Total Posts:93|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Family and Politics

Contra
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/3/2012 11:42:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've became more right wing libertarian lately, but this has not went well with my family, as my immediate parents are Obama Democrats. At first they just were surprised about me supporting Romney over Obama (they tended to ignore that Johnson was my first preferred choice).

However, today, they questioned if I supported proposal 2 (a proposal in my state that would constitutionally protect collective bargaining). I said I'd be okay with it, but I oppose teacher's unions. I said that with labor, if supply outweighs the demand, prices (wages) should come down to meet the supply, and eventually it will balance out. (I forgot to say that teachers unions limit the firing of incompetent teachers). And I explained how the minimum wage thus harms the unemployed.

Unfortunately, my mom is a teacher (and part of her union), and took offense at this. My parents then basically throughout the day accused me of wanting my other family members (who don't have a college education) to get lower wages, which they said is "unfair, just because they are unskilled labor doesn't mean they should get low wages". They also said that they deserve the higher wages because of the work they put in.

I did hold my ground much better on other issues like how the wealthy reinvest their wealth which helps the poor, and if they stuffed their money under their mattress they would lose it because of inflation, but they mocked me.

They also basically said that my thinking would "destroy the middle class". They also basically said my thinking was wrong, "isn't consistent with reality" and came from the people who opposed giving women the right to vote. I told them several times that a libertarian =/= conservative, but they won't acknowledge this.

In conclusion

1. How do you deal with parents with different political opinions than you,
2. (in addition with Q1) how do you get along with mutual respect and less tension, and
3. How do you frame your arguments better when it comes to debating in person (I used to be great at this as a progressive, but now I'm having a harder time at the moment).

Any help would be appreciated, as it's really bugging me.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility." - Paul Ryan
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 12:24:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I was raised conservative.

My grandpa, who I live with, literally does nothing but watch fox news.

It caused some heat when I was Socialist/Communist, which was for most of my post-conservative time.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 12:42:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This all seems crazy to me. I've never discussed, let alone debated, anyone in my family about politics. We have discussed religion, though, so I guess I can relate in that sense.

Even then, it wasn't contentious. My mom explained what she believed and why (she's Christian), I did the same (atheist), we hugged, said we loved each other and supported each other's beliefs, and now we discuss that stuff openly all the time. Damn, my mom is the best.

Good luck with your stuff, though.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 12:53:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've been there before, I support Romney over Obama. I just say nothing whenever politics comes to the table and just keep it zipped. Its not worth the effort in fighting over it. Hell, I lied about who I was voting for.

It really depends on the parents though. My parents are intolerant liberals, so I know to keep my mouth shut. Well, especially my mother.

My brother, who although is an Obama supporter, is at least someone who is willing to discuss these things, so I don't mind telling him that I support Romney.

I pretty much lied and said I was voting for Obama when questioned.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:03:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have some differing views. I am a libertarian and my parents are social conservative, which means there is some arguments. We are both free market capitalists though.

When discussing politics, it really depends on the parent. My dad is a reasonable person and I have conversations about drug legalization, homosexuality, ect. However, my mom is much more likely to take offense to what I say and think.

If it's going to a problem, I would recommend that you keep your opinions to yourself. However I don't regardless of the problems it may cause.

We don't take things too personally in my family. I have really pissed off my mom quite a few times though, especially when I told her laws shouldn't be based on Christian morality. But most of the time it is okay.

I'm not the best debater, but I debate better when I'm talking to someone reasonable and won't be pissy when I disagree with them.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:05:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 12:53:26 AM, darkkermit wrote:
I've been there before, I support Romney over Obama. I just say nothing whenever politics comes to the table and just keep it zipped. Its not worth the effort in fighting over it. Hell, I lied about who I was voting for.

It really depends on the parents though. My parents are intolerant liberals, so I know to keep my mouth shut. Well, especially my mother.

My brother, who although is an Obama supporter, is at least someone who is willing to discuss these things, so I don't mind telling him that I support Romney.

I pretty much lied and said I was voting for Obama when questioned.

