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Why Bother?

royalpaladin
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7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/19/2012 9:41:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Suicide Help Hotline is that way -------->
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Contra
Posts: 3,941
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7/19/2012 9:51:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

Social interactions can be good. You just have to try and enjoy them. Try and become more relaxed and at ease. This helps me become more comfortable and outgoing.

You could start slowly as well.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/19/2012 9:53:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

A communist that doesn't want to associate with anyone?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/19/2012 9:57:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:53:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

A communist that doesn't want to associate with anyone?

Lol. +1
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/19/2012 9:58:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:53:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

A communist that doesn't want to associate with anyone?

Yeah. If I could just shut myself in a room with books and a computer, I'd be fine. I wouldn't have to talk to anybody. No more pain, no more drama, no more games. Sounds great . . .
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/19/2012 10:09:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:58:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/19/2012 9:53:27 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

A communist that doesn't want to associate with anyone?

Yeah. If I could just shut myself in a room with books and a computer, I'd be fine. I wouldn't have to talk to anybody. No more pain, no more drama, no more games. Sounds great . . .

Okay, on a more serious note.

While that may shut out the emotional pain from life's roller coaster, it also shuts out the joy, happiness, and love. And without that, you suffer through another type of pain that is basically social starvation. We are social creatures by nature.

Books can tell you a funny story, and make you laugh, but they can't laugh at your funny stories. They can't care about you, or help fill that hole inside you.

Whether we like to believe it or not, often blind, illogical optimism is the best option. So just have some blind illogical trust in Dory and just keep swimming.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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7/19/2012 10:13:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Interactions that end in pain aren't inherently bad. Its only after having bad conversations that you can appreciate good ones. As an example, pizza only tastes good as long as there are foods that taste worse.

A lot of conversations do have power issues behind them, but thats mostly in the workplace.

Of course, some people just don't like talking, whereas for some people it just comes naturally. If you're in the former, well it is possible to change to where you are able to converse comfortably (I did, for instance) but only if you want to.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/19/2012 10:38:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

I guess the obvious answer here is, association can't be intrinsically good or bad,...it depends on who you associate with.

I find that if I ignore the jack@$$es, the world is full of wonderful, and genuine people.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/19/2012 10:48:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 10:38:27 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

I guess the obvious answer here is, association can't be intrinsically good or bad,...it depends on who you associate with.

I find that if I ignore the jack@$$es, the world is full of wonderful, and genuine people.

I think the problem that she is having is that there are people that seem wonderful and genuine, but after you've let them in and lowered your guard, they hurt you in some way (back stab, or flee when you need them, or when they no longer need you).

Those people are out there and they can be hard to see until you are looking at hindsight.

Just remember, that if you choose to be a good friend and a good person, then they are the ones that are worse off for no longer having you in their lives. But don't hold that view in spite (as in "ha ha, you loser, you don't get someone like me!"), but in sincere remorse (as in "I'm sorry that you've chosen this, maybe someday you will realize that it was a mistake").
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/19/2012 10:49:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anyway, regardless of any and all of our differences, I do hope you become stronger and better and are able to move on and regain happiness.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/19/2012 10:52:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe becoming indifferent to the social community would be a progression, however, as already stated, we are by nature, social beings. Thus, I do not think that is wholly possible and wouldn't advise trying.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/19/2012 10:52:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 10:48:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/19/2012 10:38:27 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

I guess the obvious answer here is, association can't be intrinsically good or bad,...it depends on who you associate with.

I find that if I ignore the jack@$$es, the world is full of wonderful, and genuine people.

I think the problem that she is having is that there are people that seem wonderful and genuine, but after you've let them in and lowered your guard, they hurt you in some way (back stab, or flee when you need them, or when they no longer need you).

Those people are out there and they can be hard to see until you are looking at hindsight.

Just remember, that if you choose to be a good friend and a good person, then they are the ones that are worse off for no longer having you in their lives. But don't hold that view in spite (as in "ha ha, you loser, you don't get someone like me!"), but in sincere remorse (as in "I'm sorry that you've chosen this, maybe someday you will realize that it was a mistake").

