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Gay a choice?

ravynkelley
Posts: 67
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11/17/2011 12:40:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ok so like we were having this discussion where thius guy had said you are born gay. And i was like no being gay is an option. And that u can pick whether you like the same sex or if you dont. So we have never settled this. So Please Anybody Everybody wat is you opinion on this?????
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/17/2011 12:48:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well let me put it like this, if you are choosing to be straight, you aren't really as straight as you claim.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/17/2011 12:55:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 12:48:14 PM, lovelife wrote:
Well let me put it like this, if you are choosing to be straight, you aren't really as straight as you claim.

This.

A gay person can be straight, by suppressing their sexuality and vice versa.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/17/2011 1:17:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 12:40:49 PM, ravynkelley wrote:
Ok so like we were having this discussion where thius guy had said you are born gay. And i was like no being gay is an option. And that u can pick whether you like the same sex or if you dont. So we have never settled this. So Please Anybody Everybody wat is you opinion on this?????

If you believe this to be true, then you can, at this very moment, choose to be gay, flip over to gay porn, and become sexually arrosed by it, then at any minute, choose to become straight again, and suddenly become un-arrosed by it (and go back and forth).

I've tried. No matter what I do, gay porn doesn't arrose me.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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11/17/2011 1:29:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 1:17:54 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/17/2011 12:40:49 PM, ravynkelley wrote:
Ok so like we were having this discussion where thius guy had said you are born gay. And i was like no being gay is an option. And that u can pick whether you like the same sex or if you dont. So we have never settled this. So Please Anybody Everybody wat is you opinion on this?????

If you believe this to be true, then you can, at this very moment, choose to be gay, flip over to gay porn, and become sexually arrosed by it, then at any minute, choose to become straight again, and suddenly become un-arrosed by it (and go back and forth).

I've tried. No matter what I do, gay porn doesn't arrose me.

This.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/17/2011 1:34:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 12:40:49 PM, ravynkelley wrote:
Ok so like we were having this discussion where thius guy had said you are born gay. And i was like no being gay is an option. And that u can pick whether you like the same sex or if you dont. So we have never settled this. So Please Anybody Everybody wat is you opinion on this?????

It's not a matter of opinion. You can't choose your sexuality. That's a fact.

What, do you think that homosexuals think they have to too good, that they want to be a persecuted minority the world over and throughout history?

Homosexuality was considered a disease until recently and, as you go back through history, homosexuals have been oppressed horrifically.

Do you imagine that, if they could choose their sexuality, they would choose to be homosexual? Seriously? Just THINK about this for a second. A squad of Nazi storm troopers comes up to your door under the notion that you're homosexual. If it's a choice, do you continue to choose to be homosexual, or do you just flip your wrist and go with them to the gas chamber?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 1:42:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Given there are people with a BBW fetish, or, for all intents and purposes, a "fat fetish," how about we give them a cultural designation complete with a name that can be used in a derogatory fashion, and once established, lets argue this concept ad infinitum to determine whether these people are driven by some unnamed, though immutable compulsion to love large people in a world that loveS skinny people?

I mean, clearly, these people are unnatural. I mean, who likes fat people? It's so weird... ewww, I'll bet they even want to marry fat people... ewwwwwwwwwww, wtffff, who wants to marry fat people... God, it'd just ruin everything, we'd just have fat people all over the place. And, speaking of God, didn't He say that gluttony is a sin?

AMG, fat people are the DEVIL!

Dude, we need to ban fat marriage. NO FAT MARRIAGE!!!! D:<
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/17/2011 1:45:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 1:42:13 PM, Ren wrote:
Given there are people with a BBW fetish, or, for all intents and purposes, a "fat fetish," how about we give them a cultural designation complete with a name that can be used in a derogatory fashion, and once established, lets argue this concept ad infinitum to determine whether these people are driven by some unnamed, though immutable compulsion to love large people in a world that loveS skinny people?

I mean, clearly, these people are unnatural. I mean, who likes fat people? It's so weird... ewww, I'll bet they even want to marry fat people... ewwwwwwwwwww, wtffff, who wants to marry fat people... God, it'd just ruin everything, we'd just have fat people all over the place. And, speaking of God, didn't He say that gluttony is a sin?

AMG, fat people are the DEVIL!

