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Help Needed in Reasoning with a White Knight

Sk8er
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4/28/2012 3:47:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
To begin, I am having trouble talking with a member on a wesbite I help run. The member believes offense is being made against another member by the head admin. I am trying to tell him he is wrong except he is not listening, and is getting very heavy handed and insulting.

The thing is he's incredibly hard to talk with -his name is Kenny- and he's a bit of a white knight. He gets stuck on tiny issues and nitpicks a lot.

I am just asking for help on how to shut him up in a smart way, he doesn't understand my informal speech and is acting all high and mighty. I added some other staff in the PM topic to help me out dealing with him, anyway, I would like to deal with him also.

So, here is the topic, organising it to make it easier to read:

[b]Topic Starter: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

Alright, unfortunately I -more than likely it was me, so I'm assuming it was me- brought a heavy blanket of seriousness to the seckz thread with talk of younger generations getting sexually active at (what seems) younger, and younger age groupings. 

Also, the press for sexuality within society is overwhelming at times, and, is pegged for being a leading cause in the reason for instigating and having sex within a relationship for a supplement of an actual relationship. 

Now, to clarify; many people (mostly young girls) have the misconception that sex is a grand thing reserved for solely expressing love of an other - well, if that were the case we'd never had the invention of the hooker - so sorry to burst your bubble. Sex has, and it has throughout history, been a companion and pleasure thing as well as something to enjoy with your most beloved/loved person. People's reasons for having or engaging in sex vary, though it isn't and shouldn't be a filler for saying, "this is how much I love you" or some other leading on line. 

Another issue I've seen with younger girls intentionally getting pregnant is the same cause as older women wanting to have a child (I saw older in line with 19-30 roughly, perhaps older) and that is to create a being that will love them unconditionally. Its true, no joke if none of you haven't heard of that. 

Therefore, this thread is to discuss the serious aspects of sex in relation to society, social pressure, instability or insecurity being made up for by having a being that "should" love you unconditionally, or any various related subject to the main point that is worth discussion. 

So, what are your thoughts? 

Remember, this is MD so do craft more than a "I agree" or "Disagree" with about a full 1-2 sentence response, kthxbia, 

[b]Reply: Allera (Blog Staff)[/b]

(Sk8, I think you meant "MD", not "MS" ) 

My definition of "too young" is when they don't understand what they're about to do and they don't accept the consequences. Personally, I have a hard time accepting most young teens understand the consequences if something goes wrong. Birth control pills aren't 100% effective and condoms do break and tear. 

A huge and irreversible consequence is pregnancy. (Yes, you can get an abortion, but that memory will always stick with you or "haunt" you as some people say.) It only took babysitting my niece for 1 hour back when she was still a baby, and that was enough to keep my knees locked together. Everyone talks about the financial aspect of having a baby, but the emotional toll it takes on a person is where it really hits. You really have to be ready for it physically, emotionally, and mentally. Taking care of a 6 month old made me want to run home to mom crying. (I babysat her for nine hours every day for two weeks. I think I lost half my life back then.) 

Another huge risk is transmitting an STD. Who knows where the guy has been, or if he's carrying something? That was another factor in me a virgin, especially with the kind of guys running around in my high school. Some people aren't honest about whether or not they've got a disease, and others (this is the really scary part) don't even know. When it comes down to wanting a family - or even just getting married - I didn't want to worry about having to deal with testing to see if I had any diseases and/or taking precautions to make sure my significant other/future children aren't effected by whatever STD. 

But this is just how I saw things. Sex ed did nothing for me, except show me disgusting birth pictures that made me never want to have kids, and pictures of people with STDs that made me want to avoid the class. It's the things I saw in real life that made me cautious. Friends, classmates, and family members taught me more than and sex ed class could. So many teenagers go out there wanting to have sex because it's the "cool thing," but I feel like they just don't have enough respect (fear isn't the right word) or understanding of the two consequences above. 

There were a group of girls in a neighboring city when I was in high school had sex and got pregnant on purpose. They had decided as a group that they were going to do it, with no hesitation. Their reasoning was that they wanted to be parents, yet they had no income, were still in 10th grade, and very little family support when their parents discovered they were pregnant. They ended up dropping out of high school to work and take care of their kids because their parents (some, not all) weren't going to fully support them and their baby. Stuff like that really makes me question today's youth. 

Teaching also shows you a lot of things. I taught an 8th grader who had a baby that was turning two. Let's think about that for a minute. 8th grade... so maybe around 13? 14? With a baby having his second birthday. Putting age issues and all that aside, having a baby that young really effected her. She was always sleeping in class, since she was up all night taking care of the baby. Her grades were suffering. She was on the verge of dropping out, and she didn't care. She was also very hostile towards everyone, especially if you woke her up, and she usually ended up in in-school-suspension. Teachers tried to help, but nothing go through to her. All she wanted was some sleep after taking care of her boy all night. 

So like I said, if a person understood, respected, and accepted the possible consequences to having sex, then I have no problem with them having sex. But I just don't feel that many young teenagers fully understand or even accept those consequences. Most of the teens I taught had that "I'm invincible" mentality, and that's where I think a lot of the trouble starts. It doesn't help that many parents won't instill common sense (among other things) into their kids or are responsible enough for their kids actions. Behind all these teen pregnancies and teen sex stories, you'll (most of the time) find parents that just don't give enough of a damn.
Sk8er
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4/28/2012 3:48:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Spinner (Writing Staff)[/b] 

Thanks for the female perspective you put into your post, Daisy. I felt like your points were bang on, especially the story about the 8th grade girl. 

Sex Ed is treated awfully callously in this country. It's not a matter of giving kids reasons to do it or not--it's a matter of teaching kids to understand their bodies and learn how to protect them. At my high school, we were taught a very cautious kind of abstinence that was more based around the school's reputation than keeping students safe. I mean, lets face it, culture has an irreversible pull, and kids are going to get involved whether their parents want them to or not. Yes, you can get STDs, and if you're a guy, yes, you can get a girl pregnant. It can happen, so how are you going to be responsible and prevent it? You can't just tell a kid in this day and age not to do something. I was told never to smoke or drink. Well, I smoke. I drink. My friends have taught me how to do it in ways I won't hurt myself, so I don't. I'm also doing it for the right reasons, and I genuinely enjoy it (well, I enjoy lagers and bourbon--the rest can fsck off). 

Allera brought up abortion. Naturally a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, but I really think using it as a means of birth-control is childish and irresponsible. If I was the father in that situation, that's the last thing I'd want. Then again, irresponsible is as irresponsible does. If you were being responsible in the first place, you probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant. And that's what we need to be teaching. 

Ben

[b]Reply: LibraryLady (Member)[/b]

[quote]Allera brought up abortion. Naturally a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, but I really think using it as a means of birth-control is childish and irresponsible. If I was the father in that situation, that's the last thing I'd want. Then again, irresponsible is as irresponsible does. If you were being responsible in the first place, you probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant. And that's what we need to be teaching. [/quote]

/ I think this is a little unfair. As others have said, no birth control method aside of abstinence is foolproof (and even that's not necessarily ironclad) and if the condom breaks or the birth control isn't effective, it's not because anybody was being irresponsible. An abortion isn't a fun procedure, and it ain't cheap. I doubt there are as many people who use abortions as a real means of birth control as people think. I've known a few people to use the morning after pill as their birth control but I don't really know why anyone would use an invasive and expensive procedure as a means for their birth control, rather it's more of a last resort. 

Not to mention, oral contraceptives often aren't tested that well before they hit the market, it's only been in the past few years that doctors have thought to test whether different types of pills are as effective on women of different weights. I was on a birth control considered ineffective for my weight for a number of months. My boyfriend and I are big on using both the pill and condoms but what if we weren't? Is it my fault that I did something that's supposed to be responsible and listened to my gyno and took a pill that basically did nothing for me? 

