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The Hypocrisy of It All

DetectableNinja
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11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/4/2013 8:26:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

boo hoo, your life sucks!

JK, I resolved to say that before even reading further. Well, lets take a look.


Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

I know that you've already pushed through the hard part, but I have to ask. How much did you change when you came out? When I say "change" I mean, allow your true self come out? We you pretending more than just your sexuality? Like did you pretend to like stuff that maybe you didn't? Or pretend to not like stuff that you did?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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11/4/2013 8:40:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

No worries.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed.

Yes, of course. It is, after all, highly unfashionable to be intolerant of homosexuality these days.

I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed.

You sure you were perceiving that accurately? I'm not saying that you weren't, I'm wondering what examples you recall of that happening, in a general sense.

There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

There are a couple of things going on, that I think you might benefit from becoming aware of. The first thing is that if people assumed you were straight, then even though you may have made no indication that you were or were not otherwise, to the extent that people believed you to be one "label" and you turned out to be another they are going to feel deceived -and people will take out the resentment for that deception by putting up a distance between you and them. It's not that they don't like you, it's that they didn't pick up on the fact that you were not straight and they don't know how to handle that... which leads me to to the second thing.

When someone like... let's just say Elton John came out, no one was surprised because we all more or less expected that he was gay. But, if people didn't know or at least didn't expect you to be gay, that makes them question how they understand sexuality. It should be that the similarities between you and others would be comforting to them, insofar as there's not much real, meaningful difference. The reality can be, though, that because of how similar you may be to... someone who is heterosexual, the fact that you would be otherwise indistinguishable from them makes them very nervous because it doesn't fit into how they understand sexuality and sexual identity.

There are others who, even though they probably love you and care about you, and even though because they love you and care about you and want you to be a part of their lives, have unresolved apprehension about homosexuality because it's not something they're used to. In that case, you have to be patient, and sympathetic on how hard it is for them to reconcile the fact that someone they care about is something they understand to be "wrong" or "unnatural, etc. I know that's a lot to ask, but the alternative is cutting them out of your life (bad idea, because if they want you to be a part of theirs, then you've just burnt a bridge) or keeping them at arms length too (also a bad idea, because they're going to judge you for judging them -even if you would be totally justified in doing so).

But ninja, the more people get used to the fact that you're not a hetero, the easier it will be for both you and them. Give it time.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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11/4/2013 8:48:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:26:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

boo hoo, your life sucks!

JK, I resolved to say that before even reading further. Well, lets take a look.


Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

I know that you've already pushed through the hard part, but I have to ask. How much did you change when you came out? When I say "change" I mean, allow your true self come out? We you pretending more than just your sexuality? Like did you pretend to like stuff that maybe you didn't? Or pretend to not like stuff that you did?

Honestly, I'd say that it was the opposite. I didn't change at all, almost to a fault. Obviously, I stayed myself. But, in a sense, after I came out, I almost unconsciously went out of my way to avoid being TRULY open about my sexuality (ie, talking to friends about male crushes, or even ANY crushes, really) as being anything other than a trivial/intellectualized fact. I kind of pushed the genuine, heartfelt, honest elements of my sexuality deep down and refused to express them. While others pursued relationships/were open about who they liked, who they found attractive, etc. I eventually just kind of retreated in on myself when I noticed people reacting poorly when I would try and make a comment in passing or something. So basically, I became emotionally constipated when it came to expressing/dealing with my romantic/chemical feelings.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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11/4/2013 9:03:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:40:42 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

No worries.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed.

Yes, of course. It is, after all, highly unfashionable to be intolerant of homosexuality these days.

I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed.

You sure you were perceiving that accurately? I'm not saying that you weren't, I'm wondering what examples you recall of that happening, in a general sense.

I dunno how to describe it, really. I COULD be perceiving it wrongly. But people kind of at first trivialized it. One person who I have cared for as a friend VERY deeply ended up starting to treat it like a novelty, like something to use as his own little conversation starter/punchline with his friends. Others just started to drift, I guess. You know: much in the way that friends drift over long periods of time, but in the course of maybe a week or two, and the gaps never really were rebuilt.

Of course, a lot of this probably resulted from the fact that I came out being, to some extent, quite more mature than my peers, who already are probably some of the more intelligent members of my generation. That isn't to be arrogant or anything: I think inherently wrestling with an issue like sexuality by nature makes you, by and large, a much more mature person.

There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

There are a couple of things going on, that I think you might benefit from becoming aware of. The first thing is that if people assumed you were straight, then even though you may have made no indication that you were or were not otherwise, to the extent that people believed you to be one "label" and you turned out to be another they are going to feel deceived -and people will take out the resentment for that deception by putting up a distance between you and them. It's not that they don't like you, it's that they didn't pick up on the fact that you were not straight and they don't know how to handle that... which leads me to to the second thing.

When someone like... let's just say Elton John came out, no one was surprised because we all more or less expected that he was gay. But, if people didn't know or at least didn't expect you to be gay, that makes them question how they understand sexuality. It should be that the similarities between you and others would be comforting to them, insofar as there's not much real, meaningful difference. The reality can be, though, that because of how similar you may be to... someone who is heterosexual, the fact that you would be otherwise indistinguishable from them makes them very nervous because it doesn't fit into how they understand sexuality and sexual identity.

There are others who, even though they probably love you and care about you, and even though because they love you and care about you and want you to be a part of their lives, have unresolved apprehension about homosexuality because it's not something they're used to. In that case, you have to be patient, and sympathetic on how hard it is for them to reconcile the fact that someone they care about is something they understand to be "wrong" or "unnatural, etc. I know that's a lot to ask, but the alternative is cutting them out of your life (bad idea, because if they want you to be a part of theirs, then you've just burnt a bridge) or keeping them at arms length too (also a bad idea, because they're going to judge you for judging them -even if you would be totally justified in doing so).

But ninja, the more people get used to the fact that you're not a hetero, the easier it will be for both you and them. Give it time.

I think that your observations are totally true. They are certainly thoughts I've had in my reflection of my situation. All the same, it's kind of frustrating. It's literally been multiple years, and you start to cry out in frustration, "How many years is enough!?" This is especially true when almost all of these people, people who I cherish so much, I'll probably be drifting from as high school comes to a close for us, here.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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11/4/2013 9:08:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 9:03:32 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:40:42 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

No worries.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed.

Yes, of course. It is, after all, highly unfashionable to be intolerant of homosexuality these days.

I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed.

You sure you were perceiving that accurately? I'm not saying that you weren't, I'm wondering what examples you recall of that happening, in a general sense.

I dunno how to describe it, really. I COULD be perceiving it wrongly. But people kind of at first trivialized it. One person who I have cared for as a friend VERY deeply ended up starting to treat it like a novelty, like something to use as his own little conversation starter/punchline with his friends.

I've got friends like that too, and you've just gotta roll with it... that's their way -probably- of showing that they're ok with it.

Others just started to drift, I guess. You know: much in the way that friends drift over long periods of time, but in the course of maybe a week or two, and the gaps never really were rebuilt.

Of course, a lot of this probably resulted from the fact that I came out being, to some extent, quite more mature than my peers, who already are probably some of the more intelligent members of my generation. That isn't to be arrogant or anything: I think inherently wrestling with an issue like sexuality by nature makes you, by and large, a much more mature person.

I think that in some, it might have that effect... but I think in others it can have considerably different results.

There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

There are a couple of things going on, that I think you might benefit from becoming aware of. The first thing is that if people assumed you were straight, then even though you may have made no indication that you were or were not otherwise, to the extent that people believed you to be one "label" and you turned out to be another they are going to feel deceived -and people will take out the resentment for that deception by putting up a distance between you and them. It's not that they don't like you, it's that they didn't pick up on the fact that you were not straight and they don't know how to handle that... which leads me to to the second thing.

When someone like... let's just say Elton John came out, no one was surprised because we all more or less expected that he was gay. But, if people didn't know or at least didn't expect you to be gay, that makes them question how they understand sexuality. It should be that the similarities between you and others would be comforting to them, insofar as there's not much real, meaningful difference. The reality can be, though, that because of how similar you may be to... someone who is heterosexual, the fact that you would be otherwise indistinguishable from them makes them very nervous because it doesn't fit into how they understand sexuality and sexual identity.