Dude, we need to ban fat marriage. NO FAT MARRIAGE!!!! D:<

The sad thing is that the same people who oppose homosexuality would probably call this out as discrimination.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 1:47:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 1:45:25 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/17/2011 1:42:13 PM, Ren wrote:
Given there are people with a BBW fetish, or, for all intents and purposes, a "fat fetish," how about we give them a cultural designation complete with a name that can be used in a derogatory fashion, and once established, lets argue this concept ad infinitum to determine whether these people are driven by some unnamed, though immutable compulsion to love large people in a world that loveS skinny people?

I mean, clearly, these people are unnatural. I mean, who likes fat people? It's so weird... ewww, I'll bet they even want to marry fat people... ewwwwwwwwwww, wtffff, who wants to marry fat people... God, it'd just ruin everything, we'd just have fat people all over the place. And, speaking of God, didn't He say that gluttony is a sin?

AMG, fat people are the DEVIL!

Dude, we need to ban fat marriage. NO FAT MARRIAGE!!!! D:<

The sad thing is that the same people who oppose homosexuality would probably call this out as discrimination.

Only an anti-Christian, sociopathic leftist zealot would call that discrimination. ):<
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/17/2011 1:48:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 1:42:13 PM, Ren wrote:
Given there are people with a BBW fetish, or, for all intents and purposes, a "fat fetish," how about we give them a cultural designation complete with a name that can be used in a derogatory fashion, and once established, lets argue this concept ad infinitum to determine whether these people are driven by some unnamed, though immutable compulsion to love large people in a world that loveS skinny people?

I mean, clearly, these people are unnatural. I mean, who likes fat people? It's so weird... ewww, I'll bet they even want to marry fat people... ewwwwwwwwwww, wtffff, who wants to marry fat people... God, it'd just ruin everything, we'd just have fat people all over the place. And, speaking of God, didn't He say that gluttony is a sin?

AMG, fat people are the DEVIL!

Dude, we need to ban fat marriage. NO FAT MARRIAGE!!!! D:<

omg lmfao! I wish I could sig all of that....
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/17/2011 1:50:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 1:47:44 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 1:45:25 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/17/2011 1:42:13 PM, Ren wrote:
Given there are people with a BBW fetish, or, for all intents and purposes, a "fat fetish," how about we give them a cultural designation complete with a name that can be used in a derogatory fashion, and once established, lets argue this concept ad infinitum to determine whether these people are driven by some unnamed, though immutable compulsion to love large people in a world that loveS skinny people?

I mean, clearly, these people are unnatural. I mean, who likes fat people? It's so weird... ewww, I'll bet they even want to marry fat people... ewwwwwwwwwww, wtffff, who wants to marry fat people... God, it'd just ruin everything, we'd just have fat people all over the place. And, speaking of God, didn't He say that gluttony is a sin?

AMG, fat people are the DEVIL!

Dude, we need to ban fat marriage. NO FAT MARRIAGE!!!! D:<

The sad thing is that the same people who oppose homosexuality would probably call this out as discrimination.

Only an anti-Christian, sociopathic leftist zealot would call that discrimination. ):<

You forgot communist. Freedom hating. And of course you need to specify liberal, because leftist just isn't enough.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
inferno
Posts: 10,565
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11/17/2011 2:29:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 12:40:49 PM, ravynkelley wrote:
Ok so like we were having this discussion where thius guy had said you are born gay. And i was like no being gay is an option. And that u can pick whether you like the same sex or if you dont. So we have never settled this. So Please Anybody Everybody wat is you opinion on this?????

Are you gay ?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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11/17/2011 3:04:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Gay's get made fun of, bullied and discriminated against all the time, such so that they are brought to the brink of suicide sometimes. Why would you chose to be that?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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11/17/2011 3:07:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 2:36:29 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Let's say there was a society that was predominantly homosexual and persecuted heterosexual individuals [and also let us assume they have cloning devices which take the genes from any two individuals irregardless of sex, combine them, and add minor mutations to the clones]. One could expect some hetero's to say they are homo's and if the society were to progress and eventually become less biased against heterosexuals [but the bias remains but on a level that the hetero's suffer through less than they would prior] we could expect to see some people being called ex-heterosexuals because they admitted to being straight [believing that since society had become more accepting their friends and family would understand] but after receiving tons of flack by gays/lesbians [making up the hetero's friends and family] who believe that being heterosexual is not something that you are born with but a choice so they say that they have become homosexual in order to stop dealing with the flack [or they actually begin to believe that mess but its only delusion, for he shall always look at busty women and shall never dress stylishly], and hence ex-heterosexual.