I openly admit that if I got pregnant right now I'd get an abortion in a heartbeat. I simply cannot afford to support anyone other than myself right now and I know I'm not emotionally ready to have that kind of responsibility. I'm not sure if I ever want kids, but that's a different discussion. 

As for whether it's the "right" decision to have sex at a young age I think it depends. I have a hard time believing that kids younger than about 16 or so really have come into themselves enough to fully understand all the consequences of having sex (and sometimes even then I question some people's sensibilities) but I could be wrong, so I feel I'm in no place to judge anyone who engages in legal consensual sex. I know people who started having sex at age 14 and don't regret it and I know people older than me who haven't even had their first kiss yet. My issue really with younger kids having sex mostly revolves around the fact that I think consent is a little more suspect when you have less of an idea what you're doing. I know that I personally wasn't anywhere near ready for sex at that age, but I'm not arrogant enough to assume that everyone's like me. This is why I agree that sex ed in the states needs to be given a massive makeover. Abstinence only ed is a joke. It's fine to stress abstinence if you want, but to assume that that's going to cut it is ridiculous. They redid Rainbow Brite and My Little Ponies to make them sexier for f's sake, kids are getting pressure from more than just their friends that sex is the awesomest thing ever. 

As to whether it's a grand thing reserved for occurring between two people who love each other, that again I think is up to people individually. For reasons I won't detail here, I was very much terrified of sex and exposing myself to someone that completely for a very long time. So having casual sex or having sex with someone who I had lukewarm feelings for was out of the question. But I respect that anyone else's decision to engage in consensual casual sex is theirs to make. I've no more of a right to decide what's right for someone else's body than someone else does to decide what's right for mine.

[b]Reply: DarkRaven Fiachra (Head Admin)[/b]

My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed. Harsh, is it? Yes. I'm not religious at all, but I think that using sex purely for entertainment, without giving any thought to the natural function it has is childish and irresponsible. As I am a man, you have every right to dismiss me as a guy who does not understand female anatomy, and what they go through during pregnancy. I admit that I will perhaps never understand, but we live in a world where we have free will, so if financing a child is too difficult, then why not abstain? I have had sex once in my life, with a person that I knew well enough to be honest with. After that event, which was "interesting" to say the least, I'm abstaining. Why? I can barely finance a website, so how can I be expected to finance a child too? 

Abstaining is not by any means impossible. It's difficult - yes, but as you were so keen to point out, no contraceptive is foolproof. Honestly, I'm sure abstinence is as difficult for girls to bear as it is for guys. Given that guys are supposedly more randy than girls, most people would say that it is harder for us, but I digress. 

My decision to abstain is not for any obscure religious grounds; it's that I do not have the financial means to look after a child, and I certainly don't want to have blood on my hands by forcing a girl into a situation where she has to abort. We have to be clear on this: women and men are equal under the law, in most western states. Women have the right to refuse sex, just as men do. Women do not have the right to claim that their impregnation is the result of male domination - if something like that happens, they really should call in the law and get whatever rapist they are living in the domination of, locked up. 

Also, for the record - I really don't have a problem with abortions in the case of rape, the blood in those cases is on the hands of the rapist. If only the law allowed for the prosecution of rapists for the murder of the aborted child...
Sk8er
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4/28/2012 3:51:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: DarkRaven Fiachra (Head Admin)[/b]

My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed. Harsh, is it? Yes. I'm not religious at all, but I think that using sex purely for entertainment, without giving any thought to the natural function it has is childish and irresponsible. As I am a man, you have every right to dismiss me as a guy who does not understand female anatomy, and what they go through during pregnancy. I admit that I will perhaps never understand, but we live in a world where we have free will, so if financing a child is too difficult, then why not abstain? I have had sex once in my life, with a person that I knew well enough to be honest with. After that event, which was "interesting" to say the least, I'm abstaining. Why? I can barely finance a website, so how can I be expected to finance a child too? 

Abstaining is not by any means impossible. It's difficult - yes, but as you were so keen to point out, no contraceptive is foolproof. Honestly, I'm sure abstinence is as difficult for girls to bear as it is for guys. Given that guys are supposedly more randy than girls, most people would say that it is harder for us, but I digress. 

My decision to abstain is not for any obscure religious grounds; it's that I do not have the financial means to look after a child, and I certainly don't want to have blood on my hands by forcing a girl into a situation where she has to abort. We have to be clear on this: women and men are equal under the law, in most western states. Women have the right to refuse sex, just as men do. Women do not have the right to claim that their impregnation is the result of male domination - if something like that happens, they really should call in the law and get whatever rapist they are living in the domination of, locked up. 

Also, for the record - I really don't have a problem with abortions in the case of rape, the blood in those cases is on the hands of the rapist. If only the law allowed for the prosecution of rapists for the murder of the aborted child...  

[b]Reply: callmejack (Member)[/b]

[quote]My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed. Harsh, is it? Yes. I'm not religious at all, but I think that using sex purely for entertainment, without giving any thought to the natural function it has is childish and irresponsible. As I am a man, you have every right to dismiss me as a guy who does not understand female anatomy, and what they go through during pregnancy. I admit that I will perhaps never understand, but we live in a world where we have free will, so if financing a child is too difficult, then why not abstain? I have had sex once in my life, with a person that I knew well enough to be honest with. After that event, which was "interesting" to say the least, I'm abstaining. Why? I can barely finance a website, so how can I be expected to finance a child too?[/quote]

Spot on. Teens aren't capable, either financially or emotionally, of raising a child and ignoring the possible consequences of one's actions in having sex (especially unprotected) only further illustrates that point. Now, I oppose pre-marital sex entirely (religious thing, yeah, I'm on of those people). I don't think it is morally right, and I also don't think that kids raised in single-parent homes (let's face it, at sixteen or younger, the chances of a couple making it as a family are slim to nil) are getting a fair shake. 

All that being said, if teens do want to have sex, for eff's sake use protection. Is it perfect? No. But it's a hell of a lot better than all the alternatives.  

[b]Reply: LibraryLady (Member)[/b]

As someone who's waited a very long time to engage in any sexual activity and is currently in a long distance relationship, I certainly know that it's not impossible to keep from having sex. I was merely pointing out that there are very likely few women who do seriously rely on abortion the same way they would an oral contraceptive. 

I wasn't really asking for advice on how to keep from getting pregnant, again, merely saying that I think in a lot of cases there are a lot of adults who do things that are considered responsible by taking contraceptives, often using two that are supposed to be 99.99 whatever % effective when used together and I wouldn't call someone who uses them and gets pregnant irresponsible, I'd call them unlucky. This is why I'm glad the IUD has come to the scene as that's something that's about as foolproof as it gets, (perhaps even more foolproof than abstinence, since though it's not impossible, it's not easy to stick to either and I think has the potential to result in more pregnancies than a couple being honest about their urges and being prepared) though I'd like to see a progression toward more male contraceptives. 

As for the rest, since we clearly disagree on abortion, we've stated both our opinions and I think it wise to leave it at that. I'm curious to see other's thoughts on this topic and I'd rather not threadjack this topic with a giant debate.
Sk8er
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4/28/2012 3:52:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Kenny (Member)[/b]

[quote]My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed. Harsh, is it? Yes. I'm not religious at all, but I think that using sex purely for entertainment, without giving any thought to the natural function it has is childish and irresponsible. As I am a man, you have every right to dismiss me as a guy who does not understand female anatomy, and what they go through during pregnancy. I admit that I will perhaps never understand, but we live in a world where we have free will, so if financing a child is too difficult, then why not abstain?[/quote]

That first part really annoyed me. Personally, I don't consider telling a girl "keep your legs closed" a harsh dose of reality at all, which I think was your intention, but it instead comes off as a very disrespectful thing to say – to anybody for that matter – as in, who are you to give rude advice like that? To put this in perspective, I would feel very annoyed at anybody that was to tell any one of my female friends, or any one of my sisters for that matter, to "keep your legs closed." I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just trying to put this in perspective. I don't think you realise how unneeded that was to say – it pisses me off that somebody could say "spot on" to that as well. Do we like demeaning women? No, we don't. I don't want to hear an excuse or anything; I'm just pointing it out, so moving on. 

