, though those things might make people more "fit" generally... it can also lead to people giving up.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/15/2011 9:12:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 8:37:06 PM, annhasle wrote:


Suicide is a cry for help but also attention -- but that also depends on how far along this person is in their own personal mental downward spiral.


But thats entirely dependent on the amount of trauma they've had throughout their lives. I've known 15 ear old girls who were raped repeatedly for X amount of years who get through it and pull their lives together.

Nor should one kill themselves over rape. I'm not denying that rape is a bad thing, but suicide is all about self-esteem and if one believes he/she is dangerous for group survival. Getting raped does not mean that one is less valuable to society.

But then a 27 year old woman was raped once and she took her life.

I find it hard to believe that a women would kill herself just because of rape alone. there might have been other factors; such as low self-esteem, and a preexisting belief that she was not valuable to society. The rape might have reaffirmed her belief: that nobody would have sex with her for love, that people think very little of her, etc.

That alone makes treatment for suicide hard -- there are so many mitigating factors: trauma, social life, religious affiliation, monetary situation, relationship status, abuse (both emotional and physical), family, friends, job atmosphere, etc. I'm always left thinking -- is this person simply weaker or have they been routinely abused to a point where letting go is easier?

Well at least perception of weakness. If one is surrounded by others who are "stong", then one will have a sense of low self-esteem. Modern society makes this phenomena even more prevalent, cause unlike small groups, it is relatively easy to "be at the top", one can be very intelligent or strong, but feel weak because he/she is surrounded by others who are extraordinary gifted. For example, if one constantly debates someone like J.Kenyon, one might feel like a loser, even if he/she is a great debater.


Many will attempt suicide with the assumption they will live through it -- they think they'll be found in time, stopped or live by not taking a high enough dose or the noose breaks. These are the attempts for attention; the last cry for help. Although this tactic is usually the last ditch effort saved for those in emotionally distant households, its becoming increasingly popular for teenagers in Seattle. They think: It's easier to slash your wrists than have family therapy.


Makes sense. It's basic signaling.

I would never attempt to generalize all suicidal -- that benefits no one and simply adds to the stigma against those who take their own life.

It benefits my understanding of the world. I too live for logic and understanding :).

You can only help those who want to be helped -- but before you can help them, they have to believe there's a way out and that change isn't impossible. Calling them weak just doesn't seem to fit. They're lost not weak.

Either the person is weak or the person is an atmosphere that makes one feel weak. Some people are savable, others are not. Unless one uses drugs to correct this evolutionary behavior, it is inevitable if the person truly is weak.
Open borders debate:
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/15/2011 9:22:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 8:46:52 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/15/2011 8:13:45 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/15/2011 7:13:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 6:58:43 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 3:41:14 AM, innomen wrote:
it is sad though. i always wonder how many, if any, have time to regret what they've done before they die.

Thats what worries me the most. My younger sister killed herself after her boyfriend broke up with her last year. And as she was dying from drinking bleach, she told me she regretted drinking it and that she wanted to live. It just makes you wonder about those last 15 or so minutes where they go over what they did in their heads... I always wonder how many would choose to do something different, y'know? :/

Wow, I'm sorry :(.

I'm going to sound a little bit of cold-blooded here, but it would seem that suicide is a form of group evolution. At the very least, a form of group evolution in prehistorical times. It's a well documented phenomena, so it can't just be a "chemical imbalance" and a "mental disorder" or else it wouldn't be so common. It would appear that if a "weaker" person killed themselves, the community would have more resources and be better off as a whole. Again, this analysis might not be applicable to modern times, since things are different now. However, its just why suicide exists.


If a quickly Falling, cycle of Depression truly is a pattern that is reinforced in our biology in order to make those who Begin to feel depressed... either Give up.. or off themselves.. Then Why hasn't ALL depression disappeared over these many millenia?? and why does it affect so many people?


There are many theories for depression. Depression often cause people to lose motivation. Now this affect isn't necessarily bad. If one loses motivation, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. It causes the person to fail at a task that is too overwhelming and he/she would have put too many resources into that for only a limited benefit. By failing, this person can instead try something new that he/she might have more motivation to do and be happy with.