There are others who, even though they probably love you and care about you, and even though because they love you and care about you and want you to be a part of their lives, have unresolved apprehension about homosexuality because it's not something they're used to. In that case, you have to be patient, and sympathetic on how hard it is for them to reconcile the fact that someone they care about is something they understand to be "wrong" or "unnatural, etc. I know that's a lot to ask, but the alternative is cutting them out of your life (bad idea, because if they want you to be a part of theirs, then you've just burnt a bridge) or keeping them at arms length too (also a bad idea, because they're going to judge you for judging them -even if you would be totally justified in doing so).

But ninja, the more people get used to the fact that you're not a hetero, the easier it will be for both you and them. Give it time.

I think that your observations are totally true. They are certainly thoughts I've had in my reflection of my situation. All the same, it's kind of frustrating. It's literally been multiple years, and you start to cry out in frustration, "How many years is enough!?" This is especially true when almost all of these people, people who I cherish so much, I'll probably be drifting from as high school comes to a close for us, here.

You probably will drift from your high school friends, and that will probably be a good thing. However, there are some people from my high school years that are still very much a part of my life... about five that I keep in touch with from high school. One has been a guy I have been more or less in love with since I was a junior. We're very close friends, but that's it.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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11/4/2013 9:17:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 9:08:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/4/2013 9:03:32 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:40:42 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

No worries.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed.

Yes, of course. It is, after all, highly unfashionable to be intolerant of homosexuality these days.

I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed.

You sure you were perceiving that accurately? I'm not saying that you weren't, I'm wondering what examples you recall of that happening, in a general sense.

I dunno how to describe it, really. I COULD be perceiving it wrongly. But people kind of at first trivialized it. One person who I have cared for as a friend VERY deeply ended up starting to treat it like a novelty, like something to use as his own little conversation starter/punchline with his friends.

I've got friends like that too, and you've just gotta roll with it... that's their way -probably- of showing that they're ok with it.

I have. Again, I've been out for going on...three years, now?

But, I mean, it was kind of more than that. Like, he was telling random people who I don't even know about my bisexuality. Like "Hey, see him over there? He's bi. Lol, isn't that funny?" No, it fvcking is not (at least, back in the early days).

Others just started to drift, I guess. You know: much in the way that friends drift over long periods of time, but in the course of maybe a week or two, and the gaps never really were rebuilt.

Of course, a lot of this probably resulted from the fact that I came out being, to some extent, quite more mature than my peers, who already are probably some of the more intelligent members of my generation. That isn't to be arrogant or anything: I think inherently wrestling with an issue like sexuality by nature makes you, by and large, a much more mature person.

I think that in some, it might have that effect... but I think in others it can have considerably different results.

True. But for me, and again, not to have a haughty attitude, but I think it did have that effect.

There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

There are a couple of things going on, that I think you might benefit from becoming aware of. The first thing is that if people assumed you were straight, then even though you may have made no indication that you were or were not otherwise, to the extent that people believed you to be one "label" and you turned out to be another they are going to feel deceived -and people will take out the resentment for that deception by putting up a distance between you and them. It's not that they don't like you, it's that they didn't pick up on the fact that you were not straight and they don't know how to handle that... which leads me to to the second thing.

When someone like... let's just say Elton John came out, no one was surprised because we all more or less expected that he was gay. But, if people didn't know or at least didn't expect you to be gay, that makes them question how they understand sexuality. It should be that the similarities between you and others would be comforting to them, insofar as there's not much real, meaningful difference. The reality can be, though, that because of how similar you may be to... someone who is heterosexual, the fact that you would be otherwise indistinguishable from them makes them very nervous because it doesn't fit into how they understand sexuality and sexual identity.

There are others who, even though they probably love you and care about you, and even though because they love you and care about you and want you to be a part of their lives, have unresolved apprehension about homosexuality because it's not something they're used to. In that case, you have to be patient, and sympathetic on how hard it is for them to reconcile the fact that someone they care about is something they understand to be "wrong" or "unnatural, etc. I know that's a lot to ask, but the alternative is cutting them out of your life (bad idea, because if they want you to be a part of theirs, then you've just burnt a bridge) or keeping them at arms length too (also a bad idea, because they're going to judge you for judging them -even if you would be totally justified in doing so).

But ninja, the more people get used to the fact that you're not a hetero, the easier it will be for both you and them. Give it time.

I think that your observations are totally true. They are certainly thoughts I've had in my reflection of my situation. All the same, it's kind of frustrating. It's literally been multiple years, and you start to cry out in frustration, "How many years is enough!?" This is especially true when almost all of these people, people who I cherish so much, I'll probably be drifting from as high school comes to a close for us, here.

You probably will drift from your high school friends, and that will probably be a good thing. However, there are some people from my high school years that are still very much a part of my life... about five that I keep in touch with from high school. One has been a guy I have been more or less in love with since I was a junior. We're very close friends, but that's it.

That's what I've been expecting. All in all, there are probably only 3-5 people anyway who I genuinely, REALLY attached to, anyway.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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11/4/2013 9:27:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 9:17:03 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 11/4/2013 9:08:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/4/2013 9:03:32 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:40:42 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

No worries.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed.

Yes, of course. It is, after all, highly unfashionable to be intolerant of homosexuality these days.

I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed.

You sure you were perceiving that accurately? I'm not saying that you weren't, I'm wondering what examples you recall of that happening, in a general sense.

I dunno how to describe it, really. I COULD be perceiving it wrongly. But people kind of at first trivialized it. One person who I have cared for as a friend VERY deeply ended up starting to treat it like a novelty, like something to use as his own little conversation starter/punchline with his friends.

I've got friends like that too, and you've just gotta roll with it... that's their way -probably- of showing that they're ok with it.

I have. Again, I've been out for going on...three years, now?

But, I mean, it was kind of more than that. Like, he was telling random people who I don't even know about my bisexuality. Like "Hey, see him over there? He's bi. Lol, isn't that funny?" No, it fvcking is not (at least, back in the early days).

Did you ask your friend to stop?

Others just started to drift, I guess. You know: much in the way that friends drift over long periods of time, but in the course of maybe a week or two, and the gaps never really were rebuilt.

Of course, a lot of this probably resulted from the fact that I came out being, to some extent, quite more mature than my peers, who already are probably some of the more intelligent members of my generation. That isn't to be arrogant or anything: I think inherently wrestling with an issue like sexuality by nature makes you, by and large, a much more mature person.

I think that in some, it might have that effect... but I think in others it can have considerably different results.

True. But for me, and again, not to have a haughty attitude, but I think it did have that effect.

No worries.

There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

There are a couple of things going on, that I think you might benefit from becoming aware of. The first thing is that if people assumed you were straight, then even though you may have made no indication that you were or were not otherwise, to the extent that people believed you to be one "label" and you turned out to be another they are going to feel deceived -and people will take out the resentment for that deception by putting up a distance between you and them. It's not that they don't like you, it's that they didn't pick up on the fact that you were not straight and they don't know how to handle that... which leads me to to the second thing.

When someone like... let's just say Elton John came out, no one was surprised because we all more or less expected that he was gay. But, if people didn't know or at least didn't expect you to be gay, that makes them question how they understand sexuality. It should be that the similarities between you and others would be comforting to them, insofar as there's not much real, meaningful difference. The reality can be, though, that because of how similar you may be to... someone who is heterosexual, the fact that you would be otherwise indistinguishable from them makes them very nervous because it doesn't fit into how they understand sexuality and sexual identity.

There are others who, even though they probably love you and care about you, and even though because they love you and care about you and want you to be a part of their lives, have unresolved apprehension about homosexuality because it's not something they're used to. In that case, you have to be patient, and sympathetic on how hard it is for them to reconcile the fact that someone they care about is something they understand to be "wrong" or "unnatural, etc. I know that's a lot to ask, but the alternative is cutting them out of your life (bad idea, because if they want you to be a part of theirs, then you've just burnt a bridge) or keeping them at arms length too (also a bad idea, because they're going to judge you for judging them -even if you would be totally justified in doing so).

But ninja, the more people get used to the fact that you're not a hetero, the easier it will be for both you and them. Give it time.

I think that your observations are totally true. They are certainly thoughts I've had in my reflection of my situation. All the same, it's kind of frustrating. It's literally been multiple years, and you start to cry out in frustration, "How many years is enough!?" This is especially true when almost all of these people, people who I cherish so much, I'll probably be drifting from as high school comes to a close for us, here.

You probably will drift from your high school friends, and that will probably be a good thing. However, there are some people from my high school years that are still very much a part of my life... about five that I keep in touch with from high school. One has been a guy I have been more or less in love with since I was a junior. We're very close friends, but that's it.

That's what I've been expecting. All in all, there are probably only 3-5 people anyway who I genuinely, REALLY attached to, anyway.

You're going to college soon, too, right?
Ore_Ele
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11/4/2013 9:34:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:48:38 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:26:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

boo hoo, your life sucks!

JK, I resolved to say that before even reading further. Well, lets take a look.


Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

I know that you've already pushed through the hard part, but I have to ask. How much did you change when you came out? When I say "change" I mean, allow your true self come out? We you pretending more than just your sexuality? Like did you pretend to like stuff that maybe you didn't? Or pretend to not like stuff that you did?

Honestly, I'd say that it was the opposite. I didn't change at all, almost to a fault. Obviously, I stayed myself. But, in a sense, after I came out, I almost unconsciously went out of my way to avoid being TRULY open about my sexuality (ie, talking to friends about male crushes, or even ANY crushes, really) as being anything other than a trivial/intellectualized fact. I kind of pushed the genuine, heartfelt, honest elements of my sexuality deep down and refused to express them. While others pursued relationships/were open about who they liked, who they found attractive, etc. I eventually just kind of retreated in on myself when I noticed people reacting poorly when I would try and make a comment in passing or something. So basically, I became emotionally constipated when it came to expressing/dealing with my romantic/chemical feelings.

But I imagine that before you came out, you didn't talk to others about your crushes. I wonder if it was more that they realized that them talking about their crushes might make you feel uncomfortable and so they avoid it and in turn avoid you.

Anyway, whats past is past. Hopefully someday they will find themselves back in your life and say "hey man, not sure what happened that we drifted apart, but lets hang out some time" but if that doesn't come for 10 years or ever, I do hope that you find new friends that you can be honest and happy with and always leave a light on in case the others come back around.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Noumena
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11/4/2013 10:14:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

I think it all depends on who you surround yerself with. One of the reasons I waited until I did to come out was for fear of the consequences it would have on my relationship to my friends (among other reasons of course). I'm not sure if the language of cliques is still valid in describing HS circles but I surrounded myself with.....burnouts; burnouts of the variety who weren't exactly as accepting of that type of thing as most other people I went to school with (they were nothing short of an anomaly in our school being that people tend to refer to it as less of a HS and more of a loose congregation of stoners and twinks). Some things came up which allowed me an excuse to cut off those relationships completely, at which point I actually came out to my family and some other (non-affiliated) friends.

Things were a bit lonesome for a while but the decision to let that aspect of myself out allowed me to make sure the people I chose to associate myself with were accepting of it. It actually wasn't until after HS that I found a close-knit circle of friends who were not only accepting of that part of me, but who lovingly embraced it. My point is, perhaps, that it will happen in its own time. If you feel as though yer friends are keeping you at arms length because of this, establishing some sort of dialogue to resolve the issue might be worthwhile. And, if the attempt proves fruitless, carefully evaluating what you actually get out of those relationships might be a next step. Of course, I can't fully understand the subtleties of yer interpersonal relationships so forgive me if such a suggestion sounds too aggressive. I can only speak from my own experience.

Whatever you do of course, don't blame yerself. I have no sympathy for the idea that repressing or concealing such a comprehensive (though ultimately meaningless) aspect of one'd identity is acceptable for the sake of keeping people around (people who apparently give two shlts about such proclivities).
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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11/4/2013 10:57:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 10:14:08 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

I think it all depends on who you surround yerself with. One of the reasons I waited until I did to come out was for fear of the consequences it would have on my relationship to my friends (among other reasons of course). I'm not sure if the language of cliques is still valid in describing HS circles but I surrounded myself with.....burnouts; burnouts of the variety who weren't exactly as accepting of that type of thing as most other people I went to school with (they were nothing short of an anomaly in our school being that people tend to refer to it as less of a HS and more of a loose congregation of stoners and twinks). Some things came up which allowed me an excuse to cut off those relationships completely, at which point I actually came out to my family and some other (non-affiliated) friends.

Things were a bit lonesome for a while but the decision to let that aspect of myself out allowed me to make sure the people I chose to associate myself with were accepting of it. It actually wasn't until after HS that I found a close-knit circle of friends who were not only accepting of that part of me, but who lovingly embraced it. My point is, perhaps, that it will happen in its own time. If you feel as though yer friends are keeping you at arms length because of this, establishing some sort of dialogue to resolve the issue might be worthwhile. And, if the attempt proves fruitless, carefully evaluating what you actually get out of those relationships might be a next step. Of course, I can't fully understand the subtleties of yer interpersonal relationships so forgive me if such a suggestion sounds too aggressive. I can only speak from my own experience.

Whatever you do of course, don't blame yerself. I have no sympathy for the idea that repressing or concealing such a comprehensive (though ultimately meaningless) aspect of one'd identity is acceptable for the sake of keeping people around (people who apparently give two shlts about such proclivities).

When did you come out?
Noumena
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11/5/2013 9:36:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 10:57:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/4/2013 10:14:08 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

I think it all depends on who you surround yerself with. One of the reasons I waited until I did to come out was for fear of the consequences it would have on my relationship to my friends (among other reasons of course). I'm not sure if the language of cliques is still valid in describing HS circles but I surrounded myself with.....burnouts; burnouts of the variety who weren't exactly as accepting of that type of thing as most other people I went to school with (they were nothing short of an anomaly in our school being that people tend to refer to it as less of a HS and more of a loose congregation of stoners and twinks). Some things came up which allowed me an excuse to cut off those relationships completely, at which point I actually came out to my family and some other (non-affiliated) friends.

Things were a bit lonesome for a while but the decision to let that aspect of myself out allowed me to make sure the people I chose to associate myself with were accepting of it. It actually wasn't until after HS that I found a close-knit circle of friends who were not only accepting of that part of me, but who lovingly embraced it. My point is, perhaps, that it will happen in its own time. If you feel as though yer friends are keeping you at arms length because of this, establishing some sort of dialogue to resolve the issue might be worthwhile. And, if the attempt proves fruitless, carefully evaluating what you actually get out of those relationships might be a next step. Of course, I can't fully understand the subtleties of yer interpersonal relationships so forgive me if such a suggestion sounds too aggressive. I can only speak from my own experience.

Whatever you do of course, don't blame yerself. I have no sympathy for the idea that repressing or concealing such a comprehensive (though ultimately meaningless) aspect of one'd identity is acceptable for the sake of keeping people around (people who apparently give two shlts about such proclivities).

When did you come out?

Midway through my junior year of HS.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/5/2013 2:47:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Question for the gays: was it always brolust for you? Did you ever fantasize about females or vaginal sex growing up, or was your homosexuality completely natural for you? I would assume that a gay guy would experience some hetero impulses through cultural osmosis.

Is the thought of kissing/screwing females disgusting for you?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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11/5/2013 6:29:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 2:47:24 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Question for the gays: was it always brolust for you? Did you ever fantasize about females or vaginal sex growing up, or was your homosexuality completely natural for you? I would assume that a gay guy would experience some hetero impulses through cultural osmosis.

Is the thought of kissing/screwing females disgusting for you?

Well, I'm bisexual so...yes, I did, and no I don't. Although I definitely lean toward the gents.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
slo1
Posts: 4,312
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11/5/2013 6:39:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

First and foremost, don't put too much of this change in relationships on coming out. Any time there is a big change there is risk of changes to one's relationships with others. I've seen people get a big promotion and the entire dynamics change.

Look up what Trump said about all the people he thought were friends when he lost all his money.

Don't resent people who change their relationship with you for any reason. That will happen through out your entire life for good reasons and bad reasons. Another way to look at it is that you are just finding out who you really can trust.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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11/5/2013 6:47:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Summation:
People suck (not in the good way).

Comment:
Not everybody! Just, y'know...most people.....

And DDO loves you! (Well, except medic. I, uh, wouldn't go near his house. And probably also there's Sovereign and...y'know what, refer to the above. I'm shutting up now).

In all seriousness, though, and before I shut up--people do suck. But the one thing I've learned is, that says a hell of a lot more about them than you.

It's not that you really miss them--because apparently they're toolbags. It's that you miss the people you thought they were. Their real selves? Toolbags. Which doesn't help, so, again, shutting up and leaving the floor to those with life experience that might actually be of use.
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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11/5/2013 8:29:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

Hmmm...

I had a roommate that was bisexual, except he didn't tell me until the day he moved out. We were both quite busy and hung out with different crowds, so we weren't that close or anything beforehand, but we were on very good terms.

I always wondered how I would have reacted had he told me sometime BEFORE the day he moved out. I mean, I felt kind of flattered he felt he could share something like this with me (this was in the military under DADT, so this was kind of a big deal for anyone to admit), but I also wondered how I would have reacted as time went by had we continued to be roommates. I probably would have just not told anyone, assured him I would not, and life would have just gone on. Things would probably have gotten a bit awkward, as I would have had an inordinate amount of "power" in that there would always be the issue of me sharing that type of information with the "wrong people" that could have gotten him kicked out of the military. As it was, we went in different directions, and we didn't keep in touch.

Back to your situation, had I been one of your friends, I probably would have been someone that would have shaken your hand, but would have felt that we had less in common than before you came out. No offense meant, just how I would have seen the situation develop. I don't know if i would have "stayed on the other side of the room" because I tend to prize honesty and I would have seen you coming out as being a very strong statement about your proclivity towards honesty, but conversations would have been different, especially given how I remember some of the conversations I had in high school, lol.

=)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DetectableNinja
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11/5/2013 8:50:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 8:29:24 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

Hmmm...

I had a roommate that was bisexual, except he didn't tell me until the day he moved out. We were both quite busy and hung out with different crowds, so we weren't that close or anything beforehand, but we were on very good terms.

I always wondered how I would have reacted had he told me sometime BEFORE the day he moved out. I mean, I felt kind of flattered he felt he could share something like this with me (this was in the military under DADT, so this was kind of a big deal for anyone to admit), but I also wondered how I would have reacted as time went by had we continued to be roommates. I probably would have just not told anyone, assured him I would not, and life would have just gone on. Things would probably have gotten a bit awkward, as I would have had an inordinate amount of "power" in that there would always be the issue of me sharing that type of information with the "wrong people" that could have gotten him kicked out of the military. As it was, we went in different directions, and we didn't keep in touch.

Back to your situation, had I been one of your friends, I probably would have been someone that would have shaken your hand, but would have felt that we had less in common than before you came out. No offense meant, just how I would have seen the situation develop. I don't know if i would have "stayed on the other side of the room" because I tend to prize honesty and I would have seen you coming out as being a very strong statement about your proclivity towards honesty, but conversations would have been different, especially given how I remember some of the conversations I had in high school, lol.

=)

Understandable. I just think it's kind of...a shame that people are unable, whether purposely or not, to deliver on what they claim to believe.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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11/5/2013 9:45:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 8:50:26 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 11/5/2013 8:29:24 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:12:19 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Warning: this might end up sounding kind of whiny/boo-my-life-sucks, and I apologize in advance for it. Just need to vent.

Two and a half years or so after coming out, I think it's fascinating exactly how unready so many people are to really, and I mean REALLY, accept it. Of course, I was greeted with the usual rigamorale and fanfare - cries of people being proud, assurances that nothing would change, that people loved me, cared - but then, after the purple cloud lifted after a few days, things changed. I ended up being put at an arm's length from everyone I knew, it seemed. There were/are the few exceptions, the people who were genuine, who truly and absolutely accept me. But to pretty much everyone, I became the mysterious Other. The one to not really talk to in depth, for fear of me talking about a boy or something. I basically was forced to clam up, even afraid to talk to the precious few who wouldn't mind. Although now I'm little by little starting to come out of the shell, it's extremely difficult. And, although it might be an extreme statement to make, I feel cheated. I thought coming out would be like turning over a new leaf, and things would start to get better. But I might as well have been in the closet all the way until now. I never really showed my true colors; hell, never even expressed the "straight" side of me. Just kind of ended up as a wallflower.

This is starting to change, like I said. It IS starting to get better. But I can't help but feel so much pent up resentment for those who called me a friend, but stayed on the other side of the room; those who said I was still like a brother, but then kept me at a distance. But I also feel resentment toward myself. I feel like I, in conspiracy with the other people, robbed myself of a chance at feeling accepted. I, and they, otherized me.

Funny how cheap words are.

Hmmm...

I had a roommate that was bisexual, except he didn't tell me until the day he moved out. We were both quite busy and hung out with different crowds, so we weren't that close or anything beforehand, but we were on very good terms.

I always wondered how I would have reacted had he told me sometime BEFORE the day he moved out. I mean, I felt kind of flattered he felt he could share something like this with me (this was in the military under DADT, so this was kind of a big deal for anyone to admit), but I also wondered how I would have reacted as time went by had we continued to be roommates. I probably would have just not told anyone, assured him I would not, and life would have just gone on. Things would probably have gotten a bit awkward, as I would have had an inordinate amount of "power" in that there would always be the issue of me sharing that type of information with the "wrong people" that could have gotten him kicked out of the military. As it was, we went in different directions, and we didn't keep in touch.

Back to your situation, had I been one of your friends, I probably would have been someone that would have shaken your hand, but would have felt that we had less in common than before you came out. No offense meant, just how I would have seen the situation develop. I don't know if i would have "stayed on the other side of the room" because I tend to prize honesty and I would have seen you coming out as being a very strong statement about your proclivity towards honesty, but conversations would have been different, especially given how I remember some of the conversations I had in high school, lol.

=)

Understandable. I just think it's kind of...a shame that people are unable, whether purposely or not, to deliver on what they claim to believe.

I will simply note that there's nothing hypocritical in my statements above, even if I was initially friendly only to become more distant in the future.

Perhaps there is also nothing hypocritical about the actions from your friends, and perhaps there is only an issue of miscommunication or unwarranted expectations.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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11/6/2013 9:21:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I hate to bump, but I'm curious on hearing any other opinions. so...bump, I guess.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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11/7/2013 2:08:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Tbh its a marvel you found few people who stood by you and their words in high school. Not to sound pretentious, but most of the kids in high school aren't really tuned into their principles and philosophy and the likes to stand by their words. Its more of a social scramble egging everyone in every direction. I doubt their reaction is about you, its more about them. People usually find themselves once they graduate, high school is an awfully protected environment to be in tune with ones inner self. I'm glad things are getting better, and trust me when I say in all likelihood, they should only get better with time.

I think the most important thing I learnt at high school was that fitting in was the absolutely worst thing I could ever do to my personal growth. Subverting certain parts of your personality in normal daily life because of unfavourable social reactions is very mentally draining, not because its an effort ( Its just another few minutes of quite), but because of the implication it has on your psych- that you're not good enough for the world and thus need to pretend in order to fit in.

All in all, what you described here is a normal reflection of a person. Its progressive.
Cermank
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11/7/2013 2:19:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 2:08:54 AM, Cermank wrote:
Tbh its a marvel you found few people who stood by you and their words in high school. Not to sound pretentious, but most of the kids in high school aren't really tuned into their principles and philosophy and the likes to stand by their words. Its more of a social scramble egging everyone in every direction. I doubt their reaction is about you, its more about them. People usually find themselves once they graduate, high school is an awfully protected environment to be in tune with ones inner self. I'm glad things are getting better, and trust me when I say in all likelihood, they should only get better with time.

I think the most important thing I learnt at high school was that fitting in was the absolutely worst thing I could ever do to my personal growth. Subverting certain parts of your personality in normal daily life because of unfavourable social reactions is very mentally draining, not because its an effort ( Its just another few minutes of quite), but because of the implication it has on your psych- that you're not good enough for the world and thus need to pretend in order to fit in.

All in all, what you described here is a normal reflection of a *socially well adjusted person. Its progressive.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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11/7/2013 6:50:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I sit at the back of my psychology class (which is actually where the swats sit when you're studying psychology) and I've been playing an awful lot of games. One of them though is just testing the perception of the subconscious and it is profound. I draw attention to myself (easily done - lots of girls and guys very interested in controlling me in my class) and then I flick the vestigial switch and measure reactions. Basically, I move and they move. Ehhh, basically everybody starts out trying to mimic others physically and that habit never really goes away. When they're thinking about you, i.e. trying to control you, if you move physically, they'll mimic you pretty much involuntarily. But yeah, testing. It's profound. Again, I sit at the back of the class, these people can't see me, and yet just in thinking about me they'll move almost exactly as I move. What the f*ck is going on there? Is air pressure being taken into account or what? And then just think about how much you're really hiding from the person sitting across from you. I personally think people fit together like jigsaw pieces, only our possible connections aren't set in stone, but dependent on the greatest pull/push. I think if you worry too much about whatever that you'll pull that whatever out of a person. Why that is, I don't know. Perhaps self-justification? But just think about it..........and learn to be a god.