There seems to be a misconception that the only people having abortions are teenagers – or that they make up the majority. To be blunt, over 80% of women that have an abortion aren't teenagers. In fact, more than half of these women are in a stable relationship and have children already. 

Implying that anybody who has an abortion is ‘irresponsible and childish' is just wrong. 

I also don't believe people are having sex any earlier than they used to back in these supposed purer days. For one, you have to acknowledge people back in those days used to get married younger. 

Personally speaking, I have two aunties that had children in their teens. Both of my aunties are very well-adjusted, and so are my cousins. 

We also have to remember such a thing as [url=http://en.wikipedia.org...]Shotgun Weddings[/url] back in those days, too. 

In fact, doing some research, I found things are not getting worse at all. Quite the contrary.

[img]http://www.guttmacher.org...[/img]

The above graph shows a steady decline in the number of abortions per year.

Click this link: [url=http://blogs.alternet.org...]here[url]. Following that link will tell you how teenage pregnancy has been declining for the past 15 years since 1991 and 2005, with a small increase during 2006 and 2007, and how it is declining again. 

So in reality, teenage pregnancy isn't a rising ‘problem' nowadays, at least not in the USA, according to those statistics. 

Lastly, what does "giving any thought to the natural function" of sex mean? Are you implying that enjoying sex isn't a natural function? And what gives anybody the ‘expertise' to dictate how legal-aged and consenting individuals who choose to have sex, when and how they go about their intimate relationship? It's nobodies business but theirs so please do not impose your higher(?) moral values on others.

Obviously, as for age limits, ideally I hope the laws set in place (ie age of consent) are being followed. [url=http://www.avert.org...]Society in most places sets the average Age of Consent at sixteen years old.[/url] This age may not be seen ready to bear children, but responsible enough to legally have sex. It's an individual choice between consenting partners.

[quote]Not to mention, oral contraceptives often aren't tested that well before they hit the market, it's only been in the past few years that doctors have thought to test whether different types of pills are as effective on women of different weights.[/quote]
I'm not sure that doctors fully understood all of the research in whole.

Link One: [url=http://journals.lww.com...]The results from Holt's study on Body Weight and the Risk of Oral Contraceptive Failure was fairly inconclusive in that it was a retrospective study of pregnancies that occurred between eight to ten years earlier than when the actual study took place.[/url]

Link Two: [url=http://contraception.about.com...]"A 2007 research study by Brunner, Huber and Toth reveals a weak, although not statistically significant, relationship between obesity and birth control pill failure. The results did indicate that obese women (BMI ≥ 30) had a higher risk for pregnancy. Yet, after the researchers adjusted for the age, race/ethnicity, and parity of the women, they concluded that there was no association between weight and oral contraceptive failure. The researchers did advise that their study could have yielded faulty results because rather than weighing and measuring the research participates, the results were based on the women's self report of their height and weight. Given that women tend to over-report their height and under-report their weight by a few pounds, the BMI may have been inaccurate. Finally, the researchers did not have information on the frequency of sexual intercourse or whether or not the women were consistently taking their pills; the lack of inclusion of these factors could significantly bias the results of this study, and the researchers even concluded that larger, more comprehensive studies are needed to have a more definite answer as to whether obesity plays relevant role in oral contraceptive effectiveness." [/url]

Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said, Lady. 

In conclusion, in my opinion abstinence is a state of mind and an individual's choice. It's not right to impose this belief onto others, and in a way it's the same as a rapist forcing their sexual control onto somebody else.
Sk8er
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4/28/2012 3:53:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Winston (Banned) [/b]

[quote]My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed. Harsh, is it? Yes. I'm not religious at all, but I think that using sex purely for entertainment, without giving any thought to the natural function it has is childish and irresponsible. As I am a man, you have every right to dismiss me as a guy who does not understand female anatomy, and what they go through during pregnancy. I admit that I will perhaps never understand, but we live in a world where we have free will, so if financing a child is too difficult, then why not abstain? I have had sex once in my life, with a person that I knew well enough to be honest with. After that event, which was "interesting" to say the least, I'm abstaining. Why? I can barely finance a website, so how can I be expected to finance a child too? 

Abstaining is not by any means impossible. It's difficult - yes, but as you were so keen to point out, no contraceptive is foolproof. Honestly, I'm sure abstinence is as difficult for girls to bear as it is for guys. Given that guys are supposedly more randy than girls, most people would say that it is harder for us, but I digress. 

My decision to abstain is not for any obscure religious grounds; it's that I do not have the financial means to look after a child, and I certainly don't want to have blood on my hands by forcing a girl into a situation where she has to abort. We have to be clear on this: women and men are equal under the law, in most western states. Women have the right to refuse sex, just as men do. Women do not have the right to claim that their impregnation is the result of male domination - if something like that happens, they really should call in the law and get whatever rapist they are living in the domination of, locked up. 

Also, for the record - I really don't have a problem with abortions in the case of rape, the blood in those cases is on the hands of the rapist. If only the law allowed for the prosecution of rapists for the murder of the aborted child...[/quote]

That is one of the most obnoxious and trollish posts I've ever seen posted on a forum. The first paragraph particularly annoyed me, because of how thoughtlessly it's worded. You aren't a girl, so you have no right to judge them for taking control of their own bodies. The fact that you admit to not having any idea of what they go through in pregnancy only serves to annoy me further. 

This kind of attitude, that I also see a lot among anti-gay rights activists, pisses me off to no end. If you will all remember back in 2008, California had a referendum on Gay Marriage. It was a complete and utter fiasco, that has thankfully been corrected by the Supreme Court. What annoyed me so much about that was how hetrosexuals had the right to vote on an issue that only affected homosexuals. 

Pregnancy is an issue that only affects women. How dare any man so much as have an opinion on it. 

[b]Reply: Mithiri (Blog Staff) [/b]

I think I have to disagree with you, Winston. Pregnancy does not only affect a woman. It also greatly involves the man considering that he makes it possible. Your statement can be rather easily turned on its head, by the way. If pregnancy is only an issue that affects a woman, then why should men even care about birth control? That would be quite the population explosion. 

I actually am going to agree with the first line of DarkRaven's statement. I had to smile to myself when I read it (I'm a woman and it didn't offend me at all, by the way). Now, my own personal position on the matter is governed by my religious beliefs. Abstinence (Purity) is a vow that I have taken myself and will keep until marriage. I just left my teen years a few days ago, and looking back at the whole length of it, I can say without doubt that at no point during that time would I have been emotionally prepared for sex. The teenagers I have known that engaged in it were... different. Not in a good way either. They acted superior, looked at me like I was stupid or something even though I was about four years older than they were at the time. And yet, there was always this weird, shell-shocked look in their eyes that kind of made icicles run down my spine. Like something good in them had died. 

I cannot believe that a person is really ready for sex before they are married. The kind of bond you forge with someone in striving to make it as a couple gives you the shared emotional strength that you need. My own take on sex is that it is a wonderful expression of shared love. A gift that is given, not demanded. 

[b]Reply: Allera (Blog Staff) [/b]

I don't agree with the first bit of PB's statement either. But that gives you no right to flame him Winston. If you have a personal vendetta, take it to a private message. Don't screw it up and get all angsty because of something you didn't agree with.

[quote]Pregnancy is an issue that only affects women. How dare any man so much as have an opinion on it.[/quote]

O rly? How do women get pregnant then I wonder? Miraculous conception? 