Depression can act as a signal to others for help. If the signal isn't responded to, the person will likely kill themselves knowing that nobody valued them, and it is true that he/she is no value to society. If the signal is responded to, then he/she has a likely chance of survival since he/she might realize that he/she has value.

Depression also cause people to truly analyze their situation. Some people realize that their depression is situational, and a change in environment is necessary. Some people try to change their lifestyles. Others decide their lives will always be miserable, and therefore decide to kill themselves.
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annhasle
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3/15/2011 9:30:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 9:12:31 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/15/2011 8:37:06 PM, annhasle wrote:
But thats entirely dependent on the amount of trauma they've had throughout their lives. I've known 15 ear old girls who were raped repeatedly for X amount of years who get through it and pull their lives together.

Nor should one kill themselves over rape. I'm not denying that rape is a bad thing, but suicide is all about self-esteem and if one believes he/she is dangerous for group survival. Getting raped does not mean that one is less valuable to society.

That is not true. Suicide is about being in the mental state where you feel as though you have no control over your own life. It's helplessness -- they see it as perpetual sadness.

But then a 27 year old woman was raped once and she took her life.

I find it hard to believe that a women would kill herself just because of rape alone. there might have been other factors; such as low self-esteem, and a preexisting belief that she was not valuable to society. The rape might have reaffirmed her belief: that nobody would have sex with her for love, that people think very little of her, etc.

Just think about it... Someone violates the victim and what happens? They have to live with the memory, they lose trust, they feel used, assume they were the reason why it happened, deal with periods of depression and anger, become paranoid, lose self-esteem, internalize all problems, exclude themselves from activities, etc. It gets to be too much and they take their own life. What if they're married? Those who are sometimes even rationalize it as betrayal and they are ashamed. But the most common reason why someone would commit suicide after rape is for religious reasons -- they think they are defiled and of no worth anymore. They have shamed their families and they want to end it. Rape leads to suicide a lot.

That alone makes treatment for suicide hard -- there are so many mitigating factors: trauma, social life, religious affiliation, monetary situation, relationship status, abuse (both emotional and physical), family, friends, job atmosphere, etc. I'm always left thinking -- is this person simply weaker or have they been routinely abused to a point where letting go is easier?

Well at least perception of weakness. If one is surrounded by others who are "stong", then one will have a sense of low self-esteem. Modern society makes this phenomena even more prevalent, cause unlike small groups, it is relatively easy to "be at the top", one can be very intelligent or strong, but feel weak because he/she is surrounded by others who are extraordinary gifted. For example, if one constantly debates someone like J.Kenyon, one might feel like a loser, even if he/she is a great debater.

This is definitely perpetuated by society -- those who are depressed are assumed to be weak. And how are they supposed to empower themselves when they feel like they are now the loser? The only way to truly help those in need is by making sure they realize that they aren't alone, weak and can help themselves. But claiming that those who commit suicide are furthering natural selection is kind of harsh, don't cha think?

Many will attempt suicide with the assumption they will live through it -- they think they'll be found in time, stopped or live by not taking a high enough dose or the noose breaks. These are the attempts for attention; the last cry for help. Although this tactic is usually the last ditch effort saved for those in emotionally distant households, its becoming increasingly popular for teenagers in Seattle. They think: It's easier to slash your wrists than have family therapy.

Makes sense. It's basic signaling.

Exactly.

I would never attempt to generalize all suicidal -- that benefits no one and simply adds to the stigma against those who take their own life.

It benefits my understanding of the world. I too live for logic and understanding :).

Haha, but generalizations won't lead to understanding suicide. It's a case-by-case basis with key elements that are the "norm".

You can only help those who want to be helped -- but before you can help them, they have to believe there's a way out and that change isn't impossible. Calling them weak just doesn't seem to fit. They're lost not weak.

Either the person is weak or the person is an atmosphere that makes one feel weak. Some people are savable, others are not. Unless one uses drugs to correct this evolutionary behavior, it is inevitable if the person truly is weak.

Like I said before, I won't categorize them as weak.
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darkkermit
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3/15/2011 9:56:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 9:30:11 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 9:12:31 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/15/2011 8:37:06 PM, annhasle wrote:
But thats entirely dependent on the amount of trauma they've had throughout their lives. I've known 15 ear old girls who were raped repeatedly for X amount of years who get through it and pull their lives together.