Awha! That's why you're so fair! People who have politically intolerant parents with views opposed to them either become impassioned radicals or fairly moderated.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:07:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:05:03 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/4/2012 12:53:26 AM, darkkermit wrote:
I've been there before, I support Romney over Obama. I just say nothing whenever politics comes to the table and just keep it zipped. Its not worth the effort in fighting over it. Hell, I lied about who I was voting for.

It really depends on the parents though. My parents are intolerant liberals, so I know to keep my mouth shut. Well, especially my mother.

My brother, who although is an Obama supporter, is at least someone who is willing to discuss these things, so I don't mind telling him that I support Romney.

I pretty much lied and said I was voting for Obama when questioned.

Awha! That's why you're so fair! People who have politically intolerant parents with views opposed to them either become impassioned radicals or fairly moderated.

I remember discussing with thett3 that debate.org seems to attract radicals, so what's considered "moderate" on debate.org is more radical in the real world.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:13:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Be diplomatic. People will view your cares (and lack of) as a reflection of you. Nobody wins in family political/religious debates. How did the topic even come up? I'm not telling you to lie to family members, but be careful. Find common ground or an common interest ("I do think teachers would be better off under libertarianism") and go from there.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:13:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 11:42:40 PM, Contra wrote:
I've became more right wing libertarian lately, but this has not went well with my family, as my immediate parents are Obama Democrats. At first they just were surprised about me supporting Romney over Obama (they tended to ignore that Johnson was my first preferred choice).

However, today, they questioned if I supported proposal 2 (a proposal in my state that would constitutionally protect collective bargaining). I said I'd be okay with it, but I oppose teacher's unions. I said that with labor, if supply outweighs the demand, prices (wages) should come down to meet the supply, and eventually it will balance out. (I forgot to say that teachers unions limit the firing of incompetent teachers). And I explained how the minimum wage thus harms the unemployed.

Unfortunately, my mom is a teacher (and part of her union), and took offense at this. My parents then basically throughout the day accused me of wanting my other family members (who don't have a college education) to get lower wages, which they said is "unfair, just because they are unskilled labor doesn't mean they should get low wages". They also said that they deserve the higher wages because of the work they put in.

I did hold my ground much better on other issues like how the wealthy reinvest their wealth which helps the poor, and if they stuffed their money under their mattress they would lose it because of inflation, but they mocked me.

They also basically said that my thinking would "destroy the middle class". They also basically said my thinking was wrong, "isn't consistent with reality" and came from the people who opposed giving women the right to vote. I told them several times that a libertarian =/= conservative, but they won't acknowledge this.

In conclusion

1. How do you deal with parents with different political opinions than you,
2. (in addition with Q1) how do you get along with mutual respect and less tension, and

First, this entirely depends upon both sides wanting to engage with mutual respect, it cannot be done by one side alone. Your only two options are to either accept that they will not act respectfully and continue with the "debating" or simply not discuss it with them. I didn't (and still don't) talk politics with friends because it does nothing but cause harm to relationships. There are only a select few that I can actually have respectable discussions with.

3. How do you frame your arguments better when it comes to debating in person (I used to be great at this as a progressive, but now I'm having a harder time at the moment).

You have to 1) know the arguments and counter-arguments before you even begin discussing the topic and 2) have the confidence to stand beside what you say.


Any help would be appreciated, as it's really bugging me.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:13:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:07:52 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:05:03 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/4/2012 12:53:26 AM, darkkermit wrote:
I've been there before, I support Romney over Obama. I just say nothing whenever politics comes to the table and just keep it zipped. Its not worth the effort in fighting over it. Hell, I lied about who I was voting for.

It really depends on the parents though. My parents are intolerant liberals, so I know to keep my mouth shut. Well, especially my mother.

My brother, who although is an Obama supporter, is at least someone who is willing to discuss these things, so I don't mind telling him that I support Romney.

I pretty much lied and said I was voting for Obama when questioned.

Awha! That's why you're so fair! People who have politically intolerant parents with views opposed to them either become impassioned radicals or fairly moderated.

I remember discussing with thett3 that debate.org seems to attract radicals, so what's considered "moderate" on debate.org is more radical in the real world.

Well, my usage of "moderate" actually doesn't have much to do with a point in the political spectrum here. More so, the amount of weight you seem to give to certain ideas.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
blameworthy
Posts: 431
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 4:57:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you think that a fixed, minimum wage harms the poor, pick up a history textbook or read a copy of The Grapes of Wrath.
WW
Posts: 100
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 5:57:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:13:02 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Be diplomatic. People will view your cares (and lack of) as a reflection of you. Nobody wins in family political/religious debates. How did the topic even come up? I'm not telling you to lie to family members, but be careful. Find common ground or an common interest ("I do think teachers would be better off under libertarianism") and go from there.

Well, I am. Mocking is not a response of a rational adult, so don't act like they are. If you care about your family and want to share your beliefs with them, be diplomatic as... Oh My God Justin Bieber... suggested. I also suggest for you to take your time and listen to what they're saying when they do make a point.

My parents aren't political or religious (they go to a Catholic church because "there's no harm in believing God" and, on the same note, I don't protest going there during Christmas, though I'm not a Catholic), so I haven't had this experience. I have, though, gotten into arguments like this with my friends.
WW
Posts: 100
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 6:01:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 5:57:57 AM, WW wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:13:02 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Be diplomatic. People will view your cares (and lack of) as a reflection of you. Nobody wins in family political/religious debates. How did the topic even come up? I'm not telling you to lie to family members, but be careful. Find common ground or an common interest ("I do think teachers would be better off under libertarianism") and go from there.

Well, I am. Mocking is not a response of a rational adult, so don't act like they are. If you care about your family and want to share your beliefs with them, be diplomatic as... Oh My God Justin Bieber... suggested. I also suggest for you to take your time and listen to what they're saying when they do make a point.

My parents aren't political or religious (they go to a Catholic church because "there's no harm in believing God" and, on the same note, I don't protest going there during Christmas, though I'm not a Catholic), so I haven't had this experience. I have, though, gotten into arguments like this with my friends.

Oh, and try to keep the conversation light :)
Muted
Posts: 377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 6:06:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:05:03 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/4/2012 12:53:26 AM, darkkermit wrote:
I've been there before, I support Romney over Obama. I just say nothing whenever politics comes to the table and just keep it zipped. Its not worth the effort in fighting over it. Hell, I lied about who I was voting for.

It really depends on the parents though. My parents are intolerant liberals, so I know to keep my mouth shut. Well, especially my mother.

My brother, who although is an Obama supporter, is at least someone who is willing to discuss these things, so I don't mind telling him that I support Romney.

I pretty much lied and said I was voting for Obama when questioned.

Awha! That's why you're so fair! People who have politically intolerant parents with views opposed to them either become impassioned radicals or fairly moderated.

As I'm not fairly moderated, this means that I'm an impassioned radical?
Exterminate!!!!!!-Dalek.

The ability to speak does not make you a competent debater.

One does not simply do the rain dance.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 10:52:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 12:42:33 AM, Maikuru wrote:
This all seems crazy to me. I've never discussed, let alone debated, anyone in my family about politics. We have discussed religion, though, so I guess I can relate in that sense.

Even then, it wasn't contentious. My mom explained what she believed and why (she's Christian), I did the same (atheist), we hugged, said we loved each other and supported each other's beliefs, and now we discuss that stuff openly all the time. Damn, my mom is the best.

Good luck with your stuff, though.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 11:53:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
My step-dad is a big Obama guy apparently but I don't think he has much semblance of economic/political understanding (especially considering that he pulled out the "people are bad, therefore we need a gov to make sure they're good" argument once before). I don't argue with him, I just leave the room whenever he starts talking politics. Of course that doesn't mean disagreement always destroys the possibility of discussion. My brother is an anarcho-primitivist which I think is absolutely retarded but we always have fun conversations/debates about it. Likewise my Dad is a minarchist and I make fun of him incessantly. We never get angry at each other though and relish the chance to talk politics with each other. The same is true with my liberal mom and ambiguously affiliated sister. So try to figure out if they have any possibility of changing their beliefs (I'd a priori give up on your mom though, teachers are literally the worst). If not, don't bother. If you think it's possible, start slow.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 12:58:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My whole family's been conservative until a few days ago my sister turned libertarian (probably because her boyfriend, who's actually talked with Gary Johnson, is staunch libertarian). My mom doesn't seem to think it's a big deal but I haven't heard my dad's (who is very conservative) opinion really. I lean ideally to a liberal system but support right-wing libertarianism currently for America. I haven't told any of my family that I changed political ideology so I'm hoping to see what happens when she comes home from college.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:40:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My wife and I are diametrically opposed politically there can be no dialog. There is no point in discussing anything to do with politics. I quit voting, there is no point. We just cancel each other out. I decided to let her turn America into a socialist sht hole to teach her a lesson. She thinks because it works in Sweden it will work here. She refuses to acknowledge that Sweden has a static population and has a trade surplus economy which is always bringing in new money to support socialism. America on the other hand has massive trade deficits, massive debt massive illegal immigration and pays for the equivalent of two entire populations of Sweden in the form of health care and benefits to people who contribute nothing back to the system.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:45:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 12:58:13 PM, phantom wrote:
My whole family besides me has been conservative until a few days ago my sister turned libertarian (probably because her boyfriend, who's actually talked with Gary Johnson, is staunch libertarian). My mom doesn't seem to think it's a big deal but I haven't heard my dad's (who is very conservative) opinion really. I lean ideally to a liberal system but support right-wing libertarianism currently for America. I haven't told any of my family that I changed political ideology so I'm hoping to see what happens when she comes home from college.

Fixed
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
blameworthy
Posts: 431
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:46:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:40:29 PM, sadolite wrote:
My wife and I are diametrically opposed politically there can be no dialog. There is no point in discussing anything to do with politics. I quit voting, there is no point. We just cancel each other out. I decided to let her turn America into a socialist sht hole to teach her a lesson. She thinks because it works in Sweden it will work here. She refuses to acknowledge that Sweden has a static population and has a trade surplus economy which is always bringing in new money to support socialism. America on the other hand has massive trade deficits, massive debt massive illegal immigration and pays for the equivalent of two entire populations of Sweden in the form of health care and benefits to people who contribute nothing back to the system.

So your wife has evidence of socialism creating a trade-surplus economy and you are discounting it by claiming that capitalist America does not so we should not implement socialism?

Socialism only works in Sweden because the population is homogeneous.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 2:08:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:40:29 PM, sadolite wrote:
My wife and I are diametrically opposed politically there can be no dialog. There is no point in discussing anything to do with politics. I quit voting, there is no point. We just cancel each other out. I decided to let her turn America into a socialist sht hole to teach her a lesson. She thinks because it works in Sweden it will work here. She refuses to acknowledge that Sweden has a static population and has a trade surplus economy which is always bringing in new money to support socialism. America on the other hand has massive trade deficits, massive debt massive illegal immigration and pays for the equivalent of two entire populations of Sweden in the form of health care and benefits to people who contribute nothing back to the system.

One reason why I take political philosophy as relative.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 4:24:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:46:44 PM, blameworthy wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:40:29 PM, sadolite wrote:
My wife and I are diametrically opposed politically there can be no dialog. There is no point in discussing anything to do with politics. I quit voting, there is no point. We just cancel each other out. I decided to let her turn America into a socialist sht hole to teach her a lesson. She thinks because it works in Sweden it will work here. She refuses to acknowledge that Sweden has a static population and has a trade surplus economy which is always bringing in new money to support socialism. America on the other hand has massive trade deficits, massive debt massive illegal immigration and pays for the equivalent of two entire populations of Sweden in the form of health care and benefits to people who contribute nothing back to the system.

So your wife has evidence of socialism creating a trade-surplus economy and you are discounting it by claiming that capitalist America does not so we should not implement socialism?

Socialism only works in Sweden because the population is homogeneous.

You left out a great deal of what I said, like she does.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 4:48:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:13:57 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:07:52 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:05:03 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/4/2012 12:53:26 AM, darkkermit wrote:
I've been there before, I support Romney over Obama. I just say nothing whenever politics comes to the table and just keep it zipped. Its not worth the effort in fighting over it. Hell, I lied about who I was voting for.

It really depends on the parents though. My parents are intolerant liberals, so I know to keep my mouth shut. Well, especially my mother.

My brother, who although is an Obama supporter, is at least someone who is willing to discuss these things, so I don't mind telling him that I support Romney.

I pretty much lied and said I was voting for Obama when questioned.