That's the problem with most of the teenage guys I taught/went to school with (and even older guys who should know better are guilty of this). They get a girl pregnant and say, "It's her fault. She should have been on birth control. It isn't my responsibility. That's her issue. Etc, etc." A lot of guys are so quick to lay the blame on the girl and leave her to deal with the issue. 

It takes two genders to make a baby. A man has a right to an equal say when he gets a woman pregnant. It's half his work, ergo half his responsibility. (I say "a right" because there are women who, once pregnant, don't want the guy involved. But like I said, they still have a right to be.) 

[b]Reply: Ganashi (Member) [/b]

I don't see a problem with Teen Sex. I mean it seems like you guys think sex is a big deal. Sex is sex. It is an animalistic urge. Some think it is the purest form for one to express their love but it isn't. I mean who would want to show their love by having sex for the first time? Do words not work? Does expressing one's love articulately or the act of spending your life with them not suffice? 

People need to have sex, it curbs their sexual appetite and keeps it in check. I mean yeah you could masterbate, but eh.
Sk8er
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4/28/2012 3:54:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Kenny (Member) [/b]

[quote]I actually am going to agree with the first line of DarkRaven's statement. I had to smile to myself when I read it (I'm a woman and it didn't offend me at all, by the way). Now, my own personal position on the matter is governed by my religious beliefs. Abstinence (Purity) is a vow that I have taken myself and will keep until marriage. I just left my teen years a few days ago, and looking back at the whole length of it, I can say without doubt that at no point during that time would I have been emotionally prepared for sex. The teenagers I have known that engaged in it were... different. Not in a good way either. They acted superior, looked at me like I was stupid or something even though I was about four years older than they were at the time. And yet, there was always this weird, shell-shocked look in their eyes that kind of made icicles run down my spine. Like something good in them had died.[/quote]

I can't consider your gender a defence against demeaning comments. 

Here's my reasoning. Just because you aren't offended, doesn't make it any less demeaning to women in general, or for that matter to the woman it was directed at. You must understand that it's possible for women to demean other women, too. 

For those of you not aware, in example, quite a few years ago in America, there was an opposition against Women's Suffrage. Women's Suffrage is the right to vote and run for office. Do you think man was the only gender opposing Women's Suffrage? No, some women in that time considered a woman's place below a man's – that no woman, counting themselves, had the right to vote or run for office. These women weren't stupid. For instance, some like Helen Kendrick Johns were very clever and thought-provoking. Nevertheless, their views were irrefutably demeaning to a woman's right to a vote. 

I'd like to think in today's society we're attempting to better ourselves and recognise our prejudices, and that none among us will try to demean a group or defend a view that demeans a group, irrespective of your group and your prejudices. 

For instance, "Like something good in them had died." I can't read this any other way than supposing people that have had sex must be less good. Your reasoning is "there was always this weird, shell-shocked look in their eyes" that was, to you, sufficient cause for this opinion. Basically, you made a judgement on how you read their supposed thoughts in their eyes. I'm not going to link the obvious connotations that basing an opinion on a person's appearance can lead. 

I can see this is your opinion and you are free to have an opinion, though, even if it is intrinsically prejudice and demeaning to women. 

In spite of this, getting back to the issue of teenage sex, surely it is not only an individual's right to choose to participate or not, but also to be free of narrow-minded biased devotion. Whether sex is an expression of earnest love … or human lust, who are we to deny an individual's pleasure? 

Please don't use ‘religious beliefs' as an excuse. 

John Shelby Spong (a Christian theologian, author, and the retired Bishop of the Episcopal Church Diocese of Newark) is quoted as saying: "I am always amazed at how the Bible, that portrays my Lord embracing the outcasts, touching the lepers, welcoming the Samaritans, not judging the woman taken in the act of adultery, and inviting 'all of ye,' not 'some of ye,' to 'come unto me,' can, in the hands of a few distorted people be turned into a book of hatred, violence and judgment." 

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your beliefs, but they are your beliefs. If you wish to "keep your legs closed," by all means do so, but please don't go around closing other people's legs.

 

[b]Reply: DarkRaven Fiachra (Head Admin)[/b]

Kenny, I fail to see your reasoning here. Women say 'keep your legs closed' to other women, just as men say 'keep your little friend inside your pants' to other men. I can see how you would think it is harsh or cruel, but demeaning to women... Jesus Christ. Especially considering that I believe that that rule applies to both men AND women. If you don't have the required disposable income to look after a baby, then don't have sex. 

Sorry, I'm just completely fed up with the attitude people have here (though it could very well not be prevalent anywhere else in the world, so don't take this badly if it isn't) to the guy who has sex with the 'poor innocent girl'. One thing leads to another, and suddenly he's the enemy of the community. It happened to a friend of mine, and I'm just keen to not let it happen to anyone else. Basically, boy has sex with girl, girl gets pregnant and gives birth. Boy drops out of school and works at a building site to pay for the baby, while the girl goes on to university and her parents look after it. Boy is hated by everyone for the 'crime' he committed. 

So yeah, that's Dear old Catholic Ireland for you. 

[b]Reply: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

Kenny you need to lay off, now; this is an open discussion on society and sex and is not pertaining solely to an "issue of teen sex" - I titled it that way because the majority of the user base or Hortorian are still teens and therefore that is the most relevant a title that could be used. 

Furthermore if you are targeting Mithiri, you, Sir, are being hypocritical in response because not once in her quoted post did she state the words advocating for all persons to wait before marriage and only spoke in relation to her own stance and reasoning for waiting. 

You need to double check and read what a person says before going full steam ahead in debate; her post stated that others, younger teens to be precise, had looked down upon her for her choice of being abstinent until marriage. 

If there is any demeaning aspect found in this discussion - it would be others condemning a person for their own personal choice. Not once did I see Mithiri state or phrase the statement that; 

"All persons should be abstinent until marriage because otherwise they are condemned and worthless and *insert other actual demeaning things here*" 

Don't inform a member that she or he cannot use Religion as an excuses for their own personly choice - this isn't a dictatorship and no one should bust in and demand people live their lives "this way or that way". 

Your response has officially unnerved me and to some extent has me on the verge of actually going "Rawr, Mad Admin, Rawr" - however, since you seem never able to actually understand my point, there's little sense of me detracting into an actual rant. 

I will say this, however; 

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE A BABY AND DON'T WANT TO PRACTICE SAFE SEX KEEP YOUR DAMN LEGS CLOSED - BOYS AND GIRLS 

The formulated argument isn't, and wasn't, stated to tell people they cannot have sex; the previous posters have stated similar things because people that are not ready to have a baby and unwilling to practice safe sex should, logic following, not have sex. 

Again, check a persons response before railing on them for discussion and using their own personal justifications to explain their stance on the matter. 

P.S. When Someone says, "(I'm a woman and it didn't offend me at all, by the way)" - it means exactly what it means - that person, whilst within the group the other member addressed, did not personally find it offensive. 

It doesn't mean all persons that the other member mentioned either agree or are actually offended by the statement. 

-Sk8 out.
Sk8er
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4/28/2012 3:57:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Kenny (Member) [/b]

Now that you've clarified, [Fiachra,] I can see why you believe that abstaining from sex is a way of avoiding the same thing happening to you. However, the reality is that many people who engage in sexual activity don't have children, having taken the necessary precautions or just not fallen pregnant. 

I'm still against your inflammatory remark telling LibraryLady to close her legs in response to her post. You yourself know it was meant to be inflammatory because you mentioned it was "Harsh? Yes." 

Perhaps it was to just raise a subject of abstinence in the debate. However, it still sounded callous and I don't think you really considered her feelings. 

[b]Reply: DarkRaven Fiachra (Head Admin)[/b]

Kenny, there is no more common debating tool on the planet than talking bluntly to someone, so I fail to see your issue with that comment. People don't win debates by being nice all the time. If you are going to continue to take issue with my methods, rather than actually refuting my points then take it over PM. LibraryLady made a good enough reply to it, which shows that she is well capable of defending herself - she has no need for a white-knight. And if she has taken any remark I've made personally, she is well capable of PMing me and sorting it out civilly. 

