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A grave problem regarding belief.

emospongebob527
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5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
DoubtingDave
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5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.

There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control. Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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5/2/2013 8:29:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote::
There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control. Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.

Haven't reviewed much of the free will debate, so sorry if I sounded like a total imbicle.
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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5/2/2013 8:29:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What type of free-will are you talking about? Just libertarian (philosophical sense) free-will? Or would compatiblism do? And why is free-will so important to libertarianism?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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5/2/2013 8:30:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.

There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control.

Nonsense :P

Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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5/2/2013 8:30:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How is determinism incompatible with libertarianism in your mind? You ought to figure out the answer to this first if you havent already before you can start reconciling/ changing your beliefs
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
DoubtingDave
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5/2/2013 8:35:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:30:17 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.

There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control.

Nonsense :P

Can you explain how? Haven't looked much in the free will debate obviously.


Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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5/2/2013 8:36:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:30:17 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.

There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control.

Nonsense :P

Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.

Free-will is mainly only relevant to moral responsibility but not other issues. Its absence is devastating to certain aspects of morality but clearly not other parts. A utilitarians value of happiness, for example, would not be troubled by determinism.

Why is free-will necessary for law and government? Clearly we prefer order to chaos and I don't see what free will has to do with that. Government serves, or attempts to serve, multiple functions not dependent on free-will. Retributive punishment is greatly undermined by hard determinism but we may still keep the justice system for purposes of rehabilitation, deterrence and segregation, which I think all focus should be put anyway.

I think it's a common tendency for people to overestimate the implications of hard determinism.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
DoubtingDave
Posts: 380
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5/2/2013 8:39:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:36:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:30:17 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.

There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control.

Nonsense :P

Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.

Free-will is mainly only relevant to moral responsibility but not other issues. Its absence is devastating to certain aspects of morality but clearly not other parts. A utilitarians value of happiness, for example, would not be troubled by determinism.

Why is free-will necessary for law and government? Clearly we prefer order to chaos and I don't see what free will has to do with that. Government serves, or attempts to serve, multiple functions not dependent on free-will. Retributive punishment is greatly undermined by hard determinism but we may still keep the justice system for purposes of rehabilitation, deterrence and segregation, which I think all focus should be put anyway.

I think it's a common tendency for people to overestimate the implications of hard determinism.

I think that is what I was trying to say. Without free will, we cannot be held morally accountable. But then, if we cannot be held morally accountable, how then can we have reasonable laws and punishment in society?
The Great Wall of Fail

"I have doubts that anti-semitism even exists" -GeoLaureate8

"Evolutionists think that people evolved from rocks" -Scotty

"And whats so bad about a Holy war? By Holy war, I mean a war which would aim to subdue others under Islam." -Ahmed.M

"The free market didn't create the massive wealth in the country, WW2 did." -malcomxy

"Independant federal regulators make our capitalist society possible." -Erik_Erikson
bossyburrito
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5/2/2013 8:40:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:39:35 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:36:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:30:17 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.

There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control.

Nonsense :P

Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.

Free-will is mainly only relevant to moral responsibility but not other issues. Its absence is devastating to certain aspects of morality but clearly not other parts. A utilitarians value of happiness, for example, would not be troubled by determinism.

Why is free-will necessary for law and government? Clearly we prefer order to chaos and I don't see what free will has to do with that. Government serves, or attempts to serve, multiple functions not dependent on free-will. Retributive punishment is greatly undermined by hard determinism but we may still keep the justice system for purposes of rehabilitation, deterrence and segregation, which I think all focus should be put anyway.

I think it's a common tendency for people to overestimate the implications of hard determinism.


I think that is what I was trying to say. Without free will, we cannot be held morally accountable. But then, if we cannot be held morally accountable, how then can we have reasonable laws and punishment in society?

You're assuming that punishment is the only possible end goal of a legal system.
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emospongebob527
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5/2/2013 8:40:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:29:27 PM, phantom wrote:
What type of free-will are you talking about? Just libertarian (philosophical sense) free-will? Or would compatiblism do? And why is free-will so important to libertarianism?