Nor should one kill themselves over rape. I'm not denying that rape is a bad thing, but suicide is all about self-esteem and if one believes he/she is dangerous for group survival. Getting raped does not mean that one is less valuable to society.

That is not true. Suicide is about being in the mental state where you feel as though you have no control over your own life. It's helplessness -- they see it as perpetual sadness.


How is rape not having control over your own life? It's only having no control over your life for a brief time.

Also, not having control over your life isn't a bad thing. If I am "stuck" with a job that i do not like, I can just learn to deal with it. As long as one can still achieve certain goals that are pre-coded for evolutionary reasons, there shouldn't be a problem. Of course, if one cannot escape social isolation, sexual frustration, or sense of productivity (a producer of resources, not just a consumer) then one might decide to self-terminate.

But then a 27 year old woman was raped once and she took her life.

I find it hard to believe that a women would kill herself just because of rape alone. there might have been other factors; such as low self-esteem, and a preexisting belief that she was not valuable to society. The rape might have reaffirmed her belief: that nobody would have sex with her for love, that people think very little of her, etc.

Just think about it... Someone violates the victim and what happens? They have to live with the memory, they lose trust, they feel used, assume they were the reason why it happened, deal with periods of depression and anger, become paranoid, lose self-esteem, internalize all problems, exclude themselves from activities, etc. It gets to be too much and they take their own life. What if they're married? Those who are sometimes even rationalize it as betrayal and they are ashamed. But the most common reason why someone would commit suicide after rape is for religious reasons -- they think they are defiled and of no worth anymore. They have shamed their families and they want to end it. Rape leads to suicide a lot.
Again, this is based on other factors besides the rape. If I feel that my life is in order, and I get raped (I can get butt raped by other guys) it wouldn't effect me especially if I had a strong social support group.

However, if my life wasn't in order, then I could use the rape as a confirmation of my failure in life. If people would not care about what happened, it would be further proof of my social isolation. Thus, my evolutionary programming would tell me to self-terminate.

Well at least perception of weakness. If one is surrounded by others who are "stong", then one will have a sense of low self-esteem. Modern society makes this phenomena even more prevalent, cause unlike small groups, it is relatively easy to "be at the top", one can be very intelligent or strong, but feel weak because he/she is surrounded by others who are extraordinary gifted. For example, if one constantly debates someone like J.Kenyon, one might feel like a loser, even if he/she is a great debater.

This is definitely perpetuated by society -- those who are depressed are assumed to be weak. And how are they supposed to empower themselves when they feel like they are now the loser? The only way to truly help those in need is by making sure they realize that they aren't alone, weak and can help themselves. But claiming that those who commit suicide are furthering natural selection is kind of harsh, don't cha think?

Then that begs the question, why did society perpetuate it? Perhaps the person could be in an unfortunately environment, but if society constantly reinforces the fact that the person is weak, perhaps it is true.

I didn't make any moral judgements, and as I said earlier, this theory is more predicated towards prehistorical society where natural resources were much more limited. But yes, I'm very cynical.

Many will attempt suicide with the assumption they will live through it -- they think they'll be found in time, stopped or live by not taking a high enough dose or the noose breaks. These are the attempts for attention; the last cry for help. Although this tactic is usually the last ditch effort saved for those in emotionally distant households, its becoming increasingly popular for teenagers in Seattle. They think: It's easier to slash your wrists than have family therapy.

Makes sense. It's basic signaling.

Exactly.

I would never attempt to generalize all suicidal -- that benefits no one and simply adds to the stigma against those who take their own life.

It benefits my understanding of the world. I too live for logic and understanding :).

Haha, but generalizations won't lead to understanding suicide. It's a case-by-case basis with key elements that are the "norm".

Human behavior either arises from mutation or evolutionary reasons.
A well documented phenomena is unlikely to be a random mutation
A random mutation that is harmful (ex: suicide) would likely be weeded out.
Therefore suicide must have some evolutionary benefit.
Suicide does not benefit the individual so it must help the survival of the group.
The only way suicide can be helpful to the group is if an individual is harmful to the group.
The only way an individual can be harmful to the group is if the person is an unproductive member, and consumes more the produced.
Those who are unproductive members of society are weak.

Where was my error in logic?


You can only help those who want to be helped -- but before you can help them, they have to believe there's a way out and that change isn't impossible. Calling them weak just doesn't seem to fit. They're lost not weak.

Either the person is weak or the person is an atmosphere that makes one feel weak. Some people are savable, others are not. Unless one uses drugs to correct this evolutionary behavior, it is inevitable if the person truly is weak.

Like I said before, I won't categorize them as weak.

See above
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annhasle
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3/15/2011 10:06:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 9:56:08 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/15/2011 9:30:11 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 9:12:31 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 3/15/2011 8:37:06 PM, annhasle wrote:
How is rape not having control over your own life? It's only having no control over your life for a brief time.

Did I say that they have no control over their lives? No. They feel like they have no control.

Also, not having control over your life isn't a bad thing. If I am "stuck" with a job that i do not like, I can just learn to deal with it. As long as one can still achieve certain goals that are pre-coded for evolutionary reasons, there shouldn't be a problem. Of course, if one cannot escape social isolation, sexual frustration, or sense of productivity (a producer of resources, not just a consumer) then one might decide to self-terminate.

Regardless of it being "bad" or "good" to you, it causes them to feel helpless due to a destroyed sense of self.

But then a 27 year old woman was raped once and she took her life.

I find it hard to believe that a women would kill herself just because of rape alone. there might have been other factors; such as low self-esteem, and a preexisting belief that she was not valuable to society. The rape might have reaffirmed her belief: that nobody would have sex with her for love, that people think very little of her, etc.

Just think about it... Someone violates the victim and what happens? They have to live with the memory, they lose trust, they feel used, assume they were the reason why it happened, deal with periods of depression and anger, become paranoid, lose self-esteem, internalize all problems, exclude themselves from activities, etc. It gets to be too much and they take their own life. What if they're married? Those who are sometimes even rationalize it as betrayal and they are ashamed. But the most common reason why someone would commit suicide after rape is for religious reasons -- they think they are defiled and of no worth anymore. They have shamed their families and they want to end it. Rape leads to suicide a lot.

Again, this is based on other factors besides the rape. If I feel that my life is in order, and I get raped (I can get butt raped by other guys) it wouldn't effect me especially if I had a strong social support group.

Okay, this might be a bit personal but... My mother was raped when I was 13. Now, she had a HUGE support base of family and friends but she tried killing herself. Why? Because that violation was something she felt that she could not live with for the rest of her life. And this was with her five children sitting at her side for two weeks straight.

However, if my life wasn't in order, then I could use the rape as a confirmation of my failure in life. If people would not care about what happened, it would be further proof of my social isolation. Thus, my evolutionary programming would tell me to self-terminate.

Rape destroys your sense of belonging, it creates a flawed perception of who you are now. What you had before it not important anymore.

Well at least perception of weakness. If one is surrounded by others who are "stong", then one will have a sense of low self-esteem. Modern society makes this phenomena even more prevalent, cause unlike small groups, it is relatively easy to "be at the top", one can be very intelligent or strong, but feel weak because he/she is surrounded by others who are extraordinary gifted. For example, if one constantly debates someone like J.Kenyon, one might feel like a loser, even if he/she is a great debater.

This is definitely perpetuated by society -- those who are depressed are assumed to be weak. And how are they supposed to empower themselves when they feel like they are now the loser? The only way to truly help those in need is by making sure they realize that they aren't alone, weak and can help themselves. But claiming that those who commit suicide are furthering natural selection is kind of harsh, don't cha think?

Then that begs the question, why did society perpetuate it? Perhaps the person could be in an unfortunately environment, but if society constantly reinforces the fact that the person is weak, perhaps it is true.

They perpetuated it because suicide is "wrong".

You know my thoughts on that...

I didn't make any moral judgements, and as I said earlier, this theory is more predicated towards prehistorical society where natural resources were much more limited. But yes, I'm very cynical.

Cynical? Sure. Misunderstanding the usual basis for suicide as well? I think so.

I would never attempt to generalize all suicidal -- that benefits no one and simply adds to the stigma against those who take their own life.

It benefits my understanding of the world. I too live for logic and understanding :).

Haha, but generalizations won't lead to understanding suicide. It's a case-by-case basis with key elements that are the "norm".

Human behavior either arises from mutation or evolutionary reasons.
A well documented phenomena is unlikely to be a random mutation
A random mutation that is harmful (ex: suicide) would likely be weeded out.
Therefore suicide must have some evolutionary benefit.
Suicide does not benefit the individual so it must help the survival of the group.
The only way suicide can be helpful to the group is if an individual is harmful to the group.
The only way an individual can be harmful to the group is if the person is an unproductive member, and consumes more the produced.
Those who are unproductive members of society are weak.

Where was my error in logic?

The bolded part. If suicide could be weeded out, wouldn't it have been gone by now?

You can only help those who want to be helped -- but before you can help them, they have to believe there's a way out and that change isn't impossible. Calling them weak just doesn't seem to fit. They're lost not weak.

Either the person is weak or the person is an atmosphere that makes one feel weak. Some people are savable, others are not. Unless one uses drugs to correct this evolutionary behavior, it is inevitable if the person truly is weak.

Like I said before, I won't categorize them as weak.

See above

See bolded. :P
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darkkermit
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3/15/2011 10:08:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago

Human behavior either arises from mutation or evolutionary reasons.
A well documented phenomena is unlikely to be a random mutation
A random mutation that is harmful (ex: suicide) would likely be weeded out.
Therefore suicide must have some evolutionary benefit.
Suicide does not benefit the individual so it must help the survival of the group.
The only way suicide can be helpful to the group is if an individual is harmful to the group.
The only way an individual can be harmful to the group is if the person is an unproductive member, and consumes more the produced.
Those who are unproductive members of society are weak.

Where was my error in logic?


I don't necessarily like the conclusion either. But I find it necessarily correct.

Of course, modern society is very different from prehistoric time, so certain "signals" may or may not be correct. Social isolation, lack of self worth (low self-esteem), and sexual frustration seem to be the three big ones that would signal that he/she is harmful to the group and therefore should self-terminate.
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annhasle
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3/15/2011 10:11:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 10:08:59 PM, darkkermit wrote:

Human behavior either arises from mutation or evolutionary reasons.
A well documented phenomena is unlikely to be a random mutation
A random mutation that is harmful (ex: suicide) would likely be weeded out.
Therefore suicide must have some evolutionary benefit.
Suicide does not benefit the individual so it must help the survival of the group.
The only way suicide can be helpful to the group is if an individual is harmful to the group.
The only way an individual can be harmful to the group is if the person is an unproductive member, and consumes more the produced.
Those who are unproductive members of society are weak.

Where was my error in logic?


I don't necessarily like the conclusion either. But I find it necessarily correct.

Suicide is caused by relations with others and a perceived sense of self. How can that be "weeded out"?

Of course, modern society is very different from prehistoric time, so certain "signals" may or may not be correct. Social isolation, lack of self worth (low self-esteem), and sexual frustration seem to be the three big ones that would signal that he/she is harmful to the group and therefore should self-terminate.

So... everyone who isolates themselves, has low self-esteem and is sexually frustrated should commit suicide for society? Well, I have low self esteem and prefer being by myself... Guess I have to kill myself. :P
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
darkkermit
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3/15/2011 10:12:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 10:06:33 PM, annhasle wrote:

Human behavior either arises from mutation or evolutionary reasons.
A well documented phenomena is unlikely to be a random mutation
A random mutation that is harmful (ex: suicide) would likely be weeded out.
Therefore suicide must have some evolutionary benefit.
Suicide does not benefit the individual so it must help the survival of the group.
The only way suicide can be helpful to the group is if an individual is harmful to the group.
The only way an individual can be harmful to the group is if the person is an unproductive member, and consumes more the produced.
Those who are unproductive members of society are weak.

Where was my error in logic?

The bolded part. If suicide could be weeded out, wouldn't it have been gone by now?

That's the point. Why isn't it? Suicide is harmful to the individual, but benefits the group. There is such a thing as group and kin evolution you know :p.
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