[b]Reply: Matty_Lee (Member)[/b]

Eh... I'm of the opinion that personal attacks, red herrings, and other various diversions are far more common and effective. Talking bluntly just makes people go all pack mentality on your hindquarters. 

Simply put, ascribing motivations and thought processes to your opponent is a perfectly good way to get points. Generally if you're called on you bs most people don't notice or care, as they've already made up their minds. 

It is rather funny that you imply that Fiachra's Catholic... because he's an infidel. 

Still not sure why we care about feelings. Respecting feelings is all well and good when it makes people like you, but the modern obsession with making everyone happy no matter how deserving they are is just absurd beyond belief. What is is, was is said is said, making your feelings known is a complete waste of time, just kick some tushie and call it a night. That way your feelings are actually channeled towards something productive, as opposed to emoting. 

[b]End.

Our story doesn't really end there. Outsmarted by the moderation team put forward this unworthy White Knight decided to take the issue to PM.[/b]

[b]PM Starter: Kenny (Member)[/b]

[quote]Furthermore if you are targeting Mithiri, you, Sir, are being hypocritical in response because not once in her quoted post did she state the words advocating for all persons to wait before marriage and only spoke in relation to her own stance and reasoning for waiting.[/quote]

No, she said: "I actually am going to agree with the first line of DarkRaven's statement." Which was, "My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed." 

She was agreeing with Fiachra singularising one girl, to keep her legs closed. I like the guy, sure, but I'm going to call bullsh*t when I see it. That's not fair to LibraryLady and you know it, because that's insulting as hell. 

You must realise that LibraryLady was offended when she replied, "I wasn't really asking for advice on how to keep from getting pregnant, again, merely saying that I think in a lot of cases there are a lot of adults who do things that are considered responsible by taking contraceptives, often using two that are supposed to be 99.99 whatever % effective when used together and I wouldn't call someone who uses them and gets pregnant irresponsible, I'd call them unlucky." 

Don't try and take a moral high ground with me about misunderstanding the situation. I'm trying to have a civil debate, and not trying to insult people. I'm trying to politely point out to people, "That's a comment in poor taste." 

I can understand you're trying to defend Mithiri because she's a friend, but I think I obviously need to point this out. 

By the way, what I meant by ‘please don't use your religion as an excuse' was, ‘please don't use your religion as an excuse to insult people.' 

Personally, I don't think insulting people can be excused by religious beliefs. That's totally unfair to the person being insulted. 

Edit: By the way, I forgot to include, I'm PMing this to you, because I don't want the situation to blow out of proportion, either.  

[b]Reply: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

Let me level the table with you - Mithiri was agreeing with Fiachra's comment of keeping one's legs closed in order to (without a doubt) avoid getting pregnant. 

For starters, the reason I cracked down in the thread was because from what I saw, it looked like a crack down big time on Mithiri and she wasn't the one getting ... Hm, preachy about it? 

Now, if you'd targeted Fiachra's post more - I'd actually only broke in because it was pretty heavy handed (typed) on and railing against Mithiri. 

And, since Fiachra's post isn't on the second page, its hard to follow the exact line - I only popped in since I created the thread to see where it was angling towards now. 

Tell me though, if you took out the "slap in the face" of Fiachra's comment, and only take into account Mithiri is responding to the, "keep your legs closed" - what does your post turn out to be? 

Aside from her agreeing with a portion of what Fiachra said - that evidence is lacking and it seems pretty harsh because there is no connection with the actual statement that is at the bare bottom of this issue. 

Also, if this is how I saw your post - it hasn't conveyed the notion of, "That's a comment in poor taste." 

It looks like your telling Mithiri she's a belitter of her own gender and using her own stance to attack people - your issue clearly comes back to Fiachra's post - and that wasn't evident enough since the one that received the brunt of your counter argument was Mithiri.
OberHerr
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4/28/2012 3:57:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Um....
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 3:58:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Kenny (Member)[/b]

Thank you. I'm glad you want to level with me; I was worried you wouldn't be willing to by the tone of your post, and if my PM was appropriate at all. I have to say I'm sorry in advance for the sheer length of this post, but I hope you read it all, as it's me laying all my cards on the table, too. 

First, you have to understand I made two posts. The first one was directed wholly on Fiachra, who hadn't replied up until now, and the second was directed at Mithiri. 

I won't go on a philosophical prattle on about "what if Fiachra's comment wasn't there?" because it seems a little pointless to me. Honestly, and in no way is this a jibe but my belief, I think whether it is or not is irrelevant to the point – considering it is there. She agreed with Fiachra, which was as stated and with no extras saying "except this part" and that's all there is to it. 

Although, if Fiachra didn't single out a person when he said that, I would've been fine with it. I would probably still think it's a harsh statement, but I wouldn't start up a verbose rant, because nobody would've been singled out and in my eyes, personally attacked. I'm not about to go on some very critical rant for no reason other than to piss people off, because that's not my intention at all – although, I am very grounded in my beliefs that those kinds of comments to individual people are unneeded, and I'll defend people I feel are wronged. Perhaps it was because he stated right after 'close your legs', "Harsh, is it? Yes. I'm not religious at all, but I think that using sex purely for entertainment, without giving any thought to the natural function it has is childish and irresponsible." So it was meant to be harsh and the implication was obviously demeaning. 

If anybody told my younger sisters something like that, I'd be mortified that some random would speak to my sisters in such a way. I can't rationalise how you can say that to somebody without it being considered rude in this situation. 

When you look at it, LibraryLady was fairly new as far as I could tell, and being told by some random guy "keep your legs closed" just seems exactly that, harsh – that is said by some guy you don't rightly know. 

As I said, I like Fiachra, and I'll also mention I like Mithiri, too. I don't think their intention was to offend somebody, but Fiachra did and Mithiri followed the same line. Fiachra's reasons for saying it have just been explained, and I sympathise. However, I still don't agree saying it to any girl is a nice thing at all, but I at least like his intention – which was to warn people to be safe. Though, I wish he chose those words originally, and not the words that he actually did end up using. I read "keep your legs closed" and "stay safe during sex and don't get pregnant" as entirely different things. 

So in my mind, given what I saw as a huge disrespect, I had to very heavily criticise what they wrote. It was my duty as a decent person to defend somebody that had been unfairly insulted. I don't have any forum power except my use of words, so that's what I used. I'm sure you'd probably feel the same way given my situation. I can't let people take bullsh*t and not help, just because they are new to the forum and they don't feel they're familiarised enough with a group to defend themselves. 

I thought I made that clear in my first post – in my first paragraph – as a critique on Fiachra's stance, and this before Mithiri's post.

[quote]That first part really annoyed me. Personally, I don't consider telling a girl "keep your legs closed" a harsh dose of reality at all, which I think was your intention, but it instead comes off as a very disrespectful thing to say – to anybody for that matter – as in, who are you to give rude advice like that? To put this in perspective, I would feel very annoyed at anybody that was to tell any one of my female friends, or any one of my sisters for that matter, to "keep your legs closed." I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just trying to put this in perspective. I don't think you realise how unneeded that was to say – it pisses me off that somebody could say "spot on" to that as well. Do we like demeaning women? No, we don't. I don't want to hear an excuse or anything; I'm just pointing it out, so moving on.[/quote]

When I saw Mithiri post afterwards, I read it with the knowledge that she'd now be fully aware of the implications Fiachra made. That's why it annoyed me that Mithiri agreed, with a smile as she wrote ("I had to smile to myself when I read it"), and then I considered she just didn't care, which irked me. 

I don't like it when somebody insults another, and there's this person that's just there to say, "Yeah! I agree!" It reminds me of bully tactics, the pack leader taking a cheap swing at somebody and then their followers stomping on the victim while they're down. 

I'm wondering if she just agreed with it to spite Winston. If that's the case, which I'm iffy at, that is pretty bad because she disregarded LadyLibrary's feelings to take a shot at somebody else. That's a very big assumption, though. 

Regardless, I am pretty certain that LibraryLady's feelings were plainly disregarded or ignored by everybody. That's pretty obvious to me at the moment. I don't think anybody else here gave her a single thought or a bit of empathy, and that's pretty bad in itself. 

By the way, I'm completely willing to apologise to Mithiri if she feels I attacked her religious beliefs. That's if she wants my apology. I don't know if PMing her or not would be appropriate. 

I also wish LibraryLady didn't take those comments personally, because they indeed seemed to be aimed directly at her. 

Though, the below quote of yours confuses me:

[quote]Kenny you need to lay off, now; this is an open discussion on society and sex and is not pertaining solely to an "issue of teen sex" - I titled it that way because the majority of the user base or Hortorian are still teens and therefore that is the most relevant a title that could be used. [/quote]

When you originally said, in your first post:

[quote]Therefore, this thread is to discuss the serious aspects of sex in relation to society, social pressure, instability or insecurity being made up for by having a being that "should" love you unconditionally, or any various related subject to the main point that is worth discussion.[/quote]

However, early in the discussion people were talking about teenage sex and abstinence at the time I posted, and I was continuing this line of topic. I am a teenager myself! If you read both of my posts in full, you would see I went to comment about preconceived notions of teenage sex and consequences (ie teenage pregnancies and abortion rates). The point I was trying to illustrate was that both teenage pregnancy and abortion rates for teenagers and other women were declining; that the notion that there's an increase in sexual activity of younger, and younger people isn't necessarily true and that the evidence would suggest on the contrary. 

You yourself started the topic with, "Alright, unfortunately I -more than likely it was me, so I'm assuming it was me- brought a heavy blanket of seriousness to the seckz thread with talk of younger generations getting sexually active at (what seems) younger, and younger age groupings." 

So I naturally assumed, in part because of the topic title, too, et cetera, that this was the topic of discussion.
Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 4:00:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

Let me work in reverse order and inform you that your knightly crusade to defend someone should also not blind you to the fact that such things as toes being stepped on occur in discussion. You assume that the members in question were belittling and/or demeaning to a member. 

This is not a question of philosophy - it is a question of logic and following the thought process of an individual, you seem to have read far too deeply into the post written by Mithiri to assume she was smiling whilst bashing/bullying another member. That is a large assumption given the fact that you should have clarified before going off on a knightly rant. 

The discussion of the topic is encompassing of sex in society and titled teenage sex because it is primarily teenagers discussing the issue - do not get excitable with me when I am the one that created it, you stated to "get back to the topic" - there isn't a topic, its an umbrella topic under the generalization of sex and its effect upon teens or how they see it in today's culture. 

Your getting out of prospect of what I meant - the thing is there is no specific topic one must adhere to, it is merely a free flowing discussion as my first paragraph states - a generalization of sex and its effect upon teens or how they see it in today's culture. That allows room for several sub topics of discussion without derailing the thread, even teenage abortion fits, but its not the sole point of discussion. 

You are spiraling this far out of control, more so than it needs to be - I intervened because it was apparent you were on some railing motion to Mithiri before even clarifying her point of why she stated what she stated. 

You assumed the worst, and that is she was intentionally attacking another member when she didn't even address LibraryLady. 

What is demeaning about telling a person to keep their legs closed? There is no demeaning notion in that - the demeaning notion to the female gender would be to keep the spread, wide and far, and continue pumping out children you worthless housewife. 

The connotation that woman should do nothing but tend to the house and in their spare time laid on their backs is demeaning - informing them to keep their legs closed is not. 

In fact it even brings back the point that a woman should control the situation and have the right to say no if she doesn't' want to have sex. In way of skewing things, I could seriously skew your defense to that of one that is actually damaging to a woman's rights and demeaning to them. 

Harsh is implied by truly harsh words - his was more or less bluntly harsh than trolling/bullying harsh. 

I find the notion that you would not want someone to advocate or speak of safe sex or abstinence to your siblings - depending on age - horrifying, if I had younger sisters I would certainly warn them they had best keep their legs closed and not let some silver tongued male convince them they have to do anything they do not wan to do. 

You see, this can go several ways, but I wanted to shut you down in the thread because you jumped to the worst possible -and ugly- conclusion about Mithiri. 

I like Fiachra, but he's a big boy and can defend himself, but you went off on Mithiri as if she had sworn up and down the exact phrasing of what Fiachra said was true and that LibraryLady should adhere to it. 

You get so defensive over your knightly defense yet do not note that Mithiri didn't address LibraryLady nor reiterate what Fiachra said back at her - she just agreed with the first line - not first sentence. 

Furthermore, to end on a note of perspective, "Keep your legs closed" is the same as "Don't be a fool and wrap your tool boys," - its blunt, not school ground bully material. 

Reply: Kenny (Member) 

Okay, have you bothered to ask LibraryLady her feelings on the matter, and if she felt insulted or not? And as I said before, I felt that it was necessary for me to comment. 

Edit: By the way, when did I say/write this?

[quote]The discussion of the topic is encompassing of sex in society and titled teenage sex because it is primarily teenagers discussing the issue - do not get excitable with me when I am the one that created it, you stated to "get back to the topic" - there isn't a topic, its an umbrella topic under the generalization of sex and its effect upon teens or how they see it in today's culture. [/quote]

Don't misquote me. Quotations are word for word, not what you think I wrote. 

[b]Reply: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

I have, and she has yet to respond; the matter at hand is not whether or not you should of responded, it was the manner in which you responded. 

You went off marking Mithiri as, well, I've already covered this - we'll sit, wait, and see, but you should also find out a person's intention or meaning before railing against them, or asking a question to clarify at the end or beginning. 

Edit: 

You are seriously pushing your bounds by getting nitpicky with me over a minute issue such as this, if this is how you are going to behave the issue is closed and I'll hear no more on it. 

That comment is obnoxious - I do not care what you said, and if you go on another railing rant against a member over an issue of clarification in the attempt to play the role of knight, I'll shut you down again. 

This discussion is over.

[b]But he keeps on going.[/b]
Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 4:01:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Kenny (Member)[/b]

No, it's not. If you can't take advice or criticism, then who are you to give me advice and criticism? Honestly, I was being pretty fair and reasonable up until you called me a white knight.

[quote]Let me work in reverse order and inform you that your knightly crusade to defend someone should also not blind you to the fact that such things as toes being stepped on occur in discussion. You assume that the members in question were belittling and/or demeaning to a member.[/quote]

Without consulting LibraryLady, you are the one that assumed offence was not made. You are the one that is assuming it was not a belittling and/or demeaning comment.

[quote]This is not a question of philosophy - it is a question of logic and following the thought process of an individual, you seem to have read far too deeply into the post written by Mithiri to assume she was smiling whilst bashing/bullying another member. That is a large assumption given the fact that you should have clarified before going off on a knightly rant.[/quote]

I assumed that she was smiling, simply because she wrote that she was smiling. 

These are Mithiri's words: "I actually am going to agree with the first line of DarkRaven's statement. I had to smile to myself when I read it " 

This is the first line of Fiachra's post: "My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed." Immediately followed by, "Harsh, is it? Yes." 

How am I NOT to assume that she is smiling?

[quote]Your getting out of prospect of what I meant - the thing is there is no specific topic one must adhere to, it is merely a free flowing discussion as my first paragraph states - a generalization of sex and its effect upon teens or how they see it in today's culture. That allows room for several sub topics of discussion without derailing the thread, even teenage abortion fits, but its not the sole point of discussion.[/quote]

I'm getting out of prospect? What the hell does prospect mean in this sense? Are you confused with the word perspective? Please be clearer. 

