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Atheism, A Personal Issue

AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 1:36:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I said I'd put this here seeing as this board is receiving so much attention lately.

For starters, I've always been a rather firm proponent of that the PoE is the greatest problem one encounters with regard to believing in God, and I shall here elucidate the why, as it seems it is badly needed.

People think their atheism is some logical conclusion that they have drawn, but as a matter of fact, it is not. One can see the anger seeping through the atheist in espousing his or her belief, and this actually makes it rather obvious, or if you're not so stuck up your own arse, that is. Drafterman poked at TULIP in her thread about her exposing herself as only holding an emotional basis for her belief, and now allow me to show you why the atheist is just the same.

The first conception is of God: you are born and you go wow. Then if that wow can be sustained - if you are born into a perfect world, say - it will be; but not only that, it will be sustained if it is necessary that it be sustained: if you are born into a world where the only solace for you will be the light at the end of the tunnel. I've said it before: the slighted in life are more likely to believe in God, and this is evinced by the glorious black choir. And then keep this in mind.

But the wow being sustained is not the only way it plays out of course, and so we have another instance to take a closer look at. IMO, it is a self-righteous moment, wrought of fear. The person looks around them and sees all sorts of terrors and says, "No. This life is for me and I'll do everything and anything I can to survive," and here we have a rather twisted and emotional mindset, and the birth of I.

But of course, again, it would be touted as a logical conclusion, and in your fear, it might seem as such... but it is not. Agnosticism is the position of the logician and just because you think you can explain away God and everything else does not mean that you actually can. This is a foolish notion. And so why do people believe such? Because it is facilitating and they think they can beat down any objection with anger, and then they have control, self-righteously usurped.

But that was not the only answer, that there is bad in the world and so God cannot exist. There is also We, but so fearful of each other and seeking immediately to protect our mortal selves from each other, the We is not considered, only as an aside: I can use others. And this is just rather disgusting to be honest. Now who's evil.

And before you would deny what I'm saying straight out, think back upon those slighted in life who are more likely to believe in God: there was no such control there for them as there was the now-atheist, and thus they believe in God. And then this helps to expose the emotional basis behind atheism. Both parties see the wrong of the world, the powerful turning towards denying God in their fear, the slighted forced to seek God out regardless. It is all fear, and worse, fear of each other. I mean, hardly that the 1 billion muslims are irrational, is it? More likely just lusting after control, too, no?

And then this is the mindset of the atheist - control, control, control - and it seeps into everything and quite evidently, God always at the core, boiling in fearfully irrational hate. "I don't need God; I can do this on my own," and there dies a whole lot of beauty that could come of that person, and because of that person, perhaps the world.

And so there you go, atheists. Thoughts?
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 1:47:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I personally subscribe to an Imaginationland sort of reality. Shared power between all of us only to be realized :D
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,449
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7/31/2013 1:53:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
my thought is this:

For someone who was adamant that we should stop, beating a dead horse, and that everything that needed to be said, was said, you sure don't seem to think you should follow your own advice...

other than that, ummm,

tl;dr - Atheists are greedy SOB's who want to control.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 1:55:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 1:53:04 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
my thought is this:

For someone who was adamant that we should stop, beating a dead horse, and that everything that needed to be said, was said, you sure don't seem to think you should follow your own advice...

other than that, ummm,

tl;dr - Atheists are greedy SOB's who want to control.

Um, all I said was that the other thread got out of hand... way to get wrapped up in your egotism bro.
Buddamoose
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7/31/2013 1:59:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 1:55:14 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 7/31/2013 1:53:04 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
my thought is this:

For someone who was adamant that we should stop, beating a dead horse, and that everything that needed to be said, was said, you sure don't seem to think you should follow your own advice...

other than that, ummm,

tl;dr - Atheists are greedy SOB's who want to control.

Um, all I said was that the other thread got out of hand

You are correct, got you and beginner confused, it happens often with the stock generic avies, just makes one poster look exactly like another.

... way to get wrapped up in your egotism bro.

Now see, upon what basis do you say I am/was wrapped up in my own egotism? What led you to draw that conclusion?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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7/31/2013 2:02:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 1:59:42 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 7/31/2013 1:55:14 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 7/31/2013 1:53:04 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
my thought is this:

For someone who was adamant that we should stop, beating a dead horse, and that everything that needed to be said, was said, you sure don't seem to think you should follow your own advice...

other than that, ummm,

tl;dr - Atheists are greedy SOB's who want to control.

Um, all I said was that the other thread got out of hand

You are correct, got you and beginner confused, it happens often with the stock generic avies, just makes one poster look exactly like another.

... way to get wrapped up in your egotism bro.

Now see, upon what basis do you say I am/was wrapped up in my own egotism? What led you to draw that conclusion?

It's pretty obvious bro. You're chuffed with yourself after making your two big, long posts and looking to discredit anyone who might shunt you out of the spotlight so soon. I mean, rather cheeky of you to tl;dr my post instead of leaving people to form their own opinions don't ya think?
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 2:06:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
As for my opinion on your posts, responding in kind, you compared atheists to cripples, sided with your friends and that was it, no great insight to be found within them whatsoever.

Let's refrain from acting like children in future though.
mattrodstrom
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7/31/2013 2:09:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 1:36:13 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I said I'd put this here seeing as this board is receiving so much attention lately.

For starters, I've always been a rather firm proponent of that the PoE is the greatest problem one encounters with regard to believing in God, and I shall here elucidate the why, as it seems it is badly needed.

People think their atheism is some logical conclusion that they have drawn, but as a matter of fact, it is not. One can see the anger seeping through the atheist in espousing his or her belief, and this actually makes it rather obvious, or if you're not so stuck up your own arse, that is. Drafterman poked at TULIP in her thread about her exposing herself as only holding an emotional basis for her belief, and now allow me to show you why the atheist is just the same.

The first conception is of God: you are born and you go wow. Then if that wow can be sustained - if you are born into a perfect world, say - it will be; but not only that, it will be sustained if it is necessary that it be sustained: if you are born into a world where the only solace for you will be the light at the end of the tunnel. I've said it before: the slighted in life are more likely to believe in God, and this is evinced by the glorious black choir. And then keep this in mind.

But the wow being sustained is not the only way it plays out of course, and so we have another instance to take a closer look at. IMO, it is a self-righteous moment, wrought of fear. The person looks around them and sees all sorts of terrors and says, "No. This life is for me and I'll do everything and anything I can to survive," and here we have a rather twisted and emotional mindset, and the birth of I.

But of course, again, it would be touted as a logical conclusion, and in your fear, it might seem as such... but it is not. Agnosticism is the position of the logician and just because you think you can explain away God and everything else does not mean that you actually can. This is a foolish notion. And so why do people believe such? Because it is facilitating and they think they can beat down any objection with anger, and then they have control, self-righteously usurped.

But that was not the only answer, that there is bad in the world and so God cannot exist. There is also We, but so fearful of each other and seeking immediately to protect our mortal selves from each other, the We is not considered, only as an aside: I can use others. And this is just rather disgusting to be honest. Now who's evil.

And before you would deny what I'm saying straight out, think back upon those slighted in life who are more likely to believe in God: there was no such control there for them as there was the now-atheist, and thus they believe in God. And then this helps to expose the emotional basis behind atheism. Both parties see the wrong of the world, the powerful turning towards denying God in their fear, the slighted forced to seek God out regardless. It is all fear, and worse, fear of each other. I mean, hardly that the 1 billion muslims are irrational, is it? More likely just lusting after control, too, no?

And then this is the mindset of the atheist - control, control, control - and it seeps into everything and quite evidently, God always at the core, boiling in fearfully irrational hate. "I don't need God; I can do this on my own," and there dies a whole lot of beauty that could come of that person, and because of that person, perhaps the world.

And so there you go, atheists. Thoughts?

I think that the most harm that believing in god can do is based in the fact that conceptions of what God wants may not reflect healthy and sustainable Human-like, humane, emotions and needs...

And then those who believe in god, and for some reason want to fulfill His Will, struggle to Stamp out their own Human-nature, stamp out their own natural and spontaneous cares.. so as to fulfill God's will.

This can cause personal struggle from a person tearing away at themselves...
and If their god's really a prick.. (As is the one of the OT).. This can influence/encourage people to be Inhumane to Others as well.

Additionally, I think when people are forced to confront the worst of their religion they're more apt to reconsider their positions...

This is why I personally often talk disparaging of the Christian god.. Because I think it makes people consider what such a god can cost/cause.

Which is the most dangerous thing about believing in imaginary things...
Those beliefs might bring unnecessary harm.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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7/31/2013 2:20:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Atheism and theism are kinda retro. Apatheism is where it's at. Believe what I believe or you will be condemned to the torment of having to hear me ask nicely again to believe what I believe.
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airmax1227
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7/31/2013 2:21:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:20:51 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Atheism and theism are kinda retro. Apatheism is where it's at. Believe what I believe or you will be condemned to the torment of having to hear me ask nicely again to believe what I believe.

Actually, I insist you don't believe what I believe... believe whatever works for you.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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7/31/2013 2:22:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:13:13 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I'm more of a new-agey 'make our own God' kinda guy, matt.

You Creator of Creators!

May God bless you, If you so choose!

...

Also, I figured that...
I think it can still engender rigid thinking and from that cause problems for a given believer and others... But it's probably usually more benign than taking a conception of god/god's will from a few millenia old book.

And, I don't think I'm an atheist because I'm self-righteous...
I think I'm an atheist because I know of know reason to think a conscious, all-powerfull, supernatural, being exists... and have a hard time believing in things when I see no reason to think it seems to be the case.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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7/31/2013 2:23:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:20:51 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Atheism and theism are kinda retro. Apatheism is where it's at. Believe what I believe or you will be condemned to the torment of having to hear me ask nicely again to believe what I believe.

Yeah, you seem pretty religiously cool all right :D
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 2:25:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:22:59 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/31/2013 2:13:13 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I'm more of a new-agey 'make our own God' kinda guy, matt.

You Creator of Creators!

May God bless you, If you so choose!

...

Also, I figured that...
I think it can still engender rigid thinking and from that cause problems for a given believer and others... But it's probably usually more benign than taking a conception of god/god's will from a few millenia old book.

And, I don't think I'm an atheist because I'm self-righteous...
I think I'm an atheist because I know of know reason to think a conscious, all-powerfull, supernatural, being exists... and have a hard time believing in things when I see no reason to think it seems to be the case.

Consciousness is a magical thing, matt. Also, the universe looks like a giant brain cell.
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 2:26:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:25:23 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 7/31/2013 2:22:59 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/31/2013 2:13:13 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I'm more of a new-agey 'make our own God' kinda guy, matt.

You Creator of Creators!

May God bless you, If you so choose!

...

Also, I figured that...
I think it can still engender rigid thinking and from that cause problems for a given believer and others... But it's probably usually more benign than taking a conception of god/god's will from a few millenia old book.

And, I don't think I'm an atheist because I'm self-righteous...
I think I'm an atheist because I know of know reason to think a conscious, all-powerfull, supernatural, being exists... and have a hard time believing in things when I see no reason to think it seems to be the case.

Consciousness is a magical thing, matt. Also, the universe looks like a giant brain cell.

This is the universe telling us to use our heads obviously ;D

You know the PoE sticks out for you too.
mattrodstrom
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7/31/2013 2:34:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:25:23 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Consciousness is a magical thing, matt.
It's definitely neat-o

But you can also see a pretty clear line of development in complexity of brains/potential for different levels of consciousness...

And it makes sense how step by little step it can develop

not saying consciousness isn't magical... Just that it also appears to have developed.

And, the fact that people's personalities and Everything that defines their consciousness can change given changes in their physical brain... The correlation there is a bit too immediate and strong for me to not think there's direct Causation too.

and if the physical nature of your Brain directly determines the nature of your consciousness (which is pretty much beyond doubt today).. and your brain developed step by step through evolutionary processes... then I don't see any need for a supernatural element here...

Also, the universe looks like a giant brain cell.
mmmm........ o.O

well screw all what I said about consciousness...
I think that might've convinced me ;)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 2:43:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There are more things in heaven and earth, matt, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. ;)

The Cogito is the true apex of human insight if that's the way you wanna go. And that's only to speak of magic!
mattrodstrom
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7/31/2013 2:44:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:26:26 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
You know the PoE sticks out for you too.

It does now..
But it's not the reason I stopped believing in god..

I stopped after trying to understand why I should believe Catholicism was the True Religion over Protestantism... which broadened further into why Christianity, Or even a christian-like god, was to be believed over other religions or no religious framework...

I found no good reasons, and upon realizing that I had no good reason to believe in God, I slowly came to accept that I no longer really did believe in god.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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7/31/2013 2:49:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:44:40 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I stopped after trying to understand why I should believe Catholicism was the True Religion over Protestantism...

I wasn't even trying to understand why I should believe it..

I did believe it... I was trying to come up with reasons for why it made sense to believe it.

Then, lacking reasons, and finding no trace of any despite searching... I eventually just realized I didn't even have the belief I'd been searching to justify anymore.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 3:07:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the PoE is the first blow whether we realize it or not, and then that we don't think so very hard on it, pressing issues otherwise to be considered. Babies do the goose step, matt! Haven't you noticed??
mattrodstrom
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7/31/2013 3:08:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 2:44:40 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 7/31/2013 2:26:26 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
You know the PoE sticks out for you too.

It does now..
But it's not the reason I stopped believing in god..

Also,
It actually doesn't really stick out to me so much...

I think it's generally felt to be of more importance to people who actually believe in an all-powerful, good, god...
Sure, I'll engage in a conversation along those lines when speaking with such people... But It's not really where my thoughts tend to lead me.

All the god debates I've done, and most of the longer, more in depth forum conversations I've had, usually revolve around either there being no good reason to believe in a supernatural element generally, or revolve around the fact that there's no good reason to draw Rationalistic, Ideals/absolutes from our human experience, and then choose those best ones and ascribe them to some most-perfect being, and suggest this thing must exist.

My bag isn't so much the fact that the creator can't be Good...
It's that there's no good reason to think that there's a creator in the first place, or to think that even if there were a supernatural element that it should be things like Good, conscious, or anything else.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 3:10:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Don't be scared, matt. Step back into the light :D

There is no denying it: were we born into a perfect world, nobody would question the existence of God.
mattrodstrom
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7/31/2013 3:16:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 3:10:24 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Don't be scared, matt. Step back into the light :D

There is no denying it: were we born into a perfect world, nobody would question the existence of God.

People have different ideas of god/gods...

Considering what makes your socially inherited conception righteous and the others mistaken/confused would seem to be something most sensible people might do.

and, well... if there's no real reason why yours is so righteous... well, I would think a lot of people would find it unavoidable to question their conception.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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7/31/2013 3:21:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 3:12:56 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I personally can remember an existential crisis I had when I was just gone 5 years old.

I was about 11-12...

I liked the homilies, liked considering the lessons which could be drawn from the parables generally, and liked discussing things in CCD which was a kind of Religion class my church held for kids that went to public school..
I also very much thought that as I got older I would consider being a priest.

It was in this same spirit that I came to consider the divide between Catholicism and Protestantism, and shortly thereafter other beliefs generally.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 3:21:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 3:17:33 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I would say it is just plain fear that breeds doubt in us, matt.

I'm talking about when your only conception is wow.
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 3:24:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I remember my brother had only been home from the hospital for a short time after being born and I had him lying on my chest our hearts beating off each other and I thought "What am I?"

Made for a kinda distant relationship between us unfortunately, my not having had any real answer for that at the time, but I'll make it up to him.
AnDoctuir
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7/31/2013 3:25:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I can almost see through my eyes again when I think of it, and just the feeling... pretty crazy.