[Sorry if this post was sort of confusing but you should get the gist of it]

A-Hem!
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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11/17/2011 3:22:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Really? You think those people choose to be abused and harassed? That is pretty much what happens when a person is openly gay.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 3:26:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:22:56 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Really? You think those people choose to be abused and harassed? That is pretty much what happens when a person is openly gay.

When I was in high school, kids who played "Magic Cards" were sometimes abused and harassed. So were kids who dressed a certain way, spoke a certain way, and even thought a certain way.

Hell, people have talked shtt to me on this very website for my views, which I chose to share with them.

People receive mistreatment for their decisions all the time, and thank God so many of them are strong enough to remain true to their real feelings.

Of course, there are also those that aren't, inasmuch as there are closet homosexuals.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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11/17/2011 3:27:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:07:55 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 11/17/2011 2:36:29 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Let's say there was a society that was predominantly homosexual and persecuted heterosexual individuals [and also let us assume they have cloning devices which take the genes from any two individuals irregardless of sex, combine them, and add minor mutations to the clones]. One could expect some hetero's to say they are homo's and if the society were to progress and eventually become less biased against heterosexuals [but the bias remains but on a level that the hetero's suffer through less than they would prior] we could expect to see some people being called ex-heterosexuals because they admitted to being straight [believing that since society had become more accepting their friends and family would understand] but after receiving tons of flack by gays/lesbians [making up the hetero's friends and family] who believe that being heterosexual is not something that you are born with but a choice so they say that they have become homosexual in order to stop dealing with the flack [or they actually begin to believe that mess but its only delusion, for he shall always look at busty women and shall never dress stylishly], and hence ex-heterosexual.

[Sorry if this post was sort of confusing but you should get the gist of it]

A-Hem!

Ya'll saw saw what I did there? [note this is an argument for people being born homo/hetero/bi-sexual by twisting the argument used by zealots against themselves by simply changing societal controls].
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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11/17/2011 3:30:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Certainly to engage in homosexuality is a choice. If the feeling of homosexuality truly is a choice then perhaps you're not entirely straight (i.e. you have the potential to enjoy homosexual acts.) If you think sexuality is a "choice" I'd be inclined to label you as bisexual.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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11/17/2011 3:35:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:22:56 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Really? You think those people choose to be abused and harassed? That is pretty much what happens when a person is openly gay.

1. I cringe whenever I see the, "It leads to some negative consequences therefore it couldn't possible be a choice." argument. That being said, I think it's probably not entirely a choice, I don't know.

2. I don't know about where you're from, but around here like every girl sucks up to the gay guy (See: "f_g hags") and most of the guys, at least in public environments seem to be uber tolerant so they can be progressive and whatnot. It simply isn't considered cool to bully the gay person, at least in my age group. That being said, I'm not denying that gay kids get bullied. I'm just wondering if it's as bad as people are saying. Don't take offense to that, I admit that I don't have statistics or anything.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 3:39:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:30:40 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Certainly to engage in homosexuality is a choice. If the feeling of homosexuality truly is a choice then perhaps you're not entirely straight (i.e. you have the potential to enjoy homosexual acts.) If you think sexuality is a "choice" I'd be inclined to label you as bisexual.

I understand the problem with it being understood as a choice -- it often leads to the question of whether the decision is "right."

However, I consider preferences amoral. That is to say, how could there be morality in a preference? Morality is based on what is right, what is right is based on fact or truth; it is true that you hold those preferences, making them morally sound in regards to simply entertaining that preference.

On the other hand, any argument you can make to rationalize homosexuality as intrinsic, you can make for any preference, from how you dress to the movies you watch. Nonetheless, these are still decisions, or choices, despite that they're not likely to change.

You were half right, though, and for that, impressively intuitive. I do believe that sexual categorizations are far too rigid to really reflect reality. I explained in another post that in action, the lines that distinguish sexual categorizations are likely quite blurry, and I believe that most people's experiences bleed into all sorts of categorizations without altogether marrying those people to them.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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11/17/2011 3:56:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:39:50 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:30:40 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Certainly to engage in homosexuality is a choice. If the feeling of homosexuality truly is a choice then perhaps you're not entirely straight (i.e. you have the potential to enjoy homosexual acts.) If you think sexuality is a "choice" I'd be inclined to label you as bisexual.

I understand the problem with it being understood as a choice -- it often leads to the question of whether the decision is "right."

However, I consider preferences amoral. That is to say, how could there be morality in a preference? Morality is based on what is right, what is right is based on fact or truth; it is true that you hold those preferences, making them morally sound in regards to simply entertaining that preference.

On the other hand, any argument you can make to rationalize homosexuality as intrinsic, you can make for any preference, from how you dress to the movies you watch. Nonetheless, these are still decisions, or choices, despite that they're not likely to change.

You were half right, though, and for that, impressively intuitive. I do believe that sexual categorizations are far too rigid to really reflect reality. I explained in another post that in action, the lines that distinguish sexual categorizations are likely quite blurry, and I believe that most people's experiences bleed into all sorts of categorizations without altogether marrying those people to them.

Even if homosexuality is a choice (though I personally don't believe in free will but ignoring that) I wouldn't view it as wrong. One's sexual preference is a potential form of great happiness and should be condoned insofar as doesn't infringe on others rights.

This is getting a little semantical; in some sense you could argue that if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do X you have a choice between X and a bullet in the head. We just don't generally consider this a "choice" even under the assumption of free will. In a very broad, and my opinion naive view I understand the distinction.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 4:00:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:56:50 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:39:50 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:30:40 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Certainly to engage in homosexuality is a choice. If the feeling of homosexuality truly is a choice then perhaps you're not entirely straight (i.e. you have the potential to enjoy homosexual acts.) If you think sexuality is a "choice" I'd be inclined to label you as bisexual.

I understand the problem with it being understood as a choice -- it often leads to the question of whether the decision is "right."

However, I consider preferences amoral. That is to say, how could there be morality in a preference? Morality is based on what is right, what is right is based on fact or truth; it is true that you hold those preferences, making them morally sound in regards to simply entertaining that preference.

On the other hand, any argument you can make to rationalize homosexuality as intrinsic, you can make for any preference, from how you dress to the movies you watch. Nonetheless, these are still decisions, or choices, despite that they're not likely to change.

You were half right, though, and for that, impressively intuitive. I do believe that sexual categorizations are far too rigid to really reflect reality. I explained in another post that in action, the lines that distinguish sexual categorizations are likely quite blurry, and I believe that most people's experiences bleed into all sorts of categorizations without altogether marrying those people to them.

Even if homosexuality is a choice (though I personally don't believe in free will but ignoring that) I wouldn't view it as wrong. One's sexual preference is a potential form of great happiness and should be condoned insofar as doesn't infringe on others rights.

This is getting a little semantical; in some sense you could argue that if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do X you have a choice between X and a bullet in the head. We just don't generally consider this a "choice" even under the assumption of free will. In a very broad, and my opinion naive view I understand the distinction.

You don't believe in free will? I would like to see you get into that -- would you mind? I'm curious.

I don't consider it semantic at all. If a sexual preference isn't a choice, which is synonymous with a preference, then what is it? A gender? An identity? I think both designations would be exaggerating the relevance of sexual orientation.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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11/17/2011 4:12:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 4:00:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:56:50 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:39:50 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:30:40 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Certainly to engage in homosexuality is a choice. If the feeling of homosexuality truly is a choice then perhaps you're not entirely straight (i.e. you have the potential to enjoy homosexual acts.) If you think sexuality is a "choice" I'd be inclined to label you as bisexual.

I understand the problem with it being understood as a choice -- it often leads to the question of whether the decision is "right."

However, I consider preferences amoral. That is to say, how could there be morality in a preference? Morality is based on what is right, what is right is based on fact or truth; it is true that you hold those preferences, making them morally sound in regards to simply entertaining that preference.

On the other hand, any argument you can make to rationalize homosexuality as intrinsic, you can make for any preference, from how you dress to the movies you watch. Nonetheless, these are still decisions, or choices, despite that they're not likely to change.

You were half right, though, and for that, impressively intuitive. I do believe that sexual categorizations are far too rigid to really reflect reality. I explained in another post that in action, the lines that distinguish sexual categorizations are likely quite blurry, and I believe that most people's experiences bleed into all sorts of categorizations without altogether marrying those people to them.

Even if homosexuality is a choice (though I personally don't believe in free will but ignoring that) I wouldn't view it as wrong. One's sexual preference is a potential form of great happiness and should be condoned insofar as doesn't infringe on others rights.

This is getting a little semantical; in some sense you could argue that if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do X you have a choice between X and a bullet in the head. We just don't generally consider this a "choice" even under the assumption of free will. In a very broad, and my opinion naive view I understand the distinction.

You don't believe in free will? I would like to see you get into that -- would you mind? I'm curious.

I don't consider it semantic at all. If a sexual preference isn't a choice, which is synonymous with a preference, then what is it? A gender? An identity? I think both designations would be exaggerating the relevance of sexual orientation.

I can't give a detailed answer now since I really should be studying for a test I have in 2 hrs so I'm gonna skip the free will issue all together and get back to you at a later date.

I don't see choice as synonymous with preference. Are you seriously capable of just changing your favorite ice cream flavor or food? Do you really think the mind is that malleable? If your girlfriend gained 120 lbs. and grew a beard are you just naively "choosing" not to find her attractive or do would you honestly just not find her attractive? If you can freely "choose" everything, who are you? It seems to almost destroy a sense of self.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/17/2011 4:17:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 4:12:32 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 4:00:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:56:50 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:39:50 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:30:40 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Certainly to engage in homosexuality is a choice. If the feeling of homosexuality truly is a choice then perhaps you're not entirely straight (i.e. you have the potential to enjoy homosexual acts.) If you think sexuality is a "choice" I'd be inclined to label you as bisexual.

I understand the problem with it being understood as a choice -- it often leads to the question of whether the decision is "right."

However, I consider preferences amoral. That is to say, how could there be morality in a preference? Morality is based on what is right, what is right is based on fact or truth; it is true that you hold those preferences, making them morally sound in regards to simply entertaining that preference.

On the other hand, any argument you can make to rationalize homosexuality as intrinsic, you can make for any preference, from how you dress to the movies you watch. Nonetheless, these are still decisions, or choices, despite that they're not likely to change.

You were half right, though, and for that, impressively intuitive. I do believe that sexual categorizations are far too rigid to really reflect reality. I explained in another post that in action, the lines that distinguish sexual categorizations are likely quite blurry, and I believe that most people's experiences bleed into all sorts of categorizations without altogether marrying those people to them.

Even if homosexuality is a choice (though I personally don't believe in free will but ignoring that) I wouldn't view it as wrong. One's sexual preference is a potential form of great happiness and should be condoned insofar as doesn't infringe on others rights.

This is getting a little semantical; in some sense you could argue that if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do X you have a choice between X and a bullet in the head. We just don't generally consider this a "choice" even under the assumption of free will. In a very broad, and my opinion naive view I understand the distinction.

You don't believe in free will? I would like to see you get into that -- would you mind? I'm curious.

I don't consider it semantic at all. If a sexual preference isn't a choice, which is synonymous with a preference, then what is it? A gender? An identity? I think both designations would be exaggerating the relevance of sexual orientation.

I can't give a detailed answer now since I really should be studying for a test I have in 2 hrs so I'm gonna skip the free will issue all together and get back to you at a later date.

I don't see choice as synonymous with preference. Are you seriously capable of just changing your favorite ice cream flavor or food? Do you really think the mind is that malleable? If your girlfriend gained 120 lbs. and grew a beard are you just naively "choosing" not to find her attractive or do would you honestly just not find her attractive? If you can freely "choose" everything, who are you? It seems to almost destroy a sense of self.

Myself, and most of the gay men i know, do not like the word "preference" for the reason that ren points out. Orientation is a more accurate word.
lovelife
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11/17/2011 4:45:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 3:35:23 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:22:56 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Really? You think those people choose to be abused and harassed? That is pretty much what happens when a person is openly gay.

1. I cringe whenever I see the, "It leads to some negative consequences therefore it couldn't possible be a choice." argument. That being said, I think it's probably not entirely a choice, I don't know.

2. I don't know about where you're from, but around here like every girl sucks up to the gay guy (See: "f_g hags") and most of the guys, at least in public environments seem to be uber tolerant so they can be progressive and whatnot. It simply isn't considered cool to bully the gay person, at least in my age group. That being said, I'm not denying that gay kids get bullied. I'm just wondering if it's as bad as people are saying. Don't take offense to that, I admit that I don't have statistics or anything.

At school I hung out with gay and bi kids alot. most of my female friends were bi. When they found out I like girls they shunned me away them.
Like fck bullied even by them??

I wasn't open with any other social group in school, but was often suspected before I came out to anyone and was constantly bullied over seeming gay.
Having more masculine interests, not interested in dating, and seeming awkward in the locker room gave them their grounds to bully, and it happened alot.
That was in wyoming. The bi kids bullied me in Oklahoma.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
WriterSelbe
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11/17/2011 4:46:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 12:40:49 PM, ravynkelley wrote:
Ok so like we were having this discussion where thius guy had said you are born gay. And i was like no being gay is an option. And that u can pick whether you like the same sex or if you dont. So we have never settled this. So Please Anybody Everybody wat is you opinion on this?????

Nobody knows yet. Science hasn't proven or disproven it, so I don't care. Whatever floats a person's boat or gets 'em hot is good with me.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/17/2011 4:50:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/17/2011 4:12:32 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 4:00:47 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:56:50 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:39:50 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:30:40 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:17:51 PM, Ren wrote:
At 11/17/2011 3:16:19 PM, vbaculum wrote:
Whenever I hear a Christian conservative say that homosexualty is a choice, I always know I've learned something very interesting about them that they probably didn't want me to know.

I'd love you to be more specific.

I personally consider homosexuality a choice.

Certainly to engage in homosexuality is a choice. If the feeling of homosexuality truly is a choice then perhaps you're not entirely straight (i.e. you have the potential to enjoy homosexual acts.) If you think sexuality is a "choice" I'd be inclined to label you as bisexual.

I understand the problem with it being understood as a choice -- it often leads to the question of whether the decision is "right."

However, I consider preferences amoral. That is to say, how could there be morality in a preference? Morality is based on what is right, what is right is based on fact or truth; it is true that you hold those preferences, making them morally sound in regards to simply entertaining that preference.

On the other hand, any argument you can make to rationalize homosexuality as intrinsic, you can make for any preference, from how you dress to the movies you watch. Nonetheless, these are still decisions, or choices, despite that they're not likely to change.

You were half right, though, and for that, impressively intuitive. I do believe that sexual categorizations are far too rigid to really reflect reality. I explained in another post that in action, the lines that distinguish sexual categorizations are likely quite blurry, and I believe that most people's experiences bleed into all sorts of categorizations without altogether marrying those people to them.

Even if homosexuality is a choice (though I personally don't believe in free will but ignoring that) I wouldn't view it as wrong. One's sexual preference is a potential form of great happiness and should be condoned insofar as doesn't infringe on others rights.

This is getting a little semantical; in some sense you could argue that if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do X you have a choice between X and a bullet in the head. We just don't generally consider this a "choice" even under the assumption of free will. In a very broad, and my opinion naive view I understand the distinction.

You don't believe in free will? I would like to see you get into that -- would you mind? I'm curious.

I don't consider it semantic at all. If a sexual preference isn't a choice, which is synonymous with a preference, then what is it? A gender? An identity? I think both designations would be exaggerating the relevance of sexual orientation.

I can't give a detailed answer now since I really should be studying for a test I have in 2 hrs so I'm gonna skip the free will issue all together and get back to you at a later date.

I don't see choice as synonymous with preference. Are you seriously capable of just changing your favorite ice cream flavor or food? Do you really think the mind is that malleable? If your girlfriend gained 120 lbs. and grew a beard are you just naively "choosing" not to find her attractive or do would you honestly just not find her attractive? If you can freely "choose" everything, who are you? It seems to almost destroy a sense of self.

I don't understand. Are you saying that choices we make are choices because they have a likelihood of changing? Or, are you saying that an individual is defined by his or her personal choices, and these choices thus cannot be transgressed? It also seems that you believe options somehow reduce a premise's factual or truthful nature. Why?

It seems as though you're defining people as a series of preconceived notions -- that the things they do are based on some sort of intrinsic wiring or code that disallows people to deviate from their designations.

If this were the case, it would be impossible to adapt. However, humans are among the most adaptive animals on the planet, and the most social adaptive.

Indeed, we are also selective, but the means by which we arrive to a selection is actually a complex process that includes both intrinsic and learned components. Some people choose to engage homosexual intimacy due to a preference. To say that this characteristic defines that person or indicates some inherent aspect of that person is fallacious and based on a subjective interpretation of sexuality. In reality, that person prefers humans just as everyone else does, and copulation as everyone else does, but with minor variations, such as appearance and gender. Information that is any more specific is generally irrelevant and is attributed to our social perspectives.

For example, Robert DeNiro reportedly prefers Black women, and to my understanding, exclusively.

Does this mean that he is genetically precluded to seek Black women? That he must now be categorized, because some fundamental aspect of his causes him to be irrevocably drawn to Black women?

Or, did he just see a Sista one day and decide that it was precisely his cup of tea?