This is what prospect means: http://dictionary.reference.com...

[quote]You are spiraling this far out of control, more so than it needs to be - I intervened because it was apparent you were on some railing motion to Mithiri before even clarifying her point of why she stated what she stated.[/quote]

As I said before, I'm still willing to apologise to Mithiri if she felt hurt by my comments. 

Also, I am still waiting for Mithiri to clarify why she readily agreed and smiled on a comment directed towards LibraryLady, which was, "My reply to your post, LibraryLady, can be summed up in one sentence: keep your legs closed." Immediately followed by, "Harsh, is it? Yes." 

I personally took offence at that comment directed at LibraryLady.

[quote]You assumed the worst, and that is she was intentionally attacking another member when she didn't even address LibraryLady. [/quote]

Usually when somebody agrees with another person's line, which I saw as an insult, they agree with who it is directed to as well. This is logical.

[quote]What is demeaning about telling a person to keep their legs closed? There is no demeaning notion in that - the demeaning notion to the female gender would be to keep the spread, wide and far, and continue pumping out children you worthless housewife. 

The connotation that woman should do nothing but tend to the house and in their spare time laid on their backs is demeaning - informing them to keep their legs closed is not.[/quote]

They are BOTH demeaning, because they imply that the individual it is directed towards cannot make up their own mind about what they should do with their own body. 

To demean somebody means, "to lower in dignity, honor, or standing; debase:" or the synonyms which are, "degrade, humble, humiliate, mortify". I see it as degrading and humiliating having someone tell another to "close their legs" and for another, to readily agree and smile about it.

[quote]In fact it even brings back the point that a woman should control the situation and have the right to say no if she doesn't' want to have sex. In way of skewing things, I could seriously skew your defense to that of one that is actually damaging to a woman's rights and demeaning to them.[/quote]

Yes, a woman should have control over her own body. If she wants to have sex or not, it is her choice. I have no qualms about that.

[quote]Harsh is implied by truly harsh words - his was more or less bluntly harsh than trolling/bullying harsh.[/quote]

Here's the definition of Harsh, which you're arguing is alright, "ungentle and unpleasant in action or effect" and yes, keeping your legs closed is, "Harsh is it? Yes." Furthermore, it's also defined as "grim or unpleasantly severe; stern; cruel; austere". So if you think that being "cruel", "unpleasant", etc, is fine, then I suppose that's up to you.

[quote]I find the notion that you would not want someone to advocate or speak of safe sex or abstinence to your siblings - depending on age - horrifying, if I had younger sisters I would certainly warn them they had best keep their legs closed and not let some silver tongued male convince them they have to do anything they do not wan to do.[/quote]

What makes you assume this? It is clear that what I am defending is an individual's right not to be insulted. Never did I suggest in my postings that education in a productive and calm manner was not needed. I did not say anything about the sex education of my sisters, but rather commented about the inappropriateness of a guy telling them in a harsh way, "to keep their legs closed." A totally different concept. 

What I did say is, "I can't rationalise how you can say that to somebody without it being considered rude in this situation." 

What you tell your sisters is fine, I have no problem with that.

[quote]I like Fiachra, but he's a big boy and can defend himself, but you went off on Mithiri as if she had sworn up and down the exact phrasing of what Fiachra said was true and that LibraryLady should adhere to it. 

You get so defensive over your knightly defense yet do not note that Mithiri didn't address LibraryLady nor reiterate what Fiachra said back at her - she just agreed with the first line - not first sentence. 

Furthermore, to end on a note of perspective, "Keep your legs closed" is the same as "Don't be a fool and wrap your tool boys," - its blunt, not school ground bully material.[/quote]

So Fiachra's a big boy that can defend himself, but are you belittling or protecting Mithiri because she can't defend herself? I did not personally attack her, but rather her ready agreement with the words, "keep your legs closed" et cetera after I had already explained in the topic that I had found it offensive and also demeaning. 

If she didn't want me to counter, why post something I openly disagreed with beforehand? Even if, yes, she just agreed with the first line, which was also the first sentence. 

In conclusion, I would liken the quote "keep your legs closed" to "keep your mouth shut" when you don't want somebody to talk. It's an order, not advice. Discussions are just that, discussions. But how can one participate in a supposedly open discussion on society and sex when individuals are told "keep your legs closed" or "keep your mouth shut"? And yes it is blunt, and being blunt is being rude. As Fiachra explained, "there is no more common debating tool on the planet than talking bluntly to someone". 

So I'll tell you this bluntly, because it seems to be an acceptable tool for debates on this forum: your command of written English is deplorable, and for a website devoted to writing literature and as one of its Administrators, please if you are not sure of word use or spelling, look it up in the dictionary. 

At least bluntness seemed acceptable until I replied to Mi
Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 4:02:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[b]Reply: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

Congratulations - you've pushed me to execute my first ever punishment on a forum, you are suspended for three days for insulting my intelligence and pursuing an insult that was never directed at you. 

Don't bother responding because it is rather clear you do not get the point that this conversation is over - I hope that is blunt enough for you. 

Enjoy your vacation. 

[b]Matty Lee Added. 
Auto Lycos Added. 
DarkRaven Fiachra Added. 

[b]Reply: DarkRaven Fiachra (Head Admin)[/b]

[quote]So I'll tell you this bluntly, because it seems to be an acceptable tool for debates on this forum: your command of written English is deplorable, and for a website devoted to writing literature and as one of its Administrators, please if you are not sure of word use or spelling, look it up in the dictionary. 

At least bluntness seemed acceptable until I replied to Mithiri.[/quote]

There is a huge difference between bluntness and a personal attack. Seeing as you are big on definitions of words, that is something fairly basic you should understand. 

Your leaps of logic here leave me astounded.
 

[b]Reply: Kenny (Member)[/b]

Look, I was informing her bluntly that, "please if you are not sure of word use or spelling, look it up in the dictionary." 

I asked her that, when she uses words out of context or disarray; it's hard for me to understand what point she is getting at. 

[b]Reply: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

You fail to follow the logic of informal speech - which is what I prefer using opposed to formal speech; furthermore, my use of "insult" is in way of what you have consistently pursued up until this point insisting it is an insult. 

Don't infer things, especially given the fact your way of reasoning and thinking is clearly not the same as mine - it is safer for you not to assume things such as what I mean. 

Your sarcasm is not appreciated and it is very clear you do not understand when you've lost; for one so set with using the defined meaning of a word, you've gone and bypassed it and in your pursuit of knighthood insulted me. I haven't insulted you, no one has insulted you, and yet you readily go insulting me and then proceed to be sarcastic about the fact. 

I have been patient, I could have easily brushed this off - which I should have - or proceeded to ban you just because the notion of you annoying me popped to mind. I haven't. So be careful in what manner you continue to bash me. 

[b]Reply: DarkRaven Fiachra (Head Admin)[/b]

Not another member with a victim complex... >_> 

[b]Reply: Kenny (Member)[/b]

I'm just wondering if my comments were the actual concern, or this 'white-knighting' business was really the point? Seriously, as soon as you first replied, I said, "if I offended her [Mithiri], I'll apologise." I got no response from that. 

By the way, I never said I was pursuing knighthood or whatever else. That was the label YOU gave me. 

[b]Reply: Sk8 (Vice Admin)[/b]

Did LibraryLady come crying to you to defend her? No. Did Mithiri come crying to me to defend her? No - but I stepped in because as an Administrator its my job to step in. This is not an issue against yourself and yet you doggedly pursue it as if it were a direct insult to you. Ergo, your being a white knight where none is needed and pushing the matter severally out of proportion. 

You think I'm taking this from a personal stance - if that is your issue of me waffling, you should have checked that at the door. My intervention was because of a needless railing that came about from your feeling of being insulted on behalf of another that never requested your defense. 

