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Am I bigoted?

Eitan_Zohar
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11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/6/2013 8:57:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

To be sure that I'm not misinterpreting or misrepresenting yer thesis:

>That transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with someone who doesn't have explicit knowledge of their aforementioned trans-sexuality.

Well, a few questions before one could know for sure.

>What do you mean by "shouldn't"? Inscribed into law? Encoded in social norms? Prescribed as a general rule of thumb?
>What is the punishment for failing to abide by this rule? Legal penalties? Civil action? Death? Ostracization? Financial compensation?
>Is failing to explicitly mention their 'condition' the same, to you, as explicitly lying about their 'condition'? If so, why? And if not, how would this effect the above question as to the punishment for breaking yer rule? Would it be the same or contingent on the 'level of deceitfulness'?
>Does yer rule apply to both pre-op and post-op transsexuals? Also, relay the above question as to the separation or unification of punishments derivable from both contingencies.
>Are there other forms of 'sexual deceitfulness' (or general deceitfulness even) you find comparable or analogous to failing to mention/lying about being transgendered? For instance, should partners disclose whether or not they're attracted to a sex opposite of the person they're engaging in intercourse with? Do you find analogous the transmission of STD's via omission to the transmission of 'distress' (or whatever you'd call it) as a result of being with a transgendered person?
>Why would being with a transgendered person cause you anguish? (This question isn't meant as a loaded one, I'm curious as it related to the possibility of bigotry on yer part)
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,364
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11/6/2013 1:37:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You can feel however you want. I'm confident that given the right plastic surgeon, you wouldn't be able to tell... so that's something to consider.

But it's the age old question... If one dude has sex with a transexual woman does that make the dude gay? No.

It goes to what we think of gender (social construct/role) and sex (biology). If you buy into the idea -as most people in the medical field now do- that nature can, at times, make mistakes and give a person the wrong "parts" then to be a transexual isn't to trick anyone, it's to correct a biological mistake -so it's not that you would be fooled so much as you would be seeing the "real" person, in that the parts would "line up" with the 'real' gender...
Tsar of DDO
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/6/2013 1:50:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

It isn't bigoted to want to know intimate details about a person, their history, their identity, before having sex.

It is bigoted to only apply that rule to a certain class of people for no good reason.
Cermank
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11/6/2013 3:02:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's a difference between 'no one should have sex with transexual woman who hasn't revealed her nature' and ' I don't want to have sex with trans sexual woman'. The bigotedness depends on your pick.

Plus, the identity of a transexual person is much more than her sexual endevours. Sexual preference is usually arbitrary.
Ore_Ele
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11/6/2013 3:40:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

I don't think it is "bigoted" though I would strongly disagree with it. I would be more for that someone shouldn't be allowed to lie about it to get sex, but if it never comes up, I see no reason for them to pause and say "hey, don't worry about the rubber Imabench, 'cause Imadude!" (I couldn't pass that up)

But if you're just out looking for a one night stand and not looking at the person as a person with a past and a personality and interests and fears, but just as "oh, I might get sex tonight" then I see no reason why they should have to have a disclaimer. If you are not really interested in who they are, then that sounds like a personal problem.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/6/2013 4:27:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:57:49 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

To be sure that I'm not misinterpreting or misrepresenting yer thesis:

>That transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with someone who doesn't have explicit knowledge of their aforementioned trans-sexuality.

Well, a few questions before one could know for sure.

>What do you mean by "shouldn't"? Inscribed into law? Encoded in social norms? Prescribed as a general rule of thumb?

The latter two. It couldn't be enforced.

>What is the punishment for failing to abide by this rule? Legal penalties? Civil action? Death? Ostracization? Financial compensation?

What is the penalty for failing to uphold basic social norms?

>Is failing to explicitly mention their 'condition' the same, to you, as explicitly lying about their 'condition'? If so, why? And if not, how would this effect the above question as to the punishment for breaking yer rule? Would it be the same or contingent on the 'level of deceitfulness'?

It would. If I was approached while in an appropriate context (loitering by the gay club), then obviously it wouldn't apply.

>Does yer rule apply to both pre-op and post-op transsexuals?

Both (how would I even be fooled by a pre-op?).

Also, relay the above question as to the separation or unification of punishments derivable from both contingencies.

This is what I mean about the philosophical jargon cluttering up your speech. I could distangle your intended meaning, with effort, but what's the point? I know a continental philosopher who has great prose and always manages to make difficult concepts sound intuitive. So why can't an analytic do the same? Isn't that what you pride yourselves on?

>Are there other forms of 'sexual deceitfulness' (or general deceitfulness even) you find comparable or analogous to failing to mention/lying about being transgendered? For instance, should partners disclose whether or not they're attracted to a sex opposite of the person they're engaging in intercourse with?

Well, for now they should, because gays are indeed more likely to contract STDs and whatnot from intercourse with other guys. But in principle, no. There's nothing different about having sex with a homosexual that demands some sort of scrutiny. If a girl likes naked mud-wrestling with other females, it doesn't affect our sex in the slightest.

As for the other question, I think that there should be many examples. Basically anything that A) is reasonably significant and (B) directly impacts the sex I intend to have. I can't really name anything, but I don't know anything about sex. Any sort of feature or quirk that is considered socially heinous would serve.

Do you find analogous the transmission of STD's via omission to the transmission of 'distress' (or whatever you'd call it) as a result of being with a transgendered person?

Of course not.

>Why would being with a transgendered person cause you anguish? (This question isn't meant as a loaded one, I'm curious as it related to the possibility of bigotry on yer part)

Even if they looked perfectly female, I couldn't stand the idea of looking into the eyes of the person I'm having sex with and knowing they are dude eyes, with a dude mind behind it (I've heard stories of people getting tricked like this). Even if psychologists could show that transsexual minds were generally similar to their chosen gender, I still couldn't take the idea. Call me insecure, call me homophobic, but I don't believe I will ever be able to tolerate it unless there was a pill to make me bisexual (which I would tentatively experiment with).
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/6/2013 4:37:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 1:37:31 PM, YYW wrote:
You can feel however you want. I'm confident that given the right plastic surgeon, you wouldn't be able to tell... so that's something to consider.

I could probably tell while having sex, but I don't think that will apply in twenty years' time.

But it's the age old question... If one dude has sex with a transexual woman does that make the dude gay? No.

It goes to what we think of gender (social construct/role) and sex (biology). If you buy into the idea -as most people in the medical field now do- that nature can, at times, make mistakes and give a person the wrong "parts" then to be a transexual isn't to trick anyone, it's to correct a biological mistake -so it's not that you would be fooled so much as you would be seeing the "real" person, in that the parts would "line up" with the 'real' gender...

I think that this is quite an oversimplification, and even if you're right, biology is still very difficult to overcome.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/6/2013 4:37:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 1:50:11 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

It isn't bigoted to want to know intimate details about a person, their history, their identity, before having sex.

It is bigoted to only apply that rule to a certain class of people for no good reason.

What about Asians? I've never been attracted to Asians. Am I racist?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/6/2013 4:38:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 3:02:44 PM, Cermank wrote:
There's a difference between 'no one should have sex with transexual woman who hasn't revealed her nature' and ' I don't want to have sex with trans sexual woman'. The bigotedness depends on your pick.

Plus, the identity of a transexual person is much more than her sexual endevours. Sexual preference is usually arbitrary.

So? That's not relevant to me.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
Posts: 36,364
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11/6/2013 4:47:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 4:37:09 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/6/2013 1:37:31 PM, YYW wrote:
You can feel however you want. I'm confident that given the right plastic surgeon, you wouldn't be able to tell... so that's something to consider.

I could probably tell while having sex, but I don't think that will apply in twenty years' time.

Maybe you could. But it's a lot easier (and far more convincing) to make a man a woman than make a woman a man... so there's that.

But it's the age old question... If one dude has sex with a transexual woman does that make the dude gay? No.

It goes to what we think of gender (social construct/role) and sex (biology). If you buy into the idea -as most people in the medical field now do- that nature can, at times, make mistakes and give a person the wrong "parts" then to be a transexual isn't to trick anyone, it's to correct a biological mistake -so it's not that you would be fooled so much as you would be seeing the "real" person, in that the parts would "line up" with the 'real' gender...

I think that this is quite an oversimplification, and even if you're right, biology is still very difficult to overcome.

When you're in college, you need to take a human sexuality class.
Tsar of DDO
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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11/6/2013 6:05:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 4:37:58 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/6/2013 1:50:11 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

It isn't bigoted to want to know intimate details about a person, their history, their identity, before having sex.

It is bigoted to only apply that rule to a certain class of people for no good reason.

What about Asians? I've never been attracted to Asians. Am I racist?

No. Then again, you aren't accusing Asians of automatically being complicit in some sort of nefarious activity such as "tricking" you.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/6/2013 8:24:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Did Ethan just call me Analytic?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Andromeda_Z
Posts: 4,151
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11/6/2013 8:45:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's reasonable to want to have a level of trust with your partner such that they'd tell you something like that before you had sex (there's always some level of trust involved and everyone has their own level that's necessary), but if you think that everyone should abide by that principle, then yeah, I'd consider that bigoted.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/6/2013 9:01:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:24:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
Did Ethan just call me Analytic?

1. This in no way constitutes a response, which I would appreciate.

2. What are you, then?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
thett3
Posts: 14,372
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11/6/2013 9:05:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 4:37:58 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/6/2013 1:50:11 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

It isn't bigoted to want to know intimate details about a person, their history, their identity, before having sex.

It is bigoted to only apply that rule to a certain class of people for no good reason.

What about Asians? I've never been attracted to Asians. Am I racist?

Yes you racist round-eye lover
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/6/2013 10:08:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No, I don't think that counts as bigoted. You have the right to be selective with your mates-there's nothing wrong with that. You might as well say that it's bigoted to not sleep with unattractive people or to not sleep with homosexual people if you are not homosexual.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/6/2013 10:25:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you aren't paying for it, it isn't fraud.

If you pay a prostitute and find out later they weren't your intended gender, yes, financial compensation is due.

Otherwise, you might as well outlaw dishonesty in all forms.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/6/2013 11:23:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 10:25:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If you aren't paying for it, it isn't fraud.

So what if someone lies to you about having HIV or you end up marrying a transgendered person? I think that's totally unreasonable. People have the right to decide what sorts of lives they want to lead, and allowing people to lie and deceive in order to obtain some selfish end is definitely not ok. In this context, I would definitely consider it rape. (Yes, lying to trick someone into sleeping with you is rape because the consent was not informed consent).
Atrag
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11/7/2013 3:07:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

Some things about someone are private and you have no right to know them before beginning a sexual relationship. I don't want to have sex with anyone who earns under 30k, who has criminal conviction or who has been divorced. However, I have no right to this information and, conversely, they have every right to keep this information private.

Saying that though, you are not bigoted for not wanting to have sex with someone who was born a man - its just that you have no right to know that information.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/7/2013 10:57:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 9:01:36 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/6/2013 8:24:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
Did Ethan just call me Analytic?

1. This in no way constitutes a response, which I would appreciate.

To the original question? I dunno probably.

2. What are you, then?

I guess Continental. What about the way (or things) I write seems "Analytic" to you?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/8/2013 12:34:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 11:23:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/6/2013 10:25:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If you aren't paying for it, it isn't fraud.

So what if someone lies to you about having HIV or you end up marrying a transgendered person? I think that's totally unreasonable. People have the right to decide what sorts of lives they want to lead, and allowing people to lie and deceive in order to obtain some selfish end is definitely not ok. In this context, I would definitely consider it rape. (Yes, lying to trick someone into sleeping with you is rape because the consent was not informed consent).

This seems apt. http://cocoafab.com...
yang.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/8/2013 11:03:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 12:34:39 AM, tulle wrote:
At 11/6/2013 11:23:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/6/2013 10:25:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If you aren't paying for it, it isn't fraud.

So what if someone lies to you about having HIV or you end up marrying a transgendered person? I think that's totally unreasonable. People have the right to decide what sorts of lives they want to lead, and allowing people to lie and deceive in order to obtain some selfish end is definitely not ok. In this context, I would definitely consider it rape. (Yes, lying to trick someone into sleeping with you is rape because the consent was not informed consent).

This seems apt. http://cocoafab.com...

I don't see a problem with this. She shouldn't have lied.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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11/8/2013 11:08:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh, and before you accuse me of being shallow, keep in mind that I am not saying that I would select someone purely on the basis of looks. All I am saying is that people have the right to do that. Also, I bet you have standards for looks too, so don't be a hypocrite please. One thing I have noticed lately is that a lot of girls condemn guys for having standards . . . while simultaneously having standards themselves. There is nothing wrong with either sex having standards. :)
Eitan_Zohar
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11/9/2013 9:12:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 10:57:18 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/6/2013 9:01:36 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/6/2013 8:24:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
Did Ethan just call me Analytic?

1. This in no way constitutes a response, which I would appreciate.

To the original question? I dunno probably.

Am I bigoted?

2. What are you, then?

I guess Continental. What about the way (or things) I write seems "Analytic" to you?

Your technical jargon and your long, drawn out over-analysis that manages to defy both intuition and common sense.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/9/2013 11:39:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
@royal---you're making a lot of assumptions right now so don't embarrass yourself. I made zero judgements or normative statements in that post...? You don't even know if I agree with you.
yang.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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11/9/2013 11:49:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I feel that transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to have sex with men (or women) without them knowing it. I support gay marriage, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them having gay sex, but I never, ever want to be intimate with one myself, and I don't think that they should trick me into thinking that they were born female. Is it wrong that I feel this way?

The question becomes why you would have sex with a person that you knew so little about, to include something as important to that person and to the act of sex as their views on sexuality and gender?

IMHO the only time you or anyone else would have sex under such circumstances is if you didn't want to know in the first place, that you didn't care except that you saw a pretty face and a hot body, and were more than likely going to forget salient details about the person, so your situation is generally not a problem...unless of course if word got out that you unknowingly engaged in such behavior, when you did not want word to get out about it. All of this of course makes it imperative that you know what you are doing, and if you don't, it's your own damned fault.

Is it bigoted? Sure, you're obviously bigoted towards transsexuals.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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11/9/2013 11:55:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 12:34:39 AM, tulle wrote:
At 11/6/2013 11:23:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 11/6/2013 10:25:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If you aren't paying for it, it isn't fraud.

So what if someone lies to you about having HIV or you end up marrying a transgendered person? I think that's totally unreasonable. People have the right to decide what sorts of lives they want to lead, and allowing people to lie and deceive in order to obtain some selfish end is definitely not ok. In this context, I would definitely consider it rape. (Yes, lying to trick someone into sleeping with you is rape because the consent was not informed consent).

This seems apt. http://cocoafab.com...

The website makes it clear that there is no corroborating evidence that the story is true. Also, the before/after pics on the website are no longer available.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?