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Sexual harrassment

Cermank
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6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.
darkkermit
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6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.
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Cermank
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6/13/2013 11:52:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.

Yeah, but blatant sexual harassment is easy to spot. Rubbing your groin against someone's body, for example. Or I don't know, standing really close when there's a lot of space and stuff.
Eitan_Zohar
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6/13/2013 11:56:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 11:52:26 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.

Yeah, but blatant sexual harassment is easy to spot. Rubbing your groin against someone's body, for example. Or I don't know, standing really close when there's a lot of space and stuff.

You could always grab a Haredi bus.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Cermank
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6/13/2013 12:03:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 11:56:28 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:52:26 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.

Yeah, but blatant sexual harassment is easy to spot. Rubbing your groin against someone's body, for example. Or I don't know, standing really close when there's a lot of space and stuff.

You could always grab a Haredi bus.

I sometimes think they actually exacerbate the problem. Regardless, that's really not an option outside Israel. India, for example, has a women only coach in metro- but not an equivalent of Haredi buses.

But I'm not even talking about personal experiences or anything. Just generally, do you think it would be better- for the women, if she didn't make a huge issue of it? Objectively.
Cermank
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6/13/2013 12:08:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That was really bad wording. Replace 'didn't make a very big deal of it' with whatever diplomatically correct sentiment. You get my point, though?
Eitan_Zohar
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6/13/2013 12:34:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 12:03:51 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:56:28 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:52:26 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.

Yeah, but blatant sexual harassment is easy to spot. Rubbing your groin against someone's body, for example. Or I don't know, standing really close when there's a lot of space and stuff.

You could always grab a Haredi bus.

I sometimes think they actually exacerbate the problem. Regardless, that's really not an option outside Israel. India, for example, has a women only coach in metro- but not an equivalent of Haredi buses.

But I'm not even talking about personal experiences or anything. Just generally, do you think it would be better- for the women, if she didn't make a huge issue of it? Objectively.

Well, I was half-joking... I don't have much experience with sexual harassment. If you were sexually harassed, I'd think that you should shout off the guy and humiliate him as much as possible in order to keep him off for good. Although a psychologist might be better equipped to answer this.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Cermank
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6/13/2013 1:32:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 12:34:03 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 12:03:51 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:56:28 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:52:26 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.

Yeah, but blatant sexual harassment is easy to spot. Rubbing your groin against someone's body, for example. Or I don't know, standing really close when there's a lot of space and stuff.

You could always grab a Haredi bus.

I sometimes think they actually exacerbate the problem. Regardless, that's really not an option outside Israel. India, for example, has a women only coach in metro- but not an equivalent of Haredi buses.

But I'm not even talking about personal experiences or anything. Just generally, do you think it would be better- for the women, if she didn't make a huge issue of it? Objectively.

Well, I was half-joking... I don't have much experience with sexual harassment. If you were sexually harassed, I'd think that you should shout off the guy and humiliate him as much as possible in order to keep him off for good. Although a psychologist might be better equipped to answer this.

But here's where it disintegrates, though. As opposed to a, say, work environment, where you know both the players, in a one-off eve teasing case, you really have no information. While it can work in the first case, in the second case it is a really bad choice, even though ethically, it is the right thing to do.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/13/2013 2:05:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 11:52:26 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.

Yeah, but blatant sexual harassment is easy to spot. Rubbing your groin against someone's body, for example. Or I don't know, standing really close when there's a lot of space and stuff.

Okay, that's worse. Wasn't sure if this was just about some dudes making sex jokes, and someone being offended.
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Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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6/13/2013 2:10:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 1:32:13 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 12:34:03 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 12:03:51 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:56:28 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:52:26 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:43:47 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Depends how long the bus ride is :p.

Public transportation always seems to have someone who is loud, rude, and completely inconsiderate of others on the bus.

Yeah, but blatant sexual harassment is easy to spot. Rubbing your groin against someone's body, for example. Or I don't know, standing really close when there's a lot of space and stuff.

You could always grab a Haredi bus.

I sometimes think they actually exacerbate the problem. Regardless, that's really not an option outside Israel. India, for example, has a women only coach in metro- but not an equivalent of Haredi buses.

But I'm not even talking about personal experiences or anything. Just generally, do you think it would be better- for the women, if she didn't make a huge issue of it? Objectively.

Well, I was half-joking... I don't have much experience with sexual harassment. If you were sexually harassed, I'd think that you should shout off the guy and humiliate him as much as possible in order to keep him off for good. Although a psychologist might be better equipped to answer this.

But here's where it disintegrates, though. As opposed to a, say, work environment, where you know both the players, in a one-off eve teasing case, you really have no information. While it can work in the first case, in the second case it is a really bad choice, even though ethically, it is the right thing to do.

You'd be in public, right? Just say "get away from me!" loudly enough for people to take notice. He won't want to continue.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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6/13/2013 4:48:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM, Cermank wrote:
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.

I haven't, nor would I even attempt to flirt with someone in the workplace, for a host of reasons that we all probably understand without my detailing them. If I'm in Starbucks and I see a guy who I like, I might make an excuse to talk to him... but that's it. At the bar, though, it's a different situation -lol.

But if anyone made a pass at me and I wasn't interested, I'd just move on. That said, I'm a guy.
Tsar of DDO
Eitan_Zohar
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6/13/2013 6:00:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 4:48:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM, Cermank wrote:
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.

I haven't, nor would I even attempt to flirt with someone in the workplace, for a host of reasons that we all probably understand without my detailing them. If I'm in Starbucks and I see a guy who I like, I might make an excuse to talk to him... but that's it. At the bar, though, it's a different situation -lol.

But if anyone made a pass at me and I wasn't interested, I'd just move on. That said, I'm a guy.

How do you make assumptions as to which guys are queerfags? (WSA is not a good influence.)
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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6/13/2013 6:10:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 6:00:28 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 4:48:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM, Cermank wrote:
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.

I haven't, nor would I even attempt to flirt with someone in the workplace, for a host of reasons that we all probably understand without my detailing them. If I'm in Starbucks and I see a guy who I like, I might make an excuse to talk to him... but that's it. At the bar, though, it's a different situation -lol.

But if anyone made a pass at me and I wasn't interested, I'd just move on. That said, I'm a guy.

How do you make assumptions as to which guys are queerfags? (WSA is not a good influence.)

If you want to know if someone is gay or not, watch their eyes. If a dude "checks out" another dude who walks by, and that becomes a pattern, he's probably into guys. It happens in microglances though, so you have to pay attention -but you don't want to be too obvious about it, lest you look like a creeper. But that's not the final say... it usually takes a conversation to confirm suspicion or not.

But I don't assume. I look for evidence. And my gaydar, while it's not perfect, it's pretty damn good.
Tsar of DDO
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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6/13/2013 6:15:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 6:10:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/13/2013 6:00:28 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 4:48:54 PM, YYW wrote:

I haven't, nor would I even attempt to flirt with someone in the workplace, for a host of reasons that we all probably understand without my detailing them. If I'm in Starbucks and I see a guy who I like, I might make an excuse to talk to him... but that's it. At the bar, though, it's a different situation -lol.

But if anyone made a pass at me and I wasn't interested, I'd just move on. That said, I'm a guy.

How do you make assumptions as to which guys are queerfags? (WSA is not a good influence.)

If you want to know if someone is gay or not, watch their eyes. If a dude "checks out" another dude who walks by, and that becomes a pattern, he's probably into guys. It happens in microglances though, so you have to pay attention -but you don't want to be too obvious about it, lest you look like a creeper. But that's not the final say... it usually takes a conversation to confirm suspicion or not.

But I don't assume. I look for evidence. And my gaydar, while it's not perfect, it's pretty damn good.

I have terrible gaydar. Teach me yer ways omniscient once. Though I will admit the eyes have always been a good place to start.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Noumena
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6/13/2013 6:18:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As per the OP (or something the OP reminded me of), Walter Block (a libertarian theorists who takes the NAP-type thinking waaaaay too far) argues that sexual harassment in the workplace should be viewed simply as one among many possible negatives at a job. I think he compared it to just getting a sh1tty office. Whatever. Food for thought.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
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6/13/2013 6:26:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 6:15:37 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/13/2013 6:10:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/13/2013 6:00:28 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 6/13/2013 4:48:54 PM, YYW wrote:

I haven't, nor would I even attempt to flirt with someone in the workplace, for a host of reasons that we all probably understand without my detailing them. If I'm in Starbucks and I see a guy who I like, I might make an excuse to talk to him... but that's it. At the bar, though, it's a different situation -lol.

But if anyone made a pass at me and I wasn't interested, I'd just move on. That said, I'm a guy.

How do you make assumptions as to which guys are queerfags? (WSA is not a good influence.)

If you want to know if someone is gay or not, watch their eyes. If a dude "checks out" another dude who walks by, and that becomes a pattern, he's probably into guys. It happens in microglances though, so you have to pay attention -but you don't want to be too obvious about it, lest you look like a creeper. But that's not the final say... it usually takes a conversation to confirm suspicion or not.

But I don't assume. I look for evidence. And my gaydar, while it's not perfect, it's pretty damn good.

I have terrible gaydar. Teach me yer ways omniscient once. Though I will admit the eyes have always been a good place to start.

The stereotypical physical characteristics are:

Look for a counter clockwise hair whorl (not sufficient to indicate that a dude is gay, but significantly increases the likelihood), a long forefinger, how a guy walks, etc.

The more subtle things are:

Watching someone's eyes, and listening to them talk. Gay men tend to be more verbose (as in, they use more words to convey an idea) than straight men do.

But really, the eye contact thing is the only metric that's reliable -and even then it's not fool proof. Some guys look at other guys just because they're jealous.
Tsar of DDO
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/13/2013 9:10:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 6:18:54 PM, Noumena wrote:
As per the OP (or something the OP reminded me of), Walter Block (a libertarian theorists who takes the NAP-type thinking waaaaay too far) argues that sexual harassment in the workplace should be viewed simply as one among many possible negatives at a job. I think he compared it to just getting a sh1tty office. Whatever. Food for thought.

Well considering that you have no information about the work environment before you enter, the difficulty in switching jobs, and the possibility you might be under contract, and how low-cost it is to remove sexual harassment, I think sexual harassment laws are fair.

More interesting food for thought though is the idea that sexual harassment occurs not because guys are sexist, but because they are not sexists. Harassment and sexual harassment has been around in the workplace before women entered the workforce, and men have a tendencies to try to put down one another.
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rross
Posts: 2,772
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6/16/2013 10:12:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM, Cermank wrote:
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.

Yes, I think it's best if you can ignore it or avoid it somehow. I'm going to come out and name India as the gropiest country in the world. I haven't sampled every country, obviously, but India really stands out to me as somewhere men will put their hands on you in the street all the time. Worse is that smug little expression they get because they believe that by touching you, even through your clothes, they've somehow scored a little victory of violation.

What's the best thing to do? If you ever figure it out, please let me know because that would be useful knowledge to have.
Cermank
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6/16/2013 10:29:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/16/2013 10:12:18 PM, rross wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM, Cermank wrote:
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.

Yes, I think it's best if you can ignore it or avoid it somehow. I'm going to come out and name India as the gropiest country in the world. I haven't sampled every country, obviously, but India really stands out to me as somewhere men will put their hands on you in the street all the time. Worse is that smug little expression they get because they believe that by touching you, even throughto your clothes, they've somehow scored a little victory of violation.

Have you been to India?

What's the best thing to do? If you ever figure it out, please let me know because that would be useful knowledge to have.

I figured ignoring was the best thing to do. But I wasn't really sure, and this is something I'm not really comfortable discussing irl, thus the question. Like in this particular case, I merely gave up on my seat and stood up. The only concern I had was whether or not this might motivate them to go further, but thankfully it did not happen, so that's fine I guess.
rross
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6/16/2013 10:47:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/16/2013 10:29:49 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/16/2013 10:12:18 PM, rross wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM, Cermank wrote:
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.

Yes, I think it's best if you can ignore it or avoid it somehow. I'm going to come out and name India as the gropiest country in the world. I haven't sampled every country, obviously, but India really stands out to me as somewhere men will put their hands on you in the street all the time. Worse is that smug little expression they get because they believe that by touching you, even throughto your clothes, they've somehow scored a little victory of violation.

Have you been to India?

Yes, but only for three months, so most stuff I never figured out properly.

What's the best thing to do? If you ever figure it out, please let me know because that would be useful knowledge to have.

I figured ignoring was the best thing to do. But I wasn't really sure, and this is something I'm not really comfortable discussing irl, thus the question. Like in this particular case, I merely gave up on my seat and stood up. The only concern I had was whether or not this might motivate them to go further, but thankfully it did not happen, so that's fine I guess.

That's what I would do too. But I always feel a bit angry, like, why should I have to? But whenever I have made a scene, it's never worked out well.
Cermank
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6/16/2013 11:07:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/16/2013 10:47:41 PM, rross wrote:
At 6/16/2013 10:29:49 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 6/16/2013 10:12:18 PM, rross wrote:
At 6/13/2013 11:36:58 AM, Cermank wrote:
Do you think people follow different standards for sexual harassment on road/ buses vis a vis sexual harassment at work? i.e a one-off sexual harassment when compared to a relentless sexual harassment at a 'known' place? That ignoring a sexual harassment on buses is better than the alternative of 'whistleblowing' and making it into a huge issue? Do you think it's justified?

I put it in personal because I'm not really looking for debating. Looking at it as a 'real life issue' for now.

Yes, I think it's best if you can ignore it or avoid it somehow. I'm going to come out and name India as the gropiest country in the world. I haven't sampled every country, obviously, but India really stands out to me as somewhere men will put their hands on you in the street all the time. Worse is that smug little expression they get because they believe that by touching you, even throughto your clothes, they've somehow scored a little victory of violation.

Have you been to India?

Yes, but only for three months, so most stuff I never figured out properly.

I live in India and didn't figure it out till date, so that's understandable. I don't think there can be an answer to that.

What's the best thing to do? If you ever figure it out, please let me know because that would be useful knowledge to have.

I figured ignoring was the best thing to do. But I wasn't really sure, and this is something I'm not really comfortable discussing irl, thus the question. Like in this particular case, I merely gave up on my seat and stood up. The only concern I had was whether or not this might motivate them to go further, but thankfully it did not happen, so that's fine I guess.

That's what I would do too. But I always feel a bit angry, like, why should I have to? But whenever I have made a scene, it's never worked out well.

I feel irritated, tbh. I think there's an element of time as well; the late it is, the more is the 'she's asking for it' mentality. There are nice people, of course, but then there are creeps- and nice people dont want to engage with creeps so there's the problem right there.