You really need to re-read what has been said - that is all I can say, I'm exasperated attempting to reiterate myself and failing in the way of communication with you. Go, read, its there for you to see. 

Srsly, you're pissing me off - I wasn't going to stay up until four AM again but I can't sleep with a pest pestering me. 

See above post: Mithiri never came crying to me, you came to me about the insult calling "bullsh*t" and I tried telling you I shut you down in the thread for your railing.

[b]Reply: Kenny (Member)[/b]

LibraryLady did PM me and tell me she was offended. I was also thanked for standing up for her.

Anyway, defending somebody that wants defence does not put a person in the wrong. Lawyers do it all the time. In this case, I felt that a statement was offensive, vindicated because LibraryLady told me she was offended as well. This 'white-knight' bullsh*t is exactly that. Simply, you can't handle criticism. Neither can Fiachra. Honestly, reasoning with the pair of you is like reasoning with a pair of effing imbeciles.

You are wrong. Not me. I was not the one that told another person, "Keep your legs closed." I was not the one that offended LibraryLady. I was the one that simply pointed out an offensive statement and you both vehemently disagreed like a pair of slack-jawed idiots. You are just impossible to convince because you both can't handle criticism.

I was being fair and reasonable with my responses over PM as well. Regardless, you felt it appropriate to call me a 'white-knight' as if name-calling is an actual defence. Honestly, I got tired of dealing with such stupidity and figured niceties were overrated. Simply, I wanted to reveal what hypocrites the pair of you are, seeing you consider bluntness acceptable up until it's used against you.

Whatever. Totally, utterly unreasonable.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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4/28/2012 4:04:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Burn his house down.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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4/28/2012 4:11:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 4:04:12 AM, OberHerr wrote:
Burn his house down.

Hey, is that your first? I'm proud of you.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/28/2012 4:34:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
TL;DR never had so much meaning.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 4:35:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, do any of you have anything smart to say? I was hoping you would be able to help me win this argument. Can you guys help me?
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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4/28/2012 5:35:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 4:35:59 AM, Sk8er wrote:
Well, do any of you have anything smart to say? I was hoping you would be able to help me win this argument. Can you guys help me?

Ok I think i can help.. According to Zdude on the website in question here is a summery:

"Well, a topic was made in MD (Mature Discussion), after somebody made mention of teenagers becoming more sexually active in today's society.

After Spinner made mention that those getting pregnant are irresponsible, LibraryLady rebutted against it. DarkRaven Fiachra then decided to post a reply as well, telling her that abstinence is best.

Kenny then got offended by this post and decided to defend LibraryLady's stance. However, Mithiri agreed with Fiachra. Kenny decided to argue against her, too.

Sk8, trying to keep the peace, made a post telling Kenny to back off. He then decided to take it to PM (Personal Message) and argue with Sk8."

End Summery

This happened before September 2010, so my advice is to move on... I think you probably already lost the argument.
Debate.org Moderator
Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 5:46:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 5:35:29 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/28/2012 4:35:59 AM, Sk8er wrote:
Well, do any of you have anything smart to say? I was hoping you would be able to help me win this argument. Can you guys help me?

Ok I think i can help.. According to Zdude on the website in question here is a summery:

"Well, a topic was made in MD (Mature Discussion), after somebody made mention of teenagers becoming more sexually active in today's society.

After Spinner made mention that those getting pregnant are irresponsible, LibraryLady rebutted against it. DarkRaven Fiachra then decided to post a reply as well, telling her that abstinence is best.

Kenny then got offended by this post and decided to defend LibraryLady's stance. However, Mithiri agreed with Fiachra. Kenny decided to argue against her, too.

Sk8, trying to keep the peace, made a post telling Kenny to back off. He then decided to take it to PM (Personal Message) and argue with Sk8."

End Summery


This happened before September 2010, so my advice is to move on... I think you probably already lost the argument.

I found Kenny's email and want to continue the debate. He left the site afterwards and I want to make sure he knows he was wrong.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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4/28/2012 5:50:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 5:46:12 AM, Sk8er wrote:
At 4/28/2012 5:35:29 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/28/2012 4:35:59 AM, Sk8er wrote:
Well, do any of you have anything smart to say? I was hoping you would be able to help me win this argument. Can you guys help me?

Ok I think i can help.. According to Zdude on the website in question here is a summery:

"Well, a topic was made in MD (Mature Discussion), after somebody made mention of teenagers becoming more sexually active in today's society.

After Spinner made mention that those getting pregnant are irresponsible, LibraryLady rebutted against it. DarkRaven Fiachra then decided to post a reply as well, telling her that abstinence is best.

Kenny then got offended by this post and decided to defend LibraryLady's stance. However, Mithiri agreed with Fiachra. Kenny decided to argue against her, too.

Sk8, trying to keep the peace, made a post telling Kenny to back off. He then decided to take it to PM (Personal Message) and argue with Sk8."

End Summery


This happened before September 2010, so my advice is to move on... I think you probably already lost the argument.

I found Kenny's email and want to continue the debate. He left the site afterwards and I want to make sure he knows he was wrong.

You must be new to the whole internet thing. Ya don't chase people down to make them know they wrong. That is mental.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/28/2012 6:15:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 5:46:12 AM, Sk8er wrote:
At 4/28/2012 5:35:29 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/28/2012 4:35:59 AM, Sk8er wrote:
Well, do any of you have anything smart to say? I was hoping you would be able to help me win this argument. Can you guys help me?

Ok I think i can help.. According to Zdude on the website in question here is a summery:

"Well, a topic was made in MD (Mature Discussion), after somebody made mention of teenagers becoming more sexually active in today's society.

After Spinner made mention that those getting pregnant are irresponsible, LibraryLady rebutted against it. DarkRaven Fiachra then decided to post a reply as well, telling her that abstinence is best.

Kenny then got offended by this post and decided to defend LibraryLady's stance. However, Mithiri agreed with Fiachra. Kenny decided to argue against her, too.

Sk8, trying to keep the peace, made a post telling Kenny to back off. He then decided to take it to PM (Personal Message) and argue with Sk8."

End Summery


This happened before September 2010, so my advice is to move on... I think you probably already lost the argument.

I found Kenny's email and want to continue the debate. He left the site afterwards and I want to make sure he knows he was wrong.

That is stalking . . .

The fact that you have no rebuttals means that you know you lost the debate, by the way.
Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 8:43:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not stalking... I just want to prove that he's wrong.

Also, its not that I haven't proven him wrong already, or lost the debate, its only I want him to understand he lost. I want him to admit he is wrong.
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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4/28/2012 9:03:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 8:43:54 AM, Sk8er wrote:
I'm not stalking... I just want to prove that he's wrong.

Also, its not that I haven't proven him wrong already, or lost the debate, its only I want him to understand he lost. I want him to admit he is wrong.

http://xkcd.com...
Sk8er
Posts: 23
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4/28/2012 10:46:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 9:03:47 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 4/28/2012 8:43:54 AM, Sk8er wrote:
I'm not stalking... I just want to prove that he's wrong.

Also, its not that I haven't proven him wrong already, or lost the debate, its only I want him to understand he lost. I want him to admit he is wrong.

http://xkcd.com...

Exactly, that picture is how I feel. Thank you for understanding. :)
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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4/28/2012 10:48:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/28/2012 10:46:32 AM, Sk8er wrote:
At 4/28/2012 9:03:47 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 4/28/2012 8:43:54 AM, Sk8er wrote:
I'm not stalking... I just want to prove that he's wrong.

Also, its not that I haven't proven him wrong already, or lost the debate, its only I want him to understand he lost. I want him to admit he is wrong.

http://xkcd.com...

Exactly, that picture is how I feel. Thank you for understanding. :)

She wasn't understanding. She was making fun of you. Because you are insane.