Yep most people are hypocrites, stupid, and quite willingly stab you back if the benefit outweigh the cost. Yet we still want to be around other humans, its a natural desire. Sometimes you have to lose close friends but that's the reality one has to deal with.
Open borders debate:
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/19/2012 10:54:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Like probably almost everyone says bad things about you behind your back. It's just one of those things you have to accept as reality.
Open borders debate:
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Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/19/2012 10:57:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

At 7/19/2012 9:58:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Yeah. If I could just shut myself in a room with books and a computer, I'd be fine. I wouldn't have to talk to anybody. No more pain, no more drama, no more games. Sounds great . . .

They are artificial until you give them time to develop, become richer, mature with a distinctive aura, and help exert an influence over the participants.:-)

I cannot express more than what Ore_Ele has stated, but to be able to exist with the fringes of the world can make a seemingly profit-less life a bit more purposeful: if you want, it can be reactionary to the seemingly meaningless value or character of your life as you wish to construct it around it, or extend your time to encompass it.

(response to second one) That's presuming that isolation and introspection can simply destroy all pain, game, and etc but it will also destroy any broader aspect of happiness or optimism; I do remember reading, especially in Rilke, of such an overbearing isolation that compels introspection. Perhaps that, and any association with what pleases you, might allow some comfort but it won't compensate for the absence of companionship, especially since--in investigating yourself and others, you are ignoring the outer borders of the world that can do well to enrich your experience that is defined by it.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Man-is-good
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7/19/2012 10:59:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 10:54:56 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Like probably almost everyone says bad things about you behind your back. It's just one of those things you have to accept as reality.

Eh, true. Let's accept friendships as what they are often all: impermanent and not too one-sided or pure in terms of association.:-)
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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7/19/2012 10:59:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would rather be completely joyless and painless than have pain and joy.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/19/2012 11:30:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all.
I've heard the fu****n's pretty good.

Yeah. If I could just shut myself in a room with books and a computer
Books someone else wrote and a computer someone else built with an internet connection? Sounds to me like you want to define the terms on which you're associated with-- to which I say bravo, welcome to capitalist social relations.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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7/19/2012 11:44:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 10:48:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/19/2012 10:38:27 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

I guess the obvious answer here is, association can't be intrinsically good or bad,...it depends on who you associate with.

I find that if I ignore the jack@$$es, the world is full of wonderful, and genuine people.

I think the problem that she is having is that there are people that seem wonderful and genuine, but after you've let them in and lowered your guard, they hurt you in some way (back stab, or flee when you need them, or when they no longer need you).

Those people are out there and they can be hard to see until you are looking at hindsight.

Just remember, that if you choose to be a good friend and a good person, then they are the ones that are worse off for no longer having you in their lives. But don't hold that view in spite (as in "ha ha, you loser, you don't get someone like me!"), but in sincere remorse (as in "I'm sorry that you've chosen this, maybe someday you will realize that it was a mistake").

This is good advice.
mark.marrocco
Posts: 236
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7/20/2012 12:52:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

Well if your age is correct in that you're only 18, there's plenty of reason to bother. Not to sound too much like the obnoxious twentysomething that thinks they know it all already (after all you apparently have what is probably a superior-to-me working knowledge of philosophy), but I do have a point about this: humans are much different emotionally as adolescents for biological reasons (both male and female) than as "adults." This doesn't change, despite the legal proclamation of adulthood at 18, until your early 20s. In other words, what is the sh*tstorm of puberty is bound to be fraught with excessive, overt actions that lead to even more excessive reactions. However, the prefrontal-cortex doesn't fully develop until the time period mentioned, which means people your age aren't going to act rationally or self-monitor their behavior as well as a fully-matured "adult." Obviously there will be huge differences from individual to individual, but in general this is true about pfc function. Therefore, teenagers don't weigh the consequences of their own actions as well, in general, particularly regarding how they will affect others. So don't blame your peers too much for their insensitivity, as they can't entirely help it, biopsychologically-speaking. Also, when that time comes (or more accurately passes, as you won't notice it until it's gone by) you yourself will be able to control your own emotional reactions better and thus be more emotionally self-determined. (i.e. calm, inner peace)

