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Irrational love LOST

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/11/2013 1:54:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've been watching LOST (the first season) again, and I noticed how irrational it is that Kate would go for Sawyer over Jack.

Specifically, in the episode "Confidence Man," Sawyer makes Kate kiss him in exchange for medicine (which he later admits he doesn't have). So, this was blackmail. After that, he gets himself injured in a fight with Sayid and Jack saves his life. He flat-out admits that if their roles were reversed, he would watch Jack die.

And yet after all this, Kate actually has a relationship with Sawyer! I can't believe she picks a d1ck of a con-man over the upstanding doctor who works to save them and get them out of the island.

What does this show about the personalities of women? Do you believe it was accurately portrayed? Do the irrational decisions made by Kate represent the irrationality of women's mate selection choices in real life?
Ore_Ele
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6/11/2013 1:58:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think it is late at night and you are reading way too much into it, lol.
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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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6/11/2013 2:29:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
First of all, Lost thread for the win.

Second, why aren't we looking at this issue from the other direction. Why would an upstanding, successful doctor who is working hard to save everyone on the island be at all interested in a lying, deceitful, manipulative fugitive in the first place? It would make sense that Kate would be interested in either of them; the handsome doctor and the rebellious loner with whom she felt a kinship (as they are and were both outcasts). The only attraction that doesn't make sense and is not rooted in any past relationships is the attraction of Jack toward Kate.

Should we then be asking is this normal male behavior? Do Jack's feelings toward Kate represent the irrationality of men in relationships? Do guys always go for lying, two-timing, murdering bitches?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Maikuru
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6/11/2013 2:37:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
AND FURTHERMORE...Let's look at each of their past relationships, shall we?

Jack had been involved with three woman that we know of before getting to the island. The first is his ex-wife; a beautiful, successful, independent woman who loved him largely because of his success. Then there was the French woman whose father he was unable to save. Again, she is beautiful, successful, worldly, and loves him for his skills and confidence. Lastly, we see him in a tumultuous relationship with the Thai woman, which I think we can all agree was mostly lustful. What part of any of these should indicate to us that he would be at all attracted to Kate? Let's be honest, she is a hot mess. She was absolutely nothing going for her at any point in her life and Jack knows this from the start.

Then there is Kate. Her strongest relationship was with the man she would later kill. He was a doctor and kind-hearted, so it makes sense that she would immediately be drawn to Jack. However, that relationship ended in absolute disaster, so her resistance to Jack throughout the show makes sense. With this resistance would come a natural kindship with Sawyer, who was (to the outcasts and the real world) as much as a criminal and screw up as she was.

Lastly we have Sawyer. The only woman we ever see him love prior to arriving on the island is with a woman he cons. I forget her name but he has a child with her. She is a fellow con (he trains her) and resembles Kate greatly in terms of personality. Again, his attraction to Kate here makes sense.

The only pairing that doesn't add up is Jack and Kate, specifically him wanting her.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Maikuru
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6/11/2013 2:38:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I should add that Confidence Man is one of my favorite episodes =D

tulle and I just finished watching the series yesterday so I'm sure she'll have something to add eventually.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Maikuru
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6/11/2013 2:41:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
While we're on the topic of love mismatches, I think there are two couples that deserve as much questioning as Jack wanting Kate: Juliet wanting Sawyer and Sayid wanting Shannon. Honestly, the fvck? What are the motivations leading to either one of these odd pairings? I'd love to hear some answers.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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drafterman
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6/11/2013 7:26:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:54:23 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I've been watching LOST (the first season) again, and I noticed how irrational it is that Kate would go for Sawyer over Jack.

Specifically, in the episode "Confidence Man," Sawyer makes Kate kiss him in exchange for medicine (which he later admits he doesn't have). So, this was blackmail. After that, he gets himself injured in a fight with Sayid and Jack saves his life. He flat-out admits that if their roles were reversed, he would watch Jack die.

And yet after all this, Kate actually has a relationship with Sawyer! I can't believe she picks a d1ck of a con-man over the upstanding doctor who works to save them and get them out of the island.

What does this show about the personalities of women? Do you believe it was accurately portrayed? Do the irrational decisions made by Kate represent the irrationality of women's mate selection choices in real life?

Shirtless Sawyer is irresistible.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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6/11/2013 9:59:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
People are nuts.
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Noumena
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6/11/2013 11:15:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I love that f-4848 can't understand the attraction to Sawyer.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Noumena
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6/11/2013 12:42:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:41:21 AM, Maikuru wrote:
While we're on the topic of love mismatches, I think there are two couples that deserve as much questioning as Jack wanting Kate: Juliet wanting Sawyer and Sayid wanting Shannon. Honestly, the fvck? What are the motivations leading to either one of these odd pairings? I'd love to hear some answers.

I don't get why anyone would go for Shannon. Guess they just needed to make Sayid appear at least nominally human. Juliet and Sawyer are easy. Just look at Sawyer.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Danielle
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6/11/2013 12:46:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 11:15:34 AM, Noumena wrote:
I love that f-4848 can't understand the attraction to Sawyer.

LOL. Me too :)
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/11/2013 12:54:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Maikuru's analysis makes sense b t dubs. EXCEPT. It's fairly obvious why Jack would be attracted to Kate lol. Honestly, she is definitely in my top 5 TV crushes of all time. Who cares if she's a lying, sneaky murderer?! She still has depth and some substance. She's NOT overall bad (if anything maybe damaged and misunderstood). Still, she's so fvcking hot. And sexy. My god. I want to watch LOST all over again just because I was so in love with her.

Guyz, they're stranded on a deserted island and have no way of knowing if they'll ever make it off. I don't know about ya'll, but I have a pretty high sex drive. I wouldn't be able to go that long without having sex. And while being a good, upstanding person with a great job might be of utmost priority here in the States, on that island I think physical attractiveness played a huge part in attraction probably more than integrity and resourcefulness.

I agree that Jack made a more reliable partner, but women go for "bad boys" all the time. Science now points to evidence of a hormonal attraction; it's why women like guys like George Clooney and James Bond despite them not being reliable, dependent father-types as evolutionary discourse would otherwise have you assume would be the ideal. Women appreciate hypermasculinity and find it sexy in many instances. Maybe it's subjective.

Anyway Shannon and Sawyer are both hot (but I think Juliet's attraction to Sawyer was far more incredible than Kate's).
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/11/2013 2:32:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sawyer has this irritating smug smile that he flashes at everyone. I can't believe anyone would actually like him.

Maikuru, I agree that you have good points. I think Jack's attraction to Kate would be her personality. She is physically attractive, has good interpersonal skills, the ability to be independent and take care of herself, good problem solving skills and is moderately athletic.

The other women on the island (at least in season 1) don't possess any of those attributes. Shannon is a whiny, irresponsible loser. Claire has a baby. I think despite her criminal past, Kate makes herself look more attractive than the others. This isn't based just on her looks. If Evangeline Lilly had played Shannon and the actress playing Shannon played Kate, I would still have said Kate was more attractive.

I wouldn't call Kate a "lying, decietful, manipulative fugitive" because everyone lies/manipulatesto some extent. For instance, you may be extra nice to someone if you want a favor from them. You probably might tell a fat friend that they look great, etc. Kate's fugitive status wasn't really her fault and there can be a case made that she was the moral person acting in self defense. It seems that at least to Jack, her personality trumps those attributes.

Regarding physical attractiveness of the guys, I think that both Jack and Sawyer are equally good looking. It can't have been physical attractiveness that made Kate pick Sawyer over Jack. I get Danielle's "bad boy" analysis but withholding medicine from a sick girl and forcing Kate to kiss him is over the line. I can't believe a woman would let that pass.

As for Maikuru's point about "rebels," their personalities differed a lot. I don't think Kate and Sawyer were the same kind of people despite both being outcasts. They reacted to being stranded very differently. Kate took a leadership position mediating disputes and contributing to survival in the same way that Jack did while Sawyer stole everybody's stuff and sulked in a corner. In that way, Kate is a lot more like Jack than she is like Sawyer.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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6/11/2013 6:05:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:41:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
Jack is a bit overbearing in his smugness.

This. Jack was one of my least favourite characters for the first 5 seasons.
yang.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/11/2013 6:11:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 6:05:28 PM, tulle wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:41:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
Jack is a bit overbearing in his smugness.

This. Jack was one of my least favourite characters for the first 5 seasons.

You are kidding right? Jack was the one who organized everyone in the first few days where they landed on the island. He went from one person to another ensuring their medical needs. He went to the plane to get supplies (I think). He was a de-facto leader.

Who is your favorite character?
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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6/11/2013 6:17:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In terms of just physical attractiveness, Sawyer 100x > Jack.

That being said... I think Kate explained her attraction to Sawyer in terms of daddy issues, so I think her attraction to him made sense.

Despite the awful things Sawyer did in the beginning, Kate saw his vulnerable side when she found out about the original Sawyer. Additionally, Sawyer proved himself several times over to really care about people on the island (eg. Jack, Kate, Hurley, Jin, Michael).

While Jack took on a leadership role and did everything he could to help everybody, like Drafter said, he was overbearing. I can totally see why Kate wouldn't be interested. He was often condescending, excluding her from excursions and telling her what she could and couldn't do.

Sayid and Shannon, I just... don't get. Yeah, you're on an island with a small group of people and you don't know if you're going to survive so you form an attachment with someone you may not have were you not in that situation... but would they really have us believe that, had Shannon not died, Sayid wouldn't have gone looking for Nadia? I don't think so...

Sawyer and Juliet, it's difficult to say because we didn't get to see 3 years, when their relationship formed. Though I can see it happening because they were both stuck in this crazy situation and could confide in each other and be honest with each other about who they were and where they came from.

Sidenote: I fvcking hated Kate.
yang.
tulle
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6/11/2013 6:22:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 6:11:58 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

You are kidding right? Jack was the one who organized everyone in the first few days where they landed on the island. He went from one person to another ensuring their medical needs. He went to the plane to get supplies (I think). He was a de-facto leader.


Yeah, he did a lot of great things and was definitely essential to everyone's survival. Everything about his character just rubbed me the wrong way. Like the fact that he would get upset when people didn't tell him things, but he didn't tell people things either. Essentially, what John Locke said to him when he asked why he didn't tell Jack about the hatch.

Who is your favorite character?

Hard to say. Sawyer was one of my favourites from season 2-5. But after he killed Jin and Sun I could never forgive him :p

I loved Jin and Sun. Hurley. Ben.

But I think my favourite character in the end was John Locke. I was extremely ambivalent toward him (loved him sometimes, hated him sometimes) for most of the series. When the Black Smoke thing was revealed, Locke became my favourite character. The actor is just soo impressive.
yang.
drafterman
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6/11/2013 6:26:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 6:11:58 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/11/2013 6:05:28 PM, tulle wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:41:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
Jack is a bit overbearing in his smugness.

This. Jack was one of my least favourite characters for the first 5 seasons.

You are kidding right? Jack was the one who organized everyone in the first few days where they landed on the island. He went from one person to another ensuring their medical needs. He went to the plane to get supplies (I think). He was a de-facto leader.

Who is your favorite character?

Locke.
philochristos
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6/11/2013 6:35:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:54:40 PM, Danielle wrote:

Guyz, they're stranded on a deserted island and have no way of knowing if they'll ever make it off. I don't know about ya'll, but I have a pretty high sex drive. I wouldn't be able to go that long without having sex. And while being a good, upstanding person with a great job might be of utmost priority here in the States, on that island I think physical attractiveness played a huge part in attraction probably more than integrity and resourcefulness.

While being stranded on an island might make you lower your standards some, you have to also keep in mind that they probably didn't take regular showers either!
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
tulle
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6/11/2013 6:38:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree that, of the people on the island, Jack made the best leader. He was probably the most trustworthy and capable. But one of the things that bothered me the most about Jack was the way he went about being a leader. Whenever Jack wanted to do something, he could find a group of people right away and people just did what he wanted. Michael wanted to build a raft, and had Jack been on board with it, everyone would have helped. Instead, Michael had to do most of it on his own while everyone watched :/

Sawyer also proved that he could be a leader, when they were part of the Dharma Initiative. But he wasn't overbearing and controlling about it (eg. Faraday left, probably without a fuss. Jack didn't want to let anyone do anything.)
yang.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/12/2013 1:39:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Perhaps Jack was a more effective leader than Michael because of his persuasive ability that Michael didn't have. Just because people listened to him isn't a cause for concern. Also, he was never smug about anything. Locke was smug about a lot of things. He drugged Boone and tied him up and played god saying that "the experience was vital to Boone's survival" or some other such bullsh1t. Sawyer's smile is smug - acts as if he knows better than anyone else, almost as if he is superior in some way. If I was on the island, I'd probably punch them both in the face at least once.
AlbinoBunny
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6/12/2013 1:45:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 6:11:58 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/11/2013 6:05:28 PM, tulle wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:41:21 PM, drafterman wrote:
Jack is a bit overbearing in his smugness.

This. Jack was one of my least favourite characters for the first 5 seasons.

You are kidding right? Jack was the one who organized everyone in the first few days where they landed on the island. He went from one person to another ensuring their medical needs. He went to the plane to get supplies (I think). He was a de-facto leader.

Who is your favorite character?

It's all about John Locke.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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AlbinoBunny
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6/12/2013 1:46:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 6:26:46 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/11/2013 6:24:00 PM, tulle wrote:
Omg how could I forget Desmond. I love Desmond.

Nvm. Brother Desmond

See ya' in anotha' life, brotha'!
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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Noumena
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6/12/2013 7:20:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 6:26:46 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/11/2013 6:24:00 PM, tulle wrote:
Omg how could I forget Desmond. I love Desmond.

Nvm. Brother Desmond

Obviously. Dat story arc. Feels.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.