Awha! That's why you're so fair! People who have politically intolerant parents with views opposed to them either become impassioned radicals or fairly moderated.

I remember discussing with thett3 that debate.org seems to attract radicals, so what's considered "moderate" on debate.org is more radical in the real world.

Well, my usage of "moderate" actually doesn't have much to do with a point in the political spectrum here. More so, the amount of weight you seem to give to certain ideas.

Really the reason why I might seem to give weith to certain ideas is because I confess that I am relatively totally ignorant on issues. Nor should I be well-informed on all issues because its an impossible task. Economics is a vast and complex field, so I don't know what the best economic policies are. Nor do I have a complete understanding of psychology, sociology, or criminology.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 5:13:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 11:53:00 AM, socialpinko wrote:
My step-dad is a big Obama guy apparently but I don't think he has much semblance of economic/political understanding (especially considering that he pulled out the "people are bad, therefore we need a gov to make sure they're good" argument once before). I don't argue with him, I just leave the room whenever he starts talking politics. Of course that doesn't mean disagreement always destroys the possibility of discussion. My brother is an anarcho-primitivist which I think is absolutely retarded but we always have fun conversations/debates about it. Likewise my Dad is a minarchist and I make fun of him incessantly. We never get angry at each other though and relish the chance to talk politics with each other. The same is true with my liberal mom and ambiguously affiliated sister. So try to figure out if they have any possibility of changing their beliefs (I'd a priori give up on your mom though, teachers are literally the worst). If not, don't bother. If you think it's possible, start slow.

I'm not going to argue with you on economics, but just on level of practical reasoning.....

Don't you think the president has a board of very bright economists with him? These are people who have studied economics all their lives, some of them went to high end Universities, some have PhDs...and such people have always existed, and their ideas have been employed. What honestly makes you think that your ideology is the answer, the obvious solution to everything? If your ideas that constitute "economic competence" were so spectacular, than why aren't people using it or advocating it? I just find it extremely hard to believe that some fringe ideas floating on the periphery of political relevancy are the best and smartest things in the world like you often if not overtly, implicitly prop them up to be....
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 5:39:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 5:13:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 11:53:00 AM, socialpinko wrote:
My step-dad is a big Obama guy apparently but I don't think he has much semblance of economic/political understanding (especially considering that he pulled out the "people are bad, therefore we need a gov to make sure they're good" argument once before). I don't argue with him, I just leave the room whenever he starts talking politics. Of course that doesn't mean disagreement always destroys the possibility of discussion. My brother is an anarcho-primitivist which I think is absolutely retarded but we always have fun conversations/debates about it. Likewise my Dad is a minarchist and I make fun of him incessantly. We never get angry at each other though and relish the chance to talk politics with each other. The same is true with my liberal mom and ambiguously affiliated sister. So try to figure out if they have any possibility of changing their beliefs (I'd a priori give up on your mom though, teachers are literally the worst). If not, don't bother. If you think it's possible, start slow.

I'm not going to argue with you on economics, but just on level of practical reasoning.....

Don't you think the president has a board of very bright economists with him? These are people who have studied economics all their lives, some of them went to high end Universities, some have PhDs...and such people have always existed, and their ideas have been employed. What honestly makes you think that your ideology is the answer, the obvious solution to everything? If your ideas that constitute "economic competence" were so spectacular, than why aren't people using it or advocating it? I just find it extremely hard to believe that some fringe ideas floating on the periphery of political relevancy are the best and smartest things in the world like you often if not overtly, implicitly prop them up to be....

Well, not only do you distort a member's position as if he believed or subscribed to such a belief that his ideology was the only resolution but you instead refuse to consider any overwhelming bias, especially group-think, any large ideological bloc, or other alternative to account the "peripheral" status of such ideas. Please do not try to use, let alone begin, from a measure of "political relevancy" as part of your "practical line of reasoning," sir...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 5:40:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just dunk your parents in live arguments. They can't back out or make excuses when you're arguing in real-time, and you can call them on their mistakes. One mediating issue, though, is how close you are to your parents--I don't tone down how rigorous I am just to privilege familial relationships, so I'm not really concerned with the emotional fallout--they'll get over it and move on after they've thrown their hissy fit (and it's borne out empirically as far as my family's concerned).

As far as arguing better--you just have to practice running the arguments and understanding the logics in which libertarianism can be derived. Even though I do the sophisticated anarchist theory stuff now, it wasn't always that way--I used to be much more superficial. And I did a lot of Austrian Econ stuff for a while after that. It's taken me a while to refine my arguments and methodology, and I think that you'll become more comfortable with it as you do more research, read more, and discuss it with people.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 5:54:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 5:13:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 11:53:00 AM, socialpinko wrote:
My step-dad is a big Obama guy apparently but I don't think he has much semblance of economic/political understanding (especially considering that he pulled out the "people are bad, therefore we need a gov to make sure they're good" argument once before). I don't argue with him, I just leave the room whenever he starts talking politics. Of course that doesn't mean disagreement always destroys the possibility of discussion. My brother is an anarcho-primitivist which I think is absolutely retarded but we always have fun conversations/debates about it. Likewise my Dad is a minarchist and I make fun of him incessantly. We never get angry at each other though and relish the chance to talk politics with each other. The same is true with my liberal mom and ambiguously affiliated sister. So try to figure out if they have any possibility of changing their beliefs (I'd a priori give up on your mom though, teachers are literally the worst). If not, don't bother. If you think it's possible, start slow.

I'm not going to argue with you on economics, but just on level of practical reasoning.....

Don't you think the president has a board of very bright economists with him? These are people who have studied economics all their lives, some of them went to high end Universities, some have PhDs...and such people have always existed, and their ideas have been employed. What honestly makes you think that your ideology is the answer, the obvious solution to everything? If your ideas that constitute "economic competence" were so spectacular, than why aren't people using it or advocating it? I just find it extremely hard to believe that some fringe ideas floating on the periphery of political relevancy are the best and smartest things in the world like you often if not overtly, implicitly prop them up to be....

Ike, you're so much better and smarter than this... I'm sorry if that sounds condescending, but seriously, surely you must realize that literally everything you wrote here was either a) an appeal to authority, an obvious logical fallacy b) an appeal to popularity, another obvious fallacy. "Oh, they have degrees from respected universities and their ideas are currently adapted by the political establishment, whereas spinkos are fringe." What's your point? Need I point out ideas and practices that you accept as obviously moral and commonplace that were once adamantly rejected by the well educated elite/establishment and only adopted by "fringe" people? Or ideas that you probably accept as terribly reprehensible that were advocated by many of the prestigious establishment intellectuals of the country? Come on...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 6:04:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 5:54:22 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/4/2012 5:13:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 11:53:00 AM, socialpinko wrote:
My step-dad is a big Obama guy apparently but I don't think he has much semblance of economic/political understanding (especially considering that he pulled out the "people are bad, therefore we need a gov to make sure they're good" argument once before). I don't argue with him, I just leave the room whenever he starts talking politics. Of course that doesn't mean disagreement always destroys the possibility of discussion. My brother is an anarcho-primitivist which I think is absolutely retarded but we always have fun conversations/debates about it. Likewise my Dad is a minarchist and I make fun of him incessantly. We never get angry at each other though and relish the chance to talk politics with each other. The same is true with my liberal mom and ambiguously affiliated sister. So try to figure out if they have any possibility of changing their beliefs (I'd a priori give up on your mom though, teachers are literally the worst). If not, don't bother. If you think it's possible, start slow.

I'm not going to argue with you on economics, but just on level of practical reasoning.....

Don't you think the president has a board of very bright economists with him? These are people who have studied economics all their lives, some of them went to high end Universities, some have PhDs...and such people have always existed, and their ideas have been employed. What honestly makes you think that your ideology is the answer, the obvious solution to everything? If your ideas that constitute "economic competence" were so spectacular, than why aren't people using it or advocating it? I just find it extremely hard to believe that some fringe ideas floating on the periphery of political relevancy are the best and smartest things in the world like you often if not overtly, implicitly prop them up to be....

Ike, you're so much better and smarter than this... I'm sorry if that sounds condescending, but seriously, surely you must realize that literally everything you wrote here was either a) an appeal to authority, an obvious logical fallacy b) an appeal to popularity, another obvious fallacy. "Oh, they have degrees from respected universities and their ideas are currently adapted by the political establishment, whereas spinkos are fringe." What's your point? Need I point out ideas and practices that you accept as obviously moral and commonplace that were once adamantly rejected by the well educated elite/establishment and only adopted by "fringe" people? Or ideas that you probably accept as terribly reprehensible that were advocated by many of the prestigious establishment intellectuals of the country? Come on...

No, actually, I stand by what I said. I'm speaking on the level of what is practical, what is likely, and what just seems reasonable....and I just don't buy the idea that there's some big or obvious solution. If there was, people would be doing it. Libertarians and Anarchists aren't the only intelligent people; they don't have access to some special or exclusive knowledge....so I just don't buy it. If there was a perfectly logical and sensible solution to everything, after being almost 150 years into modern capitalism, I think we'd have it, and we'd be doing it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 6:09:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 6:04:45 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 5:54:22 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 11/4/2012 5:13:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 11:53:00 AM, socialpinko wrote:
My step-dad is a big Obama guy apparently but I don't think he has much semblance of economic/political understanding (especially considering that he pulled out the "people are bad, therefore we need a gov to make sure they're good" argument once before). I don't argue with him, I just leave the room whenever he starts talking politics. Of course that doesn't mean disagreement always destroys the possibility of discussion. My brother is an anarcho-primitivist which I think is absolutely retarded but we always have fun conversations/debates about it. Likewise my Dad is a minarchist and I make fun of him incessantly. We never get angry at each other though and relish the chance to talk politics with each other. The same is true with my liberal mom and ambiguously affiliated sister. So try to figure out if they have any possibility of changing their beliefs (I'd a priori give up on your mom though, teachers are literally the worst). If not, don't bother. If you think it's possible, start slow.

I'm not going to argue with you on economics, but just on level of practical reasoning.....

Don't you think the president has a board of very bright economists with him? These are people who have studied economics all their lives, some of them went to high end Universities, some have PhDs...and such people have always existed, and their ideas have been employed. What honestly makes you think that your ideology is the answer, the obvious solution to everything? If your ideas that constitute "economic competence" were so spectacular, than why aren't people using it or advocating it? I just find it extremely hard to believe that some fringe ideas floating on the periphery of political relevancy are the best and smartest things in the world like you often if not overtly, implicitly prop them up to be....

Ike, you're so much better and smarter than this... I'm sorry if that sounds condescending, but seriously, surely you must realize that literally everything you wrote here was either a) an appeal to authority, an obvious logical fallacy b) an appeal to popularity, another obvious fallacy. "Oh, they have degrees from respected universities and their ideas are currently adapted by the political establishment, whereas spinkos are fringe." What's your point? Need I point out ideas and practices that you accept as obviously moral and commonplace that were once adamantly rejected by the well educated elite/establishment and only adopted by "fringe" people? Or ideas that you probably accept as terribly reprehensible that were advocated by many of the prestigious establishment intellectuals of the country? Come on...

No, actually, I stand by what I said. I'm speaking on the level of what is practical, what is likely, and what just seems reasonable....and I just don't buy the idea that there's some big or obvious solution. If there was, people would be doing it. Libertarians and Anarchists aren't the only intelligent people; they don't have access to some special or exclusive knowledge....so I just don't buy it. If there was a perfectly logical and sensible solution to everything, after being almost 150 years into modern capitalism, I think we'd have it, and we'd be doing it.

You do realize these "big and obvious" solutions are ones that are presented from one's own personal ideology, correct? I know of Democrats that think they know the answer, I know of Republicans. Libertarians and anarchists are bound to have similar thoughts stemming from their own ideologies as well. To criticize only a couple groups is special pleading. And, in my opinion, VERY dishonest.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 6:11:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Jat:

to better clarify what I mean... Nothing is objectively better. No system is objectively right. Different policies achieve different feats and produce different consequences. But what we have is a constant and evolving balance of virtues. I think it's naive for some fringe political ideologies to barge in and decide they have the golden answer and somehow override everyone else's values with the self-professed superiority of their own. Lets be clear...this isn't an argument to perpetuate the status quo, but it is an argument intended to knock down this delusion of correctness that comes with ideologies in the minority.....almost treating their minority like its a special club with information no one else has.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault