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What should I do?

Fanath
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4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.
Dude... Stop...
philochristos
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4/18/2014 10:17:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
That's a tough one. Considering the fact that she disowned your brother, I'd probably keep it to myself and play along until you're old enough to leave home.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

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Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/18/2014 10:43:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

I'm really sorry to hear. Perhaps you should talk to your brother about it, he will probably have a better picture of what you should do than we can give you. As we don't know your families' ties. If you haven't outed to your brother yet I think that would be the best place to start, you Mum might be more accepting if she realizes indirectly that way and you have something to fall back on if anything does go wrong.

Do you have any other family who don't share your Mum's beliefs? Jewish etc? It might be easier asking them about it, too.
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SeventhProfessor
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4/18/2014 11:27:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

You should just keep it to yerself, except maybe talk to yer brother about it.
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ESocialBookworm
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4/18/2014 1:57:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

I'm going to go with the clich" and slam my head into a table for doing so:

Follow your heart... :)

I'll keep you in my prayers buddy!
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Ore_Ele
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4/18/2014 2:00:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

Well, let's stop and rationally look at the two options. You can either...

A) Put on a happy face for your Mom and lie all the way through it until you are moved out.

B) Tell her that you are an Atheist and won't be partaking in those actions.

What are the consequences and benefits of each choice?
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Fanath
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4/18/2014 4:00:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 1:57:20 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

I'm going to go with the clich" and slam my head into a table for doing so:

Follow your heart... :)


That helps.

I'll keep you in my prayers buddy!

Thanks I guess, if god is real i don't think he'd be very supportive of helping someone not pray for him, lol.
Dude... Stop...
Fanath
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4/18/2014 4:11:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 2:00:17 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

Well, let's stop and rationally look at the two options. You can either...

A) Put on a happy face for your Mom and lie all the way through it until you are moved out.

Consequences: Worshiping something that I don't believe to be true for 2 hours on every Sunday for 4 years. It would be like a Christian worshipping Zeus.

Benefits: The consequences of option B wouldn't have any impact on me, unless I went crazy and admitted it.

B) Tell her that you are an Atheist and won't be partaking in those actions.


Consequences: She could either look past it or dislike me greatly. Also could result in a long talk, which would lead to an argument, etc. Potentially sent to a school to learn about Jesus...

Benefits: The consequences of option A wouldn't happen to me.
What are the consequences and benefits of each choice?
Dude... Stop...
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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4/18/2014 4:19:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

I'm sorry to hear of this situation. I think given the circumstances, just go and do what she says until your of age to decide what to do from there. But at the same time, be open-minded. I hope the best!
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Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/18/2014 4:25:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 4:11:55 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:00:17 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
B) Tell her that you are an Atheist and won't be partaking in those actions.


Consequences: She could either look past it or dislike me greatly. Also could result in a long talk, which would lead to an argument, etc. Potentially sent to a school to learn about Jesus...

You live in the states? I thought the states have no religious state schools?

You could also take the edge off it and say you are just a 'non believer or non-theist, probably the former' and just refer to yourself as that. Since atheist as I understand it carries a lot of baggage in the states
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Fanath
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4/18/2014 5:07:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 4:25:09 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 4/18/2014 4:11:55 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:00:17 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
B) Tell her that you are an Atheist and won't be partaking in those actions.


Consequences: She could either look past it or dislike me greatly. Also could result in a long talk, which would lead to an argument, etc. Potentially sent to a school to learn about Jesus...

You live in the states? I thought the states have no religious state schools?

the church has a small school built into it. There's also church camps offered as well.

You could also take the edge off it and say you are just a 'non believer or non-theist, probably the former' and just refer to yourself as that. Since atheist as I understand it carries a lot of baggage in the states

No kidding... Some people will try to argue with you all the time if they find out...

Or, would it work if I pretended to be Jewish or something other than Christian instead? With that, I wouldn't have to go to church but I wouldn't have a belief my mom thinks is "evil".
Dude... Stop...
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

Why are you an atheist?
Tsar of DDO
Fanath
Posts: 830
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4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l
Dude... Stop...
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.
Tsar of DDO
Fanath
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4/18/2014 5:56:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.

What else would prove gods existence? Proof of god being real is put into arguments. Miracles for example.

Otherwise, do you have any evidence that god is real? As Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well"
Dude... Stop...
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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4/18/2014 6:01:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:56:56 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.

What else would prove gods existence? Proof of god being real is put into arguments. Miracles for example.

Why do you think God's existence needs to be proven?

Otherwise, do you have any evidence that god is real? As Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well"

Yeah, Hitchens did say that. And when it comes to falsifiable statements (statements that some proposal or claim's having the potential to be proven not the case, given some conceivable piece of evidence), I tend to agree with him. But, claims of God's existence... that's a different kind of idea than something like "gravity is a thing" or "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/18/2014 6:05:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:01:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:56:56 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.

What else would prove gods existence? Proof of god being real is put into arguments. Miracles for example.

Why do you think God's existence needs to be proven?

Otherwise, do you have any evidence that god is real? As Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well"

Yeah, Hitchens did say that. And when it comes to falsifiable statements (statements that some proposal or claim's having the potential to be proven not the case, given some conceivable piece of evidence), I tend to agree with him. But, claims of God's existence... that's a different kind of idea than something like "gravity is a thing" or "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

I've always wondered why you think "X entity exists" is not a falsifiable claim.

Can you explain how you see god differently than, say, unicorns? After all, I think we'd all admit that unicorns MIGHT exist, certainly possibly on another planet. Yet we don't believe in unicorns, or put value in having faith in them without evidence. So why is the concept of God different?
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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4/18/2014 6:08:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Tell her that you believe in Calvinism and that you in fact are not one of the chosen elect. Therefore it is a waste of time for you to pray and go to church. It solves everything. If that fails report her to child services and go find a family that is not cray cray. If you parents are willing to disown you for what you believe or who you are, I would give them a prompt fuk you.
Fanath
Posts: 830
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4/18/2014 6:13:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:01:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:56:56 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.

What else would prove gods existence? Proof of god being real is put into arguments. Miracles for example.

Why do you think God's existence needs to be proven?

If there isn't any reason to believe in a god then why would I believe in him?

Otherwise, do you have any evidence that god is real? As Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well"

Yeah, Hitchens did say that. And when it comes to falsifiable statements (statements that some proposal or claim's having the potential to be proven not the case, given some conceivable piece of evidence), I tend to agree with him. But, claims of God's existence... that's a different kind of idea than something like "gravity is a thing" or "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

There's proof that those statements are true though. That's why it would seem so ludicrous to say those statements have the potential to be proven not to be the case.

If anything, Hitchens quote is strengthened with god. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,
Dude... Stop...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/18/2014 6:14:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 4:11:55 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:00:17 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

Well, let's stop and rationally look at the two options. You can either...

A) Put on a happy face for your Mom and lie all the way through it until you are moved out.

Consequences: Worshiping something that I don't believe to be true for 2 hours on every Sunday for 4 years. It would be like a Christian worshipping Zeus.

Benefits: The consequences of option B wouldn't have any impact on me, unless I went crazy and admitted it.

B) Tell her that you are an Atheist and won't be partaking in those actions.


Consequences: She could either look past it or dislike me greatly. Also could result in a long talk, which would lead to an argument, etc. Potentially sent to a school to learn about Jesus...

Benefits: The consequences of option A wouldn't happen to me.
What are the consequences and benefits of each choice?

And which of those is worse?
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Fanath
Posts: 830
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4/18/2014 6:17:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:14:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 4:11:55 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:00:17 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
My mom is insisting that we start to go to church again, pray to god before every meal, and thinks I should pray before going to bed every night....

The problem with this is that I'm an atheist, but she doesn't actually know it. When my brother came out as an agnostic, she pretty much disowned him.

Should I just stay quite and say the prayers? Or should I actually tell her my beliefs?

She pretty much thinks atheism is an abomination to mankind.

Well, let's stop and rationally look at the two options. You can either...

A) Put on a happy face for your Mom and lie all the way through it until you are moved out.

Consequences: Worshiping something that I don't believe to be true for 2 hours on every Sunday for 4 years. It would be like a Christian worshipping Zeus.

Benefits: The consequences of option B wouldn't have any impact on me, unless I went crazy and admitted it.

B) Tell her that you are an Atheist and won't be partaking in those actions.


Consequences: She could either look past it or dislike me greatly. Also could result in a long talk, which would lead to an argument, etc. Potentially sent to a school to learn about Jesus...

Benefits: The consequences of option A wouldn't happen to me.
What are the consequences and benefits of each choice?

And which of those is worse?

It depends how harsh the consequences of option B are. She could either look past it, or could go as far as just ignoring me.

It has the potential of both.
Dude... Stop...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/18/2014 6:19:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:13:32 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 6:01:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:56:56 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.

What else would prove gods existence? Proof of god being real is put into arguments. Miracles for example.

Why do you think God's existence needs to be proven?

If there isn't any reason to believe in a god then why would I believe in him?

Proof =/= reason to believe

Otherwise, do you have any evidence that god is real? As Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well"

Yeah, Hitchens did say that. And when it comes to falsifiable statements (statements that some proposal or claim's having the potential to be proven not the case, given some conceivable piece of evidence), I tend to agree with him. But, claims of God's existence... that's a different kind of idea than something like "gravity is a thing" or "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

There's proof that those statements are true though. That's why it would seem so ludicrous to say those statements have the potential to be proven not to be the case.

If anything, Hitchens quote is strengthened with god. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,

If you can dismiss something with no evidence, someone can assert it with no evidence. Hitchen's quote has nothing to do with logic or what is true. It only has to do with how to deal with the fact that there is more information out in the world than a single person can rationally cope with, so rather than wasting your entire life finding proofs and evidence for simple things (or against simple and obvious things), it makes a quick way to identify what you should focus your time on as far as finding evidence.
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sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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4/18/2014 6:22:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You get to have and express your own beliefs when you pay your own bills. Until then, you have to fake it if you want to keep your free lunch. Life is tuff, get used to it. Even when you are an adult and pay your own bills you will still have to eat crow if you want to keep your job that pays your bills. This is as old as time itself. Don't think you are the first generation to experience this or the last.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
YYW
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4/18/2014 6:26:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:05:29 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/18/2014 6:01:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:56:56 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.

What else would prove gods existence? Proof of god being real is put into arguments. Miracles for example.

Why do you think God's existence needs to be proven?

Otherwise, do you have any evidence that god is real? As Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well"

Yeah, Hitchens did say that. And when it comes to falsifiable statements (statements that some proposal or claim's having the potential to be proven not the case, given some conceivable piece of evidence), I tend to agree with him. But, claims of God's existence... that's a different kind of idea than something like "gravity is a thing" or "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

I've always wondered why you think "X entity exists" is not a falsifiable claim.

It's not "x entity exists" is not a falsifiable claim. What makes that particular claim falsifiable or not is the 'kind' of entity we're talking about. If 'x' were a physical entity, then, sure, it's falsifiable. But if 'x' is not falsifiable, then we can't disprove it... we also can't prove it.

Can you explain how you see god differently than, say, unicorns?

As we talk about unicorns, they're the kind of being that would be physically apparent on earth if they existed. They're not physically apparent and all possibility of their being physically apparent (at least on this earth) has been exhausted, so... they don't exist. But, one could also say that unicorns are the stuff of fairy tales and, metaphysically, there's not much difference between religion and fairy tales. We can't prove that Zeus or Thor don't exist, much in the same way that I can't say some weird unicorn sprite thing or whatever it is doesn't exist. But, I'd say that, for the sake of discussion, we can draw a line (even if it's only a cultural distinction) between religion and the stuff of fairy tales.

After all, I think we'd all admit that unicorns MIGHT exist, certainly possibly on another planet.

Sure, and if you want to believe in the potential for unicorns to exist, believe that they're all knowing and all powerful, worship them as gods and derive your sense of faith from them, that's you're prerogative. I can't disprove you, either.

Yet we don't believe in unicorns, or put value in having faith in them without evidence.

You could. It'd be a fairly absurd religion, but you certainly could.

So why is the concept of God different?

If we accept that both God and unicorns are both metaphysical things, then the difference exists in the fact that individual people chose to have faith and God and not unicorns as a general rule. (I recognize that there might be some who believe in unicorns and centralize their notions of metaphysical truth around them, but I think we can agree that those people are not the majority.)

My only point is that there is no rational reason to believe in God. There is no falsifiable, verifiable or empirical evidence of any kind for God. Any belief in any god must therefore be taken on the basis of faith, and can be done on the basis of faith alone. There are some (Catholics and dogmatic apologists) who believe that Christianity is a faith wanting of reason. Maybe... but the idea that God even exists must be first taken on the basis of faith because there is no other way.

One could also believe in unicorns on faith alone, and if someone did believe in unicorns, that's 'how' they'd have to do it of necessity. But, even if some people do, that doesn't undercut faith or religion's legitimacy as faith or religion. It just means that we get to chose what we believe or not believe -and that's significant to recognize. Even more significant to realize, however, is that not believing in God because "there is no evidence for God's existence" isn't quite a reason -because there couldn't be evidence for God's existence, by the very nature of what it means to be God. Consequently, the atheists who don't believe in God "because there isn't an argument that sufficiently proves God's existence" are, in an intellectual sense, barking up the wrong tree.
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YYW
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4/18/2014 6:29:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:13:32 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 6:01:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:56:56 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:33:49 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:26:54 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:09:02 AM, Fanath wrote:
Why are you an atheist?

Because...

1. None of the arguments for god succeed in proving that he's real. This would mean I wouldn't have any reason to believe in him in the first place.

Why are you hoping for an argument to prove god's existence?

2. There isn't a need for a god in order to explain the mechanics of our universe. Our universe is what we would expect to see if there was no god.

That's certainly something to think about, but let's table that for mow.

3. God would have to be either incredibly lazy, or evil if he existed. This wouldn't fit the Catholic god description..l

Hmmm... That's something to think about as well, but for now I'm just interested in why you think that arguments are needed to prove God's existence.

What else would prove gods existence? Proof of god being real is put into arguments. Miracles for example.

Why do you think God's existence needs to be proven?

If there isn't any reason to believe in a god then why would I believe in him?

That doesn't exactly answer my question. Why do you think God's existence needs to be proven? But, even prior to that, how could you "prove" God's existence?

Otherwise, do you have any evidence that god is real? As Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well"

Yeah, Hitchens did say that. And when it comes to falsifiable statements (statements that some proposal or claim's having the potential to be proven not the case, given some conceivable piece of evidence), I tend to agree with him. But, claims of God's existence... that's a different kind of idea than something like "gravity is a thing" or "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

There's proof that those statements are true though.

Yep.

That's why it would seem so ludicrous to say those statements have the potential to be proven not to be the case.

Ah, but it is conceivable that, given some piece of evidence, we could falsify them. That's what it means to be 'falsifiable.'

If anything, Hitchens quote is strengthened with god. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,

What if I told you that metaphysical claims cannot be proven by physical evidence...
Tsar of DDO
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/18/2014 6:33:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:26:37 PM, YYW wrote:

It's not "x entity exists" is not a falsifiable claim. What makes that particular claim falsifiable or not is the 'kind' of entity we're talking about. If 'x' were a physical entity, then, sure, it's falsifiable. But if 'x' is not falsifiable, then we can't disprove it... we also can't prove it.

Can you explain how you see god differently than, say, unicorns?

As we talk about unicorns, they're the kind of being that would be physically apparent on earth if they existed. They're not physically apparent and all possibility of their being physically apparent (at least on this earth) has been exhausted, so... they don't exist. But, one could also say that unicorns are the stuff of fairy tales and, metaphysically, there's not much difference between religion and fairy tales. We can't prove that Zeus or Thor don't exist, much in the same way that I can't say some weird unicorn sprite thing or whatever it is doesn't exist. But, I'd say that, for the sake of discussion, we can draw a line (even if it's only a cultural distinction) between religion and the stuff of fairy tales.


After all, I think we'd all admit that unicorns MIGHT exist, certainly possibly on another planet.

Sure, and if you want to believe in the potential for unicorns to exist, believe that they're all knowing and all powerful, worship them as gods and derive your sense of faith from them, that's you're prerogative. I can't disprove you, either.

Yet we don't believe in unicorns, or put value in having faith in them without evidence.

You could. It'd be a fairly absurd religion, but you certainly could.

So why is the concept of God different?

If we accept that both God and unicorns are both metaphysical things, then the difference exists in the fact that individual people chose to have faith and God and not unicorns as a general rule. (I recognize that there might be some who believe in unicorns and centralize their notions of metaphysical truth around them, but I think we can agree that those people are not the majority.)

My only point is that there is no rational reason to believe in God. There is no falsifiable, verifiable or empirical evidence of any kind for God. Any belief in any god must therefore be taken on the basis of faith, and can be done on the basis of faith alone. There are some (Catholics and dogmatic apologists) who believe that Christianity is a faith wanting of reason. Maybe... but the idea that God even exists must be first taken on the basis of faith because there is no other way.


One could also believe in unicorns on faith alone, and if someone did believe in unicorns, that's 'how' they'd have to do it of necessity. But, even if some people do, that doesn't undercut faith or religion's legitimacy as faith or religion. It just means that we get to chose what we believe or not believe -and that's significant to recognize. Even more significant to realize, however, is that not believing in God because "there is no evidence for God's existence" isn't quite a reason -because there couldn't be evidence for God's existence, by the very nature of what it means to be God. Consequently, the atheists who don't believe in God "because there isn't an argument that sufficiently proves God's existence" are, in an intellectual sense, barking up the wrong tree.

Well, I disagree with the general statement that God couldn't be proven--it very much depends on how you're defining God, and what standard would make a "proof" (absolute, certain knowledge is impossible, after all--the old "no solution for hard solipsism" issue).

But I take your general point. Yet, I'd then ask, what's the value in this "faith"? Doesn't the rejection of rationality lead more probably to non-self-correcting errors...since you can't reason your way out of a position you didn't reason your way into?

(I would also quibble that we don't choose what we believe--we either believe, or we don't. We either accept the arguments/evidence/et cetera, or we don't. We can choose to IGNORE an issue--but then our belief merely rests on us ignoring an issue.)
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YYW
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4/18/2014 6:35:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:08:50 PM, Mikal wrote:
Tell her that you believe in Calvinism and that you in fact are not one of the chosen elect.

If you are a Calvinist, then you can't know if you're one of the elect or not.

Therefore it is a waste of time for you to pray and go to church.

Somehow I don't think his mother is going to agree either with the idea that he could know whether he's one of the elect or not, or the idea that not going to church on the basis of his understanding is a waste of time.

It solves everything.

Not really... it's going to lay the foundation for a really nasty family dispute.

If that fails report her to child services and go find a family that is not cray cray. If you parents are willing to disown you for what you believe or who you are, I would give them a prompt fuk you.

If the parents are willing to disown their kid on the basis of an adolescent's claim to be an atheist, then there's bigger problems in the house than religious uncertainty.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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4/18/2014 6:43:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:33:29 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/18/2014 6:26:37 PM, YYW wrote:

It's not "x entity exists" is not a falsifiable claim. What makes that particular claim falsifiable or not is the 'kind' of entity we're talking about. If 'x' were a