That being said, just because there is a power element involved doesn't necessarily imply that social relationships are artificial. Power is totally natural, for one thing, and for another -- maybe Nietzsche will appeal to you -- humans act a great deal in all they do from a will to power, so when two people interact, there will necessarily be a power dynamic. And finally, it will become apparent that pain is a necessary aspect of ending any relationship, however, this actually proves that they are not artificial, as you would not feel anything if they were not real to you (which is what matters most) and others would not break them off with you if they did not have real feelings that dictated for them to do so. None of this proves that the in-between journey of ups and downs is meaningless, or even wasted. It isn't. Life is a continuous, evolving process and can't be valued solely based on ends, as the only real end in life is death, therefore ends are meaningless and the process itself contains all the value, especially the process of meeting, communicating, cooperating, clashing, commingling, and yes, departing with other human beings.

I hope you feel better, regardless of whether I've helped or not.

Now for a riddle: "Who is the master that makes the grass green?"
"Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence."
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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7/20/2012 2:33:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Royal, I certainly understand what you are going through as I've had those thoughts in the past as well. What you go through with people enriches your life. Painful experiences with people help us to develop a greater understanding of life, and move us towards more fulfilling interactions and experiences later on if we take the time to think about how we got into that situation. (what you wanted out of it, how you expressed yourself, how you were hurt, etc.)

We all need people in our life. Being alone is certainly okay at times but pushing others out will leave you with more pain than you started with. people guide us on our path, whether the experience was good or bad. We are all humans and we are in this together. We have to work together.

For instance, you mentioned something about "not having to worry what others think about me." You seem to express that trait nicely here with your unbridled approach to many topics :) And one thing that we have to accept is that when we discard the fear of social acceptance, we can relate to people in a more honest way. Not only will they influence you but you will influence them. You obviously care about other people if you care what they think about you, so making an impact on another persons life is an enriching experience. You can make an impact on the world. We all can. This is what creation and experience is about. Sometimes it hurts. But it's f*cking worth it, damn it. Look past the bullsh*t and the fear and life is full of potential. :)
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/20/2012 3:09:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:52:18 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
We should hang out sometime.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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7/20/2012 7:57:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/20/2012 7:22:39 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/19/2012 10:59:51 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
I would rather be completely joyless and painless than have pain and joy.

This.

Don't fret - as you get older relationships mean less to you, so it doesn't matter to you too much if you fall out with someone you once loved.

On the down side, it gets harder to feel emotionally close to someone: what they say is true; "the first love is the deepest".
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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7/20/2012 9:32:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/20/2012 7:57:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 7/20/2012 7:22:39 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/19/2012 10:59:51 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
I would rather be completely joyless and painless than have pain and joy.

This.

Don't fret - as you get older relationships mean less to you, so it doesn't matter to you too much if you fall out with someone you once loved.

On the down side, it gets harder to feel emotionally close to someone: what they say is true; "the first love is the deepest".

Actually, the saying is "the first cut is the deepest", but you know what I mean.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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7/20/2012 9:52:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/19/2012 9:40:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Why bother associating with anybody at all. Usually most social interactions are artificial because they have a backdrop of power relations, or they just end in pain.

Well, here's the thing. Most social interactions are certainly that way. Accordingly, like every other thing worth your time and appreciation, the good ones are few and far between. That's alright, though. It makes them more valuable.

I understand that it may have never even happened to you -- coming across a worthwhile relationship, I mean. But, doesn't that just increase the likelihood that it will happen with each moment?

I digress. In sorting this through with yourself, just bear in mind that you contribute to who you interact with and how that interaction turns out every bit as much as the person you're interacting with. As with everything, there is a bit of adaptation one must develop in order to survive social interaction among humans. Like other intelligent, highly social animals, we're high on the food chain, and rather dangerous. If you leave yourself vulnerable and approach everything with your heart wide open, people are going to shiit all over it -- just saying. It's not a terrible thing, it's just the way it is. You adapt. When it's appropriate to open up to someone, you'll know it -- don't fvck that one up, either. xD

You probably know that, but just saying, you know. :3