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Joining my Debate Team at school....

OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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9/19/2012 11:01:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And I can't decide between PF, and LD. LD seems cool, but I like how PF requires evidence.....but LD is fun...GAH! I cannot decide. What do you guys think?

And, don't even mention Policy. BLEAH!
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/19/2012 11:05:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
LD requires evidence as well . . .

Do LD. I did it in high school; it's more challenging than PF because you don't have a partner and you'll learn a lot more. LD focuses on philosophy while PF focuses on public policy.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/19/2012 11:07:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Mestari is currently an LD debater and BlackVoid was an LD debater when he was in high school. Thett does PF. Ask them for their perspective as well.

I haven't seen you discuss philosophy very much, so I suspect you might like PF more. I didn't like PF because it focused more on persuasion and less on argumentation and I didn't like the thought of relying on a partner.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,125
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9/19/2012 11:14:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 11:07:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Mestari is currently an LD debater and BlackVoid was an LD debater when he was in high school. Thett does PF. Ask them for their perspective as well.

*Cough cough I DO LD TOO cough cough*
I mean, seriously. Come on. Out of all the LD debates done on this site, how many WEREN'T created by me?

I haven't seen you discuss philosophy very much, so I suspect you might like PF more. I didn't like PF because it focused more on persuasion and less on argumentation and I didn't like the thought of relying on a partner.

This. You can even ask Thett, people in PF are inclined to literally make evidence up in the middle of the round. It's all how persuasive you can be with your judge and not about actually being a strong debater and bringing up valid points. While LD doesn't make up evidence in-round, we're also more likely to come up with hair-brained ideas and actually debate them like they're legit (You should see some of the nuke war scenario's I've come up with. It's like I'm a policy debater xD). There's pros and cons to each event, but I prefer LD far more.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/19/2012 11:14:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What is this language you are speaking?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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9/19/2012 11:23:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'll try and talk to Thett about PF tomorrow, but LD looks like my sorta thing...
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quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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9/19/2012 11:25:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 11:01:32 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And I can't decide between PF, and LD. LD seems cool, but I like how PF requires evidence.....but LD is fun...GAH! I cannot decide. What do you guys think?

And, don't even mention Policy. BLEAH!

Parli is the only debate worth doing.

LD has got to be the most confusing and boring type of debate I've come into contact with. It's just like pubfo, only it's solo and with more boring arguments.

If the choice is between pubfo and LD, do pubfo, but again...Parli is for people who have balls.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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9/19/2012 11:25:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
PF is generally looked down upon by LDers and CXers, although the topics are more diverse and its more casual. It kind of depends on what you want out of it. PFD is the easiest debate style, followed by LD, and CX is the most difficult, although depending on where you live, LD and CX can be similar in how people argue the topics. Royal could probably tell you whether Indiana is a liberal or conservative debate region.

I would just recommend LD for most people because you get more diverse knowledge out of it. LD has 4 topics a year, CX has the same one all year. PFD has a new topic every month, but anyone who's ever done PF will tell you that the judges suck balls and will cause you to lose rounds you easily won. That happens because most of the flow judges (which you want) go to LD or CX.

But if you're just looking for a fun class that doesn't take too much effort, go with PF.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/20/2012 6:18:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 11:23:28 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I'll try and talk to Thett about PF tomorrow, but LD looks like my sorta thing...

Just a fair warning: you're going to have to work hard in the beginning if you want to do well in LD right off the bat. You need to be working on it every single day. Read debate theory (how to debate), work on the topic every day, read a lot of philosophy books as well as books for the topic, etc.

Of course, you don't necessarily have to care about whether or not you place. You probably could do well after your first year if you didn't expend much effort studying for debate.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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9/20/2012 6:53:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 11:01:32 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And I can't decide between PF, and LD. LD seems cool, but I like how PF requires evidence.....but LD is fun...GAH! I cannot decide. What do you guys think?

And, don't even mention Policy. BLEAH!

Policy is the best.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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9/20/2012 6:54:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 6:53:32 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/19/2012 11:01:32 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And I can't decide between PF, and LD. LD seems cool, but I like how PF requires evidence.....but LD is fun...GAH! I cannot decide. What do you guys think?

And, don't even mention Policy. BLEAH!

Policy is the best.

Policy, can go f*ck itself. No way am I joining it....just a source wall debate. No fun.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

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AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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9/20/2012 6:55:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 6:54:40 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 9/20/2012 6:53:32 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/19/2012 11:01:32 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And I can't decide between PF, and LD. LD seems cool, but I like how PF requires evidence.....but LD is fun...GAH! I cannot decide. What do you guys think?

And, don't even mention Policy. BLEAH!

Policy is the best.

Policy, can go f*ck itself. No way am I joining it....just a source wall debate. No fun.

I loved policy :(
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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9/20/2012 6:57:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 6:55:20 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/20/2012 6:54:40 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 9/20/2012 6:53:32 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/19/2012 11:01:32 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And I can't decide between PF, and LD. LD seems cool, but I like how PF requires evidence.....but LD is fun...GAH! I cannot decide. What do you guys think?

And, don't even mention Policy. BLEAH!

Policy is the best.

Policy, can go f*ck itself. No way am I joining it....just a source wall debate. No fun.

I loved policy :(

To each his own. When I sat through the presentation, it seemed like no fun whatsoever...though TBH I think the team captains were kinda crazy in a bad way aswell....then I went to LD, and I'm like "Hell yeah."
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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9/20/2012 6:59:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 6:57:48 AM, OberHerr wrote:
To each his own. When I sat through the presentation, it seemed like no fun whatsoever...though TBH I think the team captains were kinda crazy in a bad way aswell....then I went to LD, and I'm like "Hell yeah."

If you do policy you get to randomly make up sources.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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9/20/2012 11:46:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 6:18:27 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 9/19/2012 11:23:28 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I'll try and talk to Thett about PF tomorrow, but LD looks like my sorta thing...

Just a fair warning: you're going to have to work hard in the beginning if you want to do well in LD right off the bat. You need to be working on it every single day. Read debate theory (how to debate), work on the topic every day, read a lot of philosophy books as well as books for the topic, etc.

Of course, you don't necessarily have to care about whether or not you place. You probably could do well after your first year if you didn't expend much effort studying for debate.

I actually disagree with this, but it might just be because our areas were different. I've been forced to judge novices at a couple tournaments before, and they drop SO MUCH stuff. 75% of novices I've seen drop entire contentions (on both sides of the flow), often times the criterion, and sometimes even the value (which isn't that important, but still). So really, you don't even have to be that good to succeed immediately. As long as you make an effort to respond to all your opponent's arguments, you'll win most of your rounds because they're gonna drop all kinds of crap. And 1/3 of novices don't even take debate seriously.

Now, when you get into varsity, thats when you need to start putting a lot of work into it.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/20/2012 12:11:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 11:46:47 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 9/20/2012 6:18:27 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 9/19/2012 11:23:28 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I'll try and talk to Thett about PF tomorrow, but LD looks like my sorta thing...

Just a fair warning: you're going to have to work hard in the beginning if you want to do well in LD right off the bat. You need to be working on it every single day. Read debate theory (how to debate), work on the topic every day, read a lot of philosophy books as well as books for the topic, etc.

Of course, you don't necessarily have to care about whether or not you place. You probably could do well after your first year if you didn't expend much effort studying for debate.

I actually disagree with this, but it might just be because our areas were different. I've been forced to judge novices at a couple tournaments before, and they drop SO MUCH stuff. 75% of novices I've seen drop entire contentions (on both sides of the flow), often times the criterion, and sometimes even the value (which isn't that important, but still). So really, you don't even have to be that good to succeed immediately. As long as you make an effort to respond to all your opponent's arguments, you'll win most of your rounds because they're gonna drop all kinds of crap. And 1/3 of novices don't even take debate seriously.

Now, when you get into varsity, thats when you need to start putting a lot of work into it.

I guess it depends on the area. We did not have a "Novice" division; all novices started out in Varsity.
thett3
Posts: 14,371
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9/20/2012 6:08:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do LD because if you don't like it you can easily switch to PF. If you want me to discuss the merits of PF with you I will, but it's not like when you pick one you're stuck with it (unless it is, in which case you should consider PF more). Koopin is right, PF is highly under rated. There are however serious faults with it.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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9/20/2012 6:13:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 6:08:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
Do LD because if you don't like it you can easily switch to PF. If you want me to discuss the merits of PF with you I will, but it's not like when you pick one you're stuck with it (unless it is, in which case you should consider PF more). Koopin is right, PF is highly under rated. There are however serious faults with it.

To clarify, it would be much more difficult to switch from PF to LD, but it can be done
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Chicken
Posts: 1,296
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9/20/2012 8:41:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 11:01:32 PM, OberHerr wrote:
And I can't decide between PF, and LD. LD seems cool, but I like how PF requires evidence.....but LD is fun...GAH! I cannot decide. What do you guys think?

And, don't even mention Policy. BLEAH!

Ummm, I believe you have things the other way around (no offense)...

Public Forum was created for 2 main reasons

1) An easier, less intense type of debate was needed (For those starting out and for those who can't handle philosophy (LD) or heavy evidence (CX))

2) To bridge the gap between LD and CX.

Public Forum requires MINIMAL evidence, nearly every case is identical, there are no kritiks, there are no disads or counterplans, there is nothing hard about it. Look at a Public Forum Finals rounds at NFL nations, compare that to the LD or CX National final. PF is a joke compared to the two. I've done all 3, qualified for TFA (Texas) state last year in LD (Only did PF one tournament and CX a few tournaments) Look at TOC Nationals (For higher level) and see how much more intense a CX or LD round is compared to a PF round.

Overall on a scale of 1-10 after doing heavy philosophy debates for about 3 years now I can give a mediocre grading scale as follows (10 being the hardest)

CX- 10/10 (CX truly takes the most skill out of any of the debates, you must have a good partner, it's not a one man show, it's insane)

LD 5/10 (LD is not hard, nor is it easy, it, in my opinion is the average or standard for what debate is at the high school level)

PF 2/10 (The "2" comes from competing at the State/National/TOC level, because then obviously it gets much harder, however not impossible (Unlike LD and CX which REQUIRE countless hours of research/case making rather than just a little bit of prior knowledge to the topic and a small evidence based case) PF is just factual. Who's facts win out in the end? Who's sources are most valid or up to date? That's it. That's why it's a 2/10. YOU will, in whatever state you are debating in, qualify for state in Public Forum, just grab a decent partner (Doesn't have to be even close to as good as you)

Student Congress (STUCO) 1/10 (Any nitwit can win this event, I didn't mention it above because it's boring and stupid, you don't need prior knowledge to break even... which in my opinion is quite sad)

Everything I've said here I say out of experience or a friend's experience. I in no way consider myself the cream of the crop, rather the average high school debater. The only thing that really sets me apart from another average debater is not how i actually debate, but rather both my annunciation (As I do not stutter nor do i mispronounce words) and my case making (Which is very abnormal, and tends to not sit well with low profile/ lay judges but always is adored by flow judges and contract judges)
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DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/20/2012 9:59:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've done Policy and am doing PF now! I feel left out, now. :o
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lannan13
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9/21/2012 7:28:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
LD is allot better trust me I've done PFD, LD, and policy so I know what I'm talking about.
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