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Being Single

R0b1Billion
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5/16/2013 9:55:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sooooo I have been single for a few weeks now and it is an amazing experience, to say the least. I was single last year but I, as my ex put it, "reeked of failure" and had no self-confidence. I went out and drank a bunch, but did not approach girls and had absolutely no success with them. Other than that episode, I have been in a relationship for about 7 or 8 years. Suffice to say, calling myself "rusty" at dating would be a tremendous understatement.

This time is different, however. I have had to re-learn how to talk to girls. I'm like Steve Carell out of Crazy, Stupid Love right now - from zero to hero with the ladies. My woman dumped me for somebody else a couple months back, and I didn't really date right away because I was still caught up in the drama, but when I did it was not pretty. I approached a girl at the bar three weeks ago and told her she was beautiful and asked her to dance: "no thanks!" Ouch. I had, at least, overcome my fear of approaching them, but I realized that it's not enough just to approach them, I have to keep it fun and interesting once I do. Simply walking up to a stranger and offering her the ultimatum to dance is not that!

Since then I have been a machine. I've been flirting heavily with customers at work. I came down off stage at one of my gigs and told this girl she was beautiful, and she told me she is going to start following my band. I went to the club this weekend and approached this chick who wouldn't mingle with the crowd (just sitting at a table on the high floor), and I was playing with her hair about two minutes into the conversation, completely working her like a piece of soft clay. One of the hotass hair-dressers down the hall to where I work keeps coming in to see me...The change I went through in a week's time simply because I had the nerve to try (and fail, the first time) to approach beautiful women is stark, and it is truly exciting.

Is anybody else single and having to deal with "the approach?" I would like to hear your success and failure stories. Tips especially. Just like Crazy, Stupid Love I have a wing-man who is truly sent by God to help me. He will approach any woman at any given time and say something light-hearted to get her giggling, totally breaking the ice before it ever starts to form. He's been taking me under his wing and teaching me the ropes. For instance, he illuminated to me the fact that they will give you openings - but you have to watch for them! Pay attention and be ready for them. Not a half hour after he told me this he did exactly that with this amazingly hot chick who gave him an opening I wouldn't have ever noticed and the next thing I know she's talking to us instead of her friends. There are hot chicks out there, people, and they are just waiting for you to make your move. My mentor tells me that there are SO many hot women out there who simply lack a bit of self-confidence and are just waiting for somebody to tell them they are pretty...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
leojm
Posts: 1,825
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5/17/2013 4:34:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, I'm single. It's not that bad. I mean why so quick to get into a relationship and ending up being dumped? If I'm going to date someone, it's going to be someone I see my self with. I'm not going to date/marry someone I can live with, but instead date/marry someone I can't live without.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/17/2013 4:40:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Wise words
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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5/17/2013 9:32:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Leo:
I'm not jumping into any relationship. I am simply playing the game and having fun. On my days off from work, I get severely depressed, for obvious reasons (not a great time for me right now). But going out and hitting on chicks gives me energy. It makes me happy. It reinforces my self-confidence and reminds me that there are other fish in the sea, that I can and will have my own queen someday, and I am good enough to win over a really great chick. I've tried the Plenty of Fish scene - what a joke! Has anyone else done that? In my area, there are three types of chicks on there:
1) Desperate, gold-digging nurses who want a guy to relieve them of their stressful lifestyle. They won't talk to you without a flashy profession listed.
2) Country girls looking for their "country boy." They want big trucks, lots of gasoline-powered toys, and a healthy life-style of up-nort country livin.
3) Plenty of Whales. The amount of fat chicks on that site is overwhelming, and they aren't even courteous enough to list "a few extra pounds" on their profile to be autofiltered out (I am an exercise freak).

So even online dating is out for me; I don't have money and I hate gasoline-powered devices (I am a minimalist and I'd rather be using my own muscle-power, not destroying the environment with roads and fossil fuels - not to mention how dangerous they are!). Becoming a hermit and sitting inside is not an option, and if I'm going out I better be approaching them or else they aren't just going to walk up to me!

Smith:
My boss actually likes it when I "play" with the customers. All that matters is that they spend $$ and come back, and it's actually a fairly good sales technique. Her brother, who is 60-70 something, is another mentor of mine. This guy can say anything to anyone at any given time. I just sit there in awe... there is this bombshell blonde, completely unapproachable, who walks by our place every day. He went right out there and got her laughing in 2.2 seconds. I have a lot to learn! The guys in the video (2nd post in the thread) are sort of the same way; they have learned that if you are willing to put the work in, handle rejection, and use your creativity, you can have lots of fun with girls! The interesting part is that many people CAN do it but just don't ever realize it because they won't try. I was one of those people up until recently. The guys in the video are a step above me. My wingman gave me the three stages of a player:
1) Can only handle when girls approach you.
2) Takes advantage of subtle cues/opportunities when they are provided.
3) Creates opportunities before they are given.

I am in stage 2. I have to wait until I am given "the eye" or some other cue before I can move in. The bar scene is good for this, because the cues are abundant. When I get comfortable at the bar, I can move into the real world where chicks are not bothering to give me a cue.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Prodigenius
Posts: 209
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5/17/2013 9:43:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I enjoyed reading the first word of your depressing post. :)

I struggled to enjoy any word after that though. :)
Live for the present, for it is a gift.

I surveyed 100 women and asked them what shampoo they used when showering, 98 of them said: How the hell did you get in here?
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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5/17/2013 6:32:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Protip: complimenting girls' feet is a great way to get your shot in without crossing "the line." You can't tell a girl she has great titsNass but you can get away with a compliment of her feet. I told a girl today at work she had "pretty toes" and it probably would have gotten me somewhere if she wasn't married :P I didn't notice the rock until afterwards...

I started wondering afterwards what the utility of hitting on married women is. I don't always notice the wedding ring... I reflected on how I lost my woman to a man who puts on a lot of... verbal honey if you will... and wondered how that would affect her later on. Did she go home and ask her man how he liked her feet just to get a "meh" and start the same cycle I went through? Maybe he was smarter than I was and also told her she had beautiful feet. I hope he was smarter than I was, I don't want to spend my time on this planet making things harder for others. Perhaps that's a dimension I have neglected to see - how my actions (i.e., telling strange women how beautiful they are) really affect the people around me. In theory, I'm just giving compliments - that should be positive! But is it really? Am I providing temptation and only making things harder for the women I lead on? Like I said I'm not taking them home or promising them anything (at least I haven't yet) so am I in the moral clear? My wingman says that "if I don't do it to them, they'll do it to me" - indicating that if I don't play the game, I will fall victim to it. Indeed, it's hard seeing attractive women always falling for dumbasses and macho a-holes while nice guys get the boot.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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5/17/2013 7:36:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 6:32:28 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Protip: complimenting girls' feet is a great way to get your shot in without crossing "the line." You can't tell a girl she has great titsNass but you can get away with a compliment of her feet. I told a girl today at work she had "pretty toes" and it probably would have gotten me somewhere if she wasn't married :P I didn't notice the rock until afterwards...

I started wondering afterwards what the utility of hitting on married women is. I don't always notice the wedding ring... I reflected on how I lost my woman to a man who puts on a lot of... verbal honey if you will... and wondered how that would affect her later on. Did she go home and ask her man how he liked her feet just to get a "meh" and start the same cycle I went through? Maybe he was smarter than I was and also told her she had beautiful feet. I hope he was smarter than I was, I don't want to spend my time on this planet making things harder for others. Perhaps that's a dimension I have neglected to see - how my actions (i.e., telling strange women how beautiful they are) really affect the people around me. In theory, I'm just giving compliments - that should be positive! But is it really? Am I providing temptation and only making things harder for the women I lead on? Like I said I'm not taking them home or promising them anything (at least I haven't yet) so am I in the moral clear? My wingman says that "if I don't do it to them, they'll do it to me" - indicating that if I don't play the game, I will fall victim to it. Indeed, it's hard seeing attractive women always falling for dumbasses and macho a-holes while nice guys get the boot.

In a manner of speaking, your mentor is correct. Power, broadly defined, is the open option to exercise a measure of control over your environment. Insofar as people seek to do anything, they will necessarily seek to shape their environments according to whatever they regard as their advantage. In other words, all human experience is immediately an exposure to power, whether in the form of its use or of subjection to it. In this sense, it is certainly true that, if one does not "play the game", someone else will take your place.

What I find more interesting, however, is the ad hoc justification you append to the end. If you truly feel so exhilarated flirting with strangers--if, really, it provides you with much-needed reassurance--and if, as you acknowledge, playing the game is not merely inevitably, but pleasurable, I find myself wondering who, in this game, would be the "nice guy". Is analogizing a beautiful girl to a piece of clay, ready to be worked by able hands, really so virtuous? Is anyone so virtuous that they would sweep a woman off her feet merely for her own sake? I'm sure, if anyone did think in such a way, their partners would not be so happy to learn about this charity.

Don't mistake me, though: I'm not chastising. On the contrary, I'm curious why, knowing the nature both of the game and of human relationships, you feel you must muddy the waters with retrospective moralizing. Romance is a function of reciprocal interest, yet I suspect anyone would be remiss to suggest that this is an unethical arrangement, or that "true" romance ought to include elements of altruism. If this is so, why should we insist on doing precisely this when our real motive, beyond the remnants of hesitation (dressed in the finest moral pretenses, of course), is pursuit of interest? The so-called "nice guys", often content to remain captured in the negative feedback loops of their own bitterness and self-pity, dress in these same pretenses their own envy and resentment at being too impotent to go out and pursue the women they want. It's much easier, after all, to play the victim than to remedy internal weaknesses. These are the same "nice guys", it may be helpful to remember, who expect affection and, often, sexual reciprocation, as the price of their friendship, as if it is deserved or obligatory. I imagine few would find that sort of reasoning genuinely nice.

You, on the other hand--finding success in your endeavors and overcoming your slump--have, on my estimation, very little need for the disguise. Just as others do, you pursue your advantage. I think you would benefit from pursuing it honestly, carefully, and without regret, rather than keeping at your side the tools of the powerless and resentful. Certainly, someone forward about their intentions, willing to enjoy flirtation and spread positivity, is superior both to the manipulative not-so-nice guy and to the hesitant perpetuators of self-delusion. If, as you say, new difficulties are introduced into the life of the women you engage with, is it really better to let them live their life without the awareness of their position? Or is it not better, perhaps, not only to spread joy, but to open their minds to the reality of their stagnant relationships, their inattentive partners, and the possibility of something better? If you do care about them, as humans living their lives, constraining your flirting merely to avoid upsetting an imagined equilibrium--a likely disadvantageous equilibrium, if such a thing exists--may be excessively meek. Trying to retreat from making waves is not always a mark of virtue.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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5/17/2013 9:03:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In a manner of speaking, your mentor is correct. Power, broadly defined, is the open option to exercise a measure of control over your environment. Insofar as people seek to do anything, they will necessarily seek to shape their environments according to whatever they regard as their advantage. In other words, all human experience is immediately an exposure to power, whether in the form of its use or of subjection to it. In this sense, it is certainly true that, if one does not "play the game", someone else will take your place.

That makes me feel badly. I find comfort in humility and fortitude, virtues which demand constraint of action based on the faith that one will be better off in a charitable function in society. Seeking immediate advantage over others should be, at least in theory, inferior to the strategy of acting charitable and having faith that that charity will be indirectly reciprocated back. One can fulfill this paradigm through the concept of heaven, or one can observe how positive moral action (e.g., charity, humility, selflessness, etc.) builds character and strength and, amid all the chaos that we cannot capture in formula, we actually end up in a superior position than if we had directly tried to better ourselves through the application of power.

What I find more interesting, however, is the ad hoc justification you append to the end. If you truly feel so exhilarated flirting with strangers--if, really, it provides you with much-needed reassurance--and if, as you acknowledge, playing the game is not merely inevitably, but pleasurable, I find myself wondering who, in this game, would be the "nice guy". Is analogizing a beautiful girl to a piece of clay, ready to be worked by able hands, really so virtuous? Is anyone so virtuous that they would sweep a woman off her feet merely for her own sake? I'm sure, if anyone did think in such a way, their partners would not be so happy to learn about this charity.

Women do like to be swept off their feet and "wooed." Chivalry, my good man. Consider an ancient setting, with a noble knight taking a beautiful woman's hand in his, kissing it, and telling her about her features poetically. Would anyone criticize this romanticism as non-virtuous? But of course, you are merely playing devil's advocate up until this point...

Don't mistake me, though: I'm not chastising. On the contrary, I'm curious why, knowing the nature both of the game and of human relationships, you feel you must muddy the waters with retrospective moralizing.

Now there is the Cody I know and love!

Romance is a function of reciprocal interest, yet I suspect anyone would be remiss to suggest that this is an unethical arrangement, or that "true" romance ought to include elements of altruism. If this is so, why should we insist on doing precisely this when our real motive, beyond the remnants of hesitation (dressed in the finest moral pretenses, of course), is pursuit of interest?

Morality is, perhaps, the ultimate "pursuit of interest." Instead of focusing on narrow goals right in front of your face, achieved selfishly, one continually applies fortitude and humility to position society in such a way that greater goals be achieved in the long-run. These goals cannot be arbitrarily defined... for instance, on Plenty of Fish, lots of chicks want "country boys" with trucks. Instead of small, arbitrary goals, they ought to relax these interests and have faith that there are more objective goals which they cannot hope to define or directly chase, but which will satisfy them more. This is what the virtue of faith is about: recognizing that we have not even the ability to know what is truly good for us!

The so-called "nice guys", often content to remain captured in the negative feedback loops of their own bitterness and self-pity, dress in these same pretenses their own envy and resentment at being too impotent to go out and pursue the women they want. It's much easier, after all, to play the victim than to remedy internal weaknesses. These are the same "nice guys", it may be helpful to remember, who expect affection and, often, sexual reciprocation, as the price of their friendship, as if it is deserved or obligatory. I imagine few would find that sort of reasoning genuinely nice.

Yes, "nice guys" are impotent and deserve what they get. I have always been a nice guy... scared to approach women, justifying my own inaction any way I could. I can remember as far back as 1990, being in fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, continually failing to tell girls how I felt. Standing next to the wall at dances, afraid to enter and ask a girl for her hand. Terrified by rejection and my possible inability to conjure up the right words to stroke the affections of a pretty lass. I remember always expecting them to make a move on me, as if I was actually the prize! How twisted pride can truly be!

You, on the other hand--finding success in your endeavors and overcoming your slump--have, on my estimation, very little need for the disguise. Just as others do, you pursue your advantage. I think you would benefit from pursuing it honestly, carefully, and without regret, rather than keeping at your side the tools of the powerless and resentful.

Well that would outline the meat of the discussion up until this point: is it virtuous or not to refrain from playing the game? If it is done through fear of rejection, it is certainly negative, but if the idea is fidelity, we have a much different situation. Nice guys suffer from intertwining the two, no doubt, and are hurt by it. Am I practicing fidelity for my next partner by not chasing women, so I can later tell my next GF I waited for her patiently? That is justification I have a big problem with, because it allows me to lethargically avoid putting out the energy and creativity to woo girls by wrapping it in false virtue. You mentioned before that I would not want to admit to my inevitable future lover that I was molding girls like "clay," which was perhaps a crude analogy, but I would surmise that this woman would have accepted many a compliment from other men and internalized it just the same, justifying my actions. What is important is that I do not continue such fraternization after I have begun dating her.

Certainly, someone forward about their intentions, willing to enjoy flirtation and spread positivity, is superior both to the manipulative not-so-nice guy and to the hesitant perpetuators of self-delusion. If, as you say, new difficulties are introduced into the life of the women you engage with, is it really better to let them live their life without the awareness of their position? Or is it not better, perhaps, not only to spread joy, but to open their minds to the reality of their stagnant relationships, their inattentive partners, and the possibility of something better? If you do care about them, as humans living their lives, constraining your flirting merely to avoid upsetting an imagined equilibrium--a likely disadvantageous equilibrium, if such a thing exists--may be excessively meek. Trying to retreat from making waves is not always a mark of virtue.

Eloquently put, and I will commit to this logic going forward. Is this what I want to hear? Or what I need to hear? I am leery of intellectual justification that coincides with my emotional tendencies, although I must admit I am actually defeating my emotional tendencies - namely sloth - by putting in the work I am to woo women. Ambition works the same way, however, and I find that negative... diligence mixed with greed. Is this diligence mixed with lust? Sexual ambition? More specifically: are the women I hit on and woo better off than they would have been if I had kept my lusting mouth shut? I tell myself they are better off... I hope I am right!
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
leojm
Posts: 1,825
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5/18/2013 12:25:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 9:32:06 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Leo:
I'm not jumping into any relationship. I am simply playing the game and having fun. On my days off from work, I get severely depressed, for obvious reasons (not a great time for me right now). But going out and hitting on chicks gives me energy. It makes me happy. It reinforces my self-confidence and reminds me that there are other fish in the sea, that I can and will have my own queen someday, and I am good enough to win over a really great chick. I've tried the Plenty of Fish scene - what a joke! Has anyone else done that? In my area, there are three types of chicks on there:
1) Desperate, gold-digging nurses who want a guy to relieve them of their stressful lifestyle. They won't talk to you without a flashy profession listed.
2) Country girls looking for their "country boy." They want big trucks, lots of gasoline-powered toys, and a healthy life-style of up-nort country livin.
3) Plenty of Whales. The amount of fat chicks on that site is overwhelming, and they aren't even courteous enough to list "a few extra pounds" on their profile to be autofiltered out (I am an exercise freak).

So even online dating is out for me; I don't have money and I hate gasoline-powered devices (I am a minimalist and I'd rather be using my own muscle-power, not destroying the environment with roads and fossil fuels - not to mention how dangerous they are!). Becoming a hermit and sitting inside is not an option, and if I'm going out I better be approaching them or else they aren't just going to walk up to me!

Smith:
My boss actually likes it when I "play" with the customers. All that matters is that they spend $$ and come back, and it's actually a fairly good sales technique. Her brother, who is 60-70 something, is another mentor of mine. This guy can say anything to anyone at any given time. I just sit there in awe... there is this bombshell blonde, completely unapproachable, who walks by our place every day. He went right out there and got her laughing in 2.2 seconds. I have a lot to learn! The guys in the video (2nd post in the thread) are sort of the same way; they have learned that if you are willing to put the work in, handle rejection, and use your creativity, you can have lots of fun with girls! The interesting part is that many people CAN do it but just don't ever realize it because they won't try. I was one of those people up until recently. The guys in the video are a step above me. My wingman gave me the three stages of a player:
1) Can only handle when girls approach you.
2) Takes advantage of subtle cues/opportunities when they are provided.
3) Creates opportunities before they are given.

I am in stage 2. I have to wait until I am given "the eye" or some other cue before I can move in. The bar scene is good for this, because the cues are abundant. When I get comfortable at the bar, I can move into the real world where chicks are not bothering to give me a cue.

Well, you do what you think is right.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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5/18/2013 1:18:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 9:03:54 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
In a manner of speaking, your mentor is correct. Power, broadly defined, is the open option to exercise a measure of control over your environment. Insofar as people seek to do anything, they will necessarily seek to shape their environments according to whatever they regard as their advantage. In other words, all human experience is immediately an exposure to power, whether in the form of its use or of subjection to it. In this sense, it is certainly true that, if one does not "play the game", someone else will take your place.

That makes me feel badly. I find comfort in humility and fortitude, virtues which demand constraint of action based on the faith that one will be better off in a charitable function in society. Seeking immediate advantage over others should be, at least in theory, inferior to the strategy of acting charitable and having faith that that charity will be indirectly reciprocated back. One can fulfill this paradigm through the concept of heaven, or one can observe how positive moral action (e.g., charity, humility, selflessness, etc.) builds character and strength and, amid all the chaos that we cannot capture in formula, we actually end up in a superior position than if we had directly tried to better ourselves through the application of power.

The idea is that there is really no action which is not an exercise of power. In their uses of power, people are differentiated by degree, not by kind. What may differentiate you from the "average" person is not that you avoid power, but that you instrumentalize it for utilitarian reasons (this is not to say, however, that this lofty ethic of yours couldn't only be some kind of rationalization). I confess a curiosity about where you would be if you did not find comfort--perhaps a kind of self-serving pleasure?--in behaving after a fashion you deem virtuous. Few cases come to mind of individuals who are villains in their own autobiographical narratives, and I hope I don't presume too much to estimate the same of you. I should think that, were your values other than what they are, you would doubtlessly invent a story, if not to justify yourself, then to excuse yourself from the weight of cognitive dissonance.

More curious still is the nature of the respective virtues, particularly the manner of their cooperation. Your commitment to charity, for instance, requires as an article of faith some form of reciprocation. I wonder what you would be forced to conclude if your benevolence went unappreciated or, worse yet, thrown in your face. Or if, since the world is unlike a story, those whose ambitions you view as petty or limited triumph without regret or hindrance, often at the expense of the victims crushed underneath. In much the same way the bloated financial sector is allowed to run free out of fear--fear of losing campaign contributions, of losing political capital, of economic ruin--I wonder what sorts of evils might be permitted in the service of virtue, or, more pertinently, the greater good. Would landmark environmental reform drive you to support a politician who wins support by promising favorable legislation to corrupt teacher lobbies or appearing tough on crime by recommending harsher penalties or securing more contracts for private prisons? If you knew that information gained was reliable--that it would save lives--would you condemn a criminal to horrible, damaging tortures to extract that information? Virtue is quite strong until, as you understand, it is confronted by ambiguity. There is a term in chess--Zugzwang--which denotes a forced move whereby all of the options result in painful loss. When confronted by "necessity"--forced to impose suffering--it is amusing to see not merely how those strong of character flounder and betray themselves, but, further, how they manage to assemble a lovely story to retrofit their code with the reality of their decision-making.

What I find more interesting, however, is the ad hoc justification you append to the end. If you truly feel so exhilarated flirting with strangers--if, really, it provides you with much-needed reassurance--and if, as you acknowledge, playing the game is not merely inevitably, but pleasurable, I find myself wondering who, in this game, would be the "nice guy". Is analogizing a beautiful girl to a piece of clay, ready to be worked by able hands, really so virtuous? Is anyone so virtuous that they would sweep a woman off her feet merely for her own sake? I'm sure, if anyone did think in such a way, their partners would not be so happy to learn about this charity.

Women do like to be swept off their feet and "wooed." Chivalry, my good man. Consider an ancient setting, with a noble knight taking a beautiful woman's hand in his, kissing it, and telling her about her features poetically. Would anyone criticize this romanticism as non-virtuous? But of course, you are merely playing devil's advocate up until this point...

How long would the fair maiden remain with the knight, do you suppose, if it was revealed to her that the knight wooed her only as a charitable service--to make her happy--and not out of any personal interest in the lady?

Don't mistake me, though: I'm not chastising. On the contrary, I'm curious why, knowing the nature both of the game and of human relationships, you feel you must muddy the waters with retrospective moralizing.

Now there is the Cody I know and love!

Romance is a function of reciprocal interest, yet I suspect anyone would be remiss to suggest that this is an unethical arrangement, or that "true" romance ought to include elements of altruism. If this is so, why should we insist on doing precisely this when our real motive, beyond the remnants of hesitation (dressed in the finest moral pretenses, of course), is pursuit of interest?

Morality is, perhaps, the ultimate "pursuit of interest." Instead of focusing on narrow goals right in front of your face, achieved selfishly, one continually applies fortitude and humility to position society in such a way that greater goals be achieved in the long-run. These goals cannot be arbitrarily defined... for instance, on Plenty of Fish, lots of chicks want "country boys" with trucks. Instead of small, arbitrary goals, they ought to relax these interests and have faith that there are more objective goals which they cannot hope to define or directly chase, but which will satisfy them more. This is what the virtue of faith is about: recognizing that we have not even the ability to know what is truly good for us!

It is a most interesting arrangement you ask people to accept. You ask them to give up their immediate goals, which are "selfish" and "arbitrary"--fine words for making people feel guilty, or for giving a speech to an applauding crowd--and to give themselves up entirely to goals which, while both undefinable and unpursuable, will, you promise, nevertheless be more satisfying (though one might inquire whether personal satisfaction is not among the immediate and "arbitrary" goals you dismiss, and, if so, whether you aren't really among those content to pursue what is advantageous, regardless of how nobly that advantage is defined).

More interestingly, if these goals cannot be defined by their pursuers, I wonder who will define them, or, more appropriately, in whom the multitude's collective faith ought to be placed. Who, I wonder, is worthy to lead, to command people's pursuits, to hand down their interests? And is it only on this individual's authority that these goals are "greater", and that these people should therefore subject themselves to their realization? If people are unfit to decide what is in their own interest, I wonder on what basis, or on whose authority, the interest of the entire species may be defined.
Cody_Franklin
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5/18/2013 1:18:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 9:03:54 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
The so-called "nice guys", often content to remain captured in the negative feedback loops of their own bitterness and self-pity, dress in these same pretenses their own envy and resentment at being too impotent to go out and pursue the women they want. It's much easier, after all, to play the victim than to remedy internal weaknesses. These are the same "nice guys", it may be helpful to remember, who expect affection and, often, sexual reciprocation, as the price of their friendship, as if it is deserved or obligatory. I imagine few would find that sort of reasoning genuinely nice.

Yes, "nice guys" are impotent and deserve what they get. I have always been a nice guy... scared to approach women, justifying my own inaction any way I could. I can remember as far back as 1990, being in fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, continually failing to tell girls how I felt. Standing next to the wall at dances, afraid to enter and ask a girl for her hand. Terrified by rejection and my possible inability to conjure up the right words to stroke the affections of a pretty lass. I remember always expecting them to make a move on me, as if I was actually the prize! How twisted pride can truly be!

How twisted indeed. I wonder, do you think yourself immune to the pitfalls of vice--you remark, after all, that your excitement in chasing and flirting with women stems from the confidence and satisfaction of your successes--or do you merely define this vice in such a way that it captures only what you regard as evil? It would be a shame if your understanding of pride was "the thing such that the negative repercussions I associate with excessive self-confidence obtain", since it would leave open the possibility that what you understand as "pride" would not be so-identified if it was successful, since your understanding, defined by consequences, rather than behaviors, would not capture vanity if it did not carry negative repercussions. This is to say, if by "pride" you only understand "whatever behavior has these bad repercussions", it is trivial to say "Pride has bad results", since the predicate is precisely how you've defined the subject. Vice versa for the "virtues", I'm afraid.

You, on the other hand--finding success in your endeavors and overcoming your slump--have, on my estimation, very little need for the disguise. Just as others do, you pursue your advantage. I think you would benefit from pursuing it honestly, carefully, and without regret, rather than keeping at your side the tools of the powerless and resentful.

Well that would outline the meat of the discussion up until this point: is it virtuous or not to refrain from playing the game? If it is done through fear of rejection, it is certainly negative, but if the idea is fidelity, we have a much different situation. Nice guys suffer from intertwining the two, no doubt, and are hurt by it. Am I practicing fidelity for my next partner by not chasing women, so I can later tell my next GF I waited for her patiently? That is justification I have a big problem with, because it allows me to lethargically avoid putting out the energy and creativity to woo girls by wrapping it in false virtue. You mentioned before that I would not want to admit to my inevitable future lover that I was molding girls like "clay," which was perhaps a crude analogy, but I would surmise that this woman would have accepted many a compliment from other men and internalized it just the same, justifying my actions. What is important is that I do not continue such fraternization after I have begun dating her.

My reply is that the entire discussion of virtue is a pretense for indulging your immediate passions. If you successes brought you no pleasure whatsoever--if they did nothing to help your confidence, if you felt no hints of connection--it is unlikely that you would, to your own emotional and psychological detriment, continue to engage in these activities merely because you thought them ethical. Perhaps I am wrong--only you can say, and perhaps even this is inaccurate--but you should know that you would be one of the rare few, perhaps the first, to make naked morality not only your foremost concern, but also a genuine concern, that is, a concern not fabricated to rationalize the pursuit of your interests. I have never met someone who would continue to live "ethically" if they derived absolutely no pleasure for it, and I would applaud if you were revealed as the first.

Certainly, someone forward about their intentions, willing to enjoy flirtation and spread positivity, is superior both to the manipulative not-so-nice guy and to the hesitant perpetuators of self-delusion. If, as you say, new difficulties are introduced into the life of the women you engage with, is it really better to let them live their life without the awareness of their position? Or is it not better, perhaps, not only to spread joy, but to open their minds to the reality of their stagnant relationships, their inattentive partners, and the possibility of something better? If you do care about them, as humans living their lives, constraining your flirting merely to avoid upsetting an imagined equilibrium--a likely disadvantageous equilibrium, if such a thing exists--may be excessively meek. Trying to retreat from making waves is not always a mark of virtue.

Eloquently put, and I will commit to this logic going forward. Is this what I want to hear? Or what I need to hear? I am leery of intellectual justification that coincides with my emotional tendencies, although I must admit I am actually defeating my emotional tendencies - namely sloth - by putting in the work I am to woo women.

It is often wise to be cautious; I have nothing to gain or lose by this conversation, however, so your caution may be misplaced.

Ambition works the same way, however, and I find that negative... diligence mixed with greed. Is this diligence mixed with lust? Sexual ambition? More specifically: are the women I hit on and woo better off than they would have been if I had kept my lusting mouth shut? I tell myself they are better off... I hope I am right!

Suppose you took no comfort either in a woman's company or in the knowledge that your companionship made her better off. You may even suppose, if you like, that it caused you significant emotional distress. What reason would you have, I wonder, for remaining with her? Importantly, what reason has she for remaining with you if you are her romantic companion only because it is virtuous, or because it is a moral obligation?
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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5/22/2013 11:28:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I mean, I can understand the 'exuberance' one must feel after coming out of a demolishing relationship, but I can't get sympethise with your rebound route of almost commodifying the girls.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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5/22/2013 12:01:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am also very rusty at being single right now...

Over the past 5 years I've been single for a grand total of about 5 months. Now I've been single for the past couple of months and I haven't gotten anywhere. I don't really know why. It might be the "approach" as you put it. Or maybe I'm just sick of flirting and dating at this point. (Probably a good assessment actually.)

I figure I'll get back into it eventually but as of now I've been spending a lot of time alone, just some good ol' me time. I don't know when I'll really start hitting the scene again to be honest.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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5/22/2013 1:09:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 11:28:11 AM, Cermank wrote:
I mean, I can understand the 'exuberance' one must feel after coming out of a demolishing relationship, but I can't get sympethise with your rebound route of almost commodifying the girls.

Everyone likes to be a little objectified--after all, what good is sexuality if one can't revel in the feeling of being an object of desire? The mind must of course have some image to contemplate, and I don't think it does any good to deny Rob this valuable life experience. He's rediscovering his power and possibilities, and it offers a joy and a confidence--not only to himself, but to those girls he engages--which cannot be found in those periodic bouts of severe depression in which Rob remarks he finds himself.
Cermank
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5/22/2013 1:27:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 1:09:37 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/22/2013 11:28:11 AM, Cermank wrote:
I mean, I can understand the 'exuberance' one must feel after coming out of a demolishing relationship, but I can't get sympethise with your rebound route of almost commodifying the girls.

Everyone likes to be a little objectified--after all, what good is sexuality if one can't revel in the feeling of being an object of desire? The mind must of course have some image to contemplate, and I don't think it does any good to deny Rob this valuable life experience. He's rediscovering his power and possibilities, and it offers a joy and a confidence--not only to himself, but to those girls he engages--which cannot be found in those periodic bouts of severe depression in which Rob remarks he finds himself.

I think a distinction can be made between objectification of a person that is inharent in any socetal interaction, and commodification for the sole purpose of personal gratification. The latter is demeaning to the individual you are interacting with. Coming up with an algorithm to 'get someone to like you' with no intention of going further, an exercise whose sole purpose is to stroke your ego, is insulting to the person you are interacting with.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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5/22/2013 1:34:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 1:27:21 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/22/2013 1:09:37 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/22/2013 11:28:11 AM, Cermank wrote:
I mean, I can understand the 'exuberance' one must feel after coming out of a demolishing relationship, but I can't get sympethise with your rebound route of almost commodifying the girls.

Everyone likes to be a little objectified--after all, what good is sexuality if one can't revel in the feeling of being an object of desire? The mind must of course have some image to contemplate, and I don't think it does any good to deny Rob this valuable life experience. He's rediscovering his power and possibilities, and it offers a joy and a confidence--not only to himself, but to those girls he engages--which cannot be found in those periodic bouts of severe depression in which Rob remarks he finds himself.

I think a distinction can be made between objectification of a person that is inharent in any socetal interaction, and commodification for the sole purpose of personal gratification.

All social interactions are undertaken for the purpose of personal gratification. Relationships of all kinds are founded on reciprocal interest, not on charity.

The latter is demeaning to the individual you are interacting with. Coming up with an algorithm to 'get someone to like you' with no intention of going further, an exercise whose sole purpose is to stroke your ego, is insulting to the person you are interacting with.

Really? Flirting innocently with someone--with no intention of escalation, and done because it makes one feel nice--is insulting to the flirtee? That sounds much more like a matter of personal preference than a moral law of human romance.

More to the point, Rob and I have already discussed his positive intentions concerning the happiness and life situations of those with whom he interacts. This renders your intrusion neither timely nor relevant.
TheElderScroll
Posts: 643
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5/22/2013 1:43:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well....I have been a single for years now....and if history indeed repeats itself, i guess I would be a single for a long time....
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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5/22/2013 2:02:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
All right dude. Didn't realise the topic was discussed beyond the scope of further discussion. Wanted to discuss further, but nevermind :-)
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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5/22/2013 5:38:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The girls I hit on all seem to enjoy it. I mean it's one thing to lie to girls and manipulate them into the sack, but that's not my prerogative. On the contrary, I am just as at-risk of being emotionally damaged by a physical dead-end relationship as the girl is. The moment I get physical with a girl I can't stop thinking about her, and then I have to worry about who she's with, why she isn't calling, etc. Perhaps I am not representing my position accurately... I want a girl of the highest caliber. Looks are not enough... I need a strong mind, a strong body, talent, responsibility, and most importantly fidelity. When I meet said woman, I'm not going to secure her if I have a long and colorful history of womanizing, and I'm sure she's going to ask. It's not enough just to avoid the question or deny that I've been physical with other girls, I will have to look her in the eye and tell her that, despite the fact that my ex had physical relationships with other guys while she was dating me, I never broke and I still haven't had another physical relationship since I started dating her almost a year ago. Hell, I haven't even bought a girl a drink... I simply see someone who has potential, and I make my move. It's all word-play. They like the admiration, I get some practice in, and we both leave separately feeling like we had more enjoyment out of the night than if we simply exchanged tentative glances all night across the bar. Sure, there's probably girls out there expecting me to show up again to go from there, but expectation is the root of all heartbreak and it's not my fault they don't read Shakespeare -_-
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
leojm
Posts: 1,825
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5/23/2013 8:14:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/22/2013 5:38:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
The girls I hit on all seem to enjoy it. I mean it's one thing to lie to girls and manipulate them into the sack, but that's not my prerogative. On the contrary, I am just as at-risk of being emotionally damaged by a physical dead-end relationship as the girl is. The moment I get physical with a girl I can't stop thinking about her, and then I have to worry about who she's with, why she isn't calling, etc. Perhaps I am not representing my position accurately... I want a girl of the highest caliber. Looks are not enough... I need a strong mind, a strong body, talent, responsibility, and most importantly fidelity. When I meet said woman, I'm not going to secure her if I have a long and colorful history of womanizing, and I'm sure she's going to ask. It's not enough just to avoid the question or deny that I've been physical with other girls, I will have to look her in the eye and tell her that, despite the fact that my ex had physical relationships with other guys while she was dating me, I never broke and I still haven't had another physical relationship since I started dating her almost a year ago. Hell, I haven't even bought a girl a drink... I simply see someone who has potential, and I make my move. It's all word-play. They like the admiration, I get some practice in, and we both leave separately feeling like we had more enjoyment out of the night than if we simply exchanged tentative glances all night across the bar. Sure, there's probably girls out there expecting me to show up again to go from there, but expectation is the root of all heartbreak and it's not my fault they don't read Shakespeare -_-

Wow, you look at relationships in a unique way. But one day this will not be all play. You also can't lie to a girl, we have a way of finding out the truth. Well at least I do. If my boyfriend ever got physical with another girl it will be over between us. I won't give it a second thought. I don't accept being played.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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5/23/2013 9:11:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 8:14:12 AM, leojm wrote:
At 5/22/2013 5:38:16 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
The girls I hit on all seem to enjoy it. I mean it's one thing to lie to girls and manipulate them into the sack, but that's not my prerogative. On the contrary, I am just as at-risk of being emotionally damaged by a physical dead-end relationship as the girl is. The moment I get physical with a girl I can't stop thinking about her, and then I have to worry about who she's with, why she isn't calling, etc. Perhaps I am not representing my position accurately... I want a girl of the highest caliber. Looks are not enough... I need a strong mind, a strong body, talent, responsibility, and most importantly fidelity. When I meet said woman, I'm not going to secure her if I have a long and colorful history of womanizing, and I'm sure she's going to ask. It's not enough just to avoid the question or deny that I've been physical with other girls, I will have to look her in the eye and tell her that, despite the fact that my ex had physical relationships with other guys while she was dating me, I never broke and I still haven't had another physical relationship since I started dating her almost a year ago. Hell, I haven't even bought a girl a drink... I simply see someone who has potential, and I make my move. It's all word-play. They like the admiration, I get some practice in, and we both leave separately feeling like we had more enjoyment out of the night than if we simply exchanged tentative glances all night across the bar. Sure, there's probably girls out there expecting me to show up again to go from there, but expectation is the root of all heartbreak and it's not my fault they don't read Shakespeare -_-

Wow, you look at relationships in a unique way. But one day this will not be all play. You also can't lie to a girl, we have a way of finding out the truth. Well at least I do. If my boyfriend ever got physical with another girl it will be over between us. I won't give it a second thought. I don't accept being played.

I'm not getting "physical" with anybody... my girl left me for somebody who became a master at exactly what I'm doing now - learning how to woo girls and tell them what they want to hear. I got bored in a long relationship that spanned 8 years, and lost that silver tongue. If you read my "voyeurism" thread, I got a lot more than "bored," I became sexually deviant and essentially imploded. When she met somebody that had that verbal honey that girls love, it was night and day for her and she couldn't help but leaving me for what seemed so much more desirable. I'm not out there "lying" to girls, I'm simply practicing. I'm never again going to become that person who doesn't appreciate his woman and loses her to someone that does, I am going to get used to wooing girls whether I'm single or married and when I do find someone worth dating I am going to turn that attention towards her. But it takes practice - creativity, the courage to put yourself out there (it's easy to just not try), and a smoothness that only comes from repetition. By the end of the year I am going to be the most eligible bachelor in Green Bay. That goal is not achieved by lying to girls in order to get quick physical encounters. A lot of the players around town are prodding me to get my "training wheels" back and take some girl home, but that is BS... that only is going to make me want my old girl back, who was way better than any one-night stand I'm going to get. My strength to maintain emotional integrity only comes from my own chastity. Without that, I have nothing.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
TULIP
Posts: 398
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5/25/2013 1:07:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've been single for two years and it's a great time to spend with God, family and friends. Time not wasted for preparation of being a future wife and mother. :)
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
justin.graves
Posts: 220
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5/25/2013 1:34:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/17/2013 4:34:29 AM, leojm wrote:
Well, I'm single. It's not that bad. I mean why so quick to get into a relationship and ending up being dumped? If I'm going to date someone, it's going to be someone I see my self with. I'm not going to date/marry someone I can live with, but instead date/marry someone I can't live without.

Exactly. Heck, I hear all these teens around me telling me how they are "Soooooo in looooove!" but can't define what love is. That's a pile of crappus. What they really mean is: "My personality and identity is so wrapped up in this person I would be lost and clueless without him/her." They feel like they NEED a relationship. Heck, I don't need anyone but myself and Jesus to stay happy. I like people, but I don't need 'em.
-Justin K. Graves, Demon Hunter