Because, free will is the ability of entities to make choices unconstrained by certain factors , Libertarianism is like free will, except in this case, government is the constraint that is holding it back. Maybe, a bad analogy but, you get the point. >_<
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
phantom
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5/2/2013 8:47:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:39:35 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:36:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:30:17 PM, phantom wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:28:28 PM, DoubtingDave wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:20:04 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
Greetings folks! I am speaking to everyone who will at one point, read these words (too cheesy?). Anyways, I am, and have been (for long as I can remember), a libertarian. I am a proponent of small government and view liberty as the highest political and moral end. But, for the past few months I have been digging deep into our greatest philosophical questions and have been examining them with an open mind. Now, just a few weeks ago I came across one of humanity's most controversial and captivating question, "Does free will exist." Now, as a libertarian, the answer was plain and simple, "Yes." or so I thought. Examining the ideas of Hard Incompatibilism and Hard Determinism has lead me to doubt the existence of free will. I am becoming very worried and doubtful of the idea of liberty, I need help/advice/suggestions. Please, no trolling or irrelevant rambling.

There are many different types of free will which you can review at http://en.wikipedia.org...

For those who do not believe in free will, there can be no justification for morality or any type of government, law, or order because everything that we do we will do without any control.

Nonsense :P

Therefore, there can be no punishment for crimes.

Free-will is mainly only relevant to moral responsibility but not other issues. Its absence is devastating to certain aspects of morality but clearly not other parts. A utilitarians value of happiness, for example, would not be troubled by determinism.

Why is free-will necessary for law and government? Clearly we prefer order to chaos and I don't see what free will has to do with that. Government serves, or attempts to serve, multiple functions not dependent on free-will. Retributive punishment is greatly undermined by hard determinism but we may still keep the justice system for purposes of rehabilitation, deterrence and segregation, which I think all focus should be put anyway.

I think it's a common tendency for people to overestimate the implications of hard determinism.


I think that is what I was trying to say. Without free will, we cannot be held morally accountable.

But there's more to morality than accountability, as explained.

But then, if we cannot be held morally accountable, how then can we have reasonable laws and punishment in society?

As explained, all aspects of government and law impacted by hard determinism do not undermine the justification of government and law as a whole, since it can exist without them. Retributive punishment is just one part of the justice system. I personally advocate a justice system that focuses almost only on rehabilitating criminals, deterring crime, segregating the harm doers from the rest of society and creating order. Those are all completely compatible with hard determinism.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
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5/2/2013 8:47:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:41:35 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
You're 25 already?

Boy, they grow up so fast...

I've been over this with CriticalThinkingMachine; my profile age, location, and name are false. They were left there after I copied all of Ore_Ele's profile information onto mine.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
phantom
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5/2/2013 8:55:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:40:53 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:29:27 PM, phantom wrote:
What type of free-will are you talking about? Just libertarian (philosophical sense) free-will? Or would compatiblism do? And why is free-will so important to libertarianism?

Because, free will is the ability of entities to make choices unconstrained by certain factors , Libertarianism is like free will, except in this case, government is the constraint that is holding it back. Maybe, a bad analogy but, you get the point. >_<

So why be a libertarian? Just for the free-will aspect? I don't think anyone would deny that individuals have some level of freedom. Freedom from government definitely provides a certain type of freedom to people, so I think you're better of just questioning what you want freedom for in the first place and what type of freedom it is you desire. Even if individuals had no free-will, some types of freedom would still exist, such as the absence oppressing laws. Clearly there's more freedom in being able to get married to whoever you wish than only being allowed to marry certain persons. I'm just not sure the philosophical notion of free-will is as important as the general concept of freedom itself, which isn't necessarily dependent on free will.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
philochristos
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5/2/2013 9:12:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:40:53 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:29:27 PM, phantom wrote:
What type of free-will are you talking about? Just libertarian (philosophical sense) free-will? Or would compatiblism do? And why is free-will so important to libertarianism?

Because, free will is the ability of entities to make choices unconstrained by certain factors , Libertarianism is like free will, except in this case, government is the constraint that is holding it back. Maybe, a bad analogy but, you get the point. >_<

But these are different kinds of restrictions. There's a difference between not being allowed to do something because of law and not being able to do something because of causal influences. Civil laws don't cause you to behave in certain ways in the same sense that your brain chemistry causes you to behave in certain ways according to determinism.

So liberty, when it comes to government, is not the same thing as liberty when it comes to the nature of the will. They are apples and oranges.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
RyuuKyuzo
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5/3/2013 3:02:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:47:15 PM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 5/2/2013 8:41:35 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
You're 25 already?

Boy, they grow up so fast...

I've been over this with CriticalThinkingMachine; my profile age, location, and name are false. They were left there after I copied all of Ore_Ele's profile information onto mine.

Thank God. For a second there I thought I had slipped into another coma and lost another decade of my life.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
FREEDO
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5/3/2013 3:07:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Free will is a practical abstraction. Just like ideology. So I don't really see a problem. Neither are literally true. But both have value.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
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5/3/2013 10:47:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thanks for all the advice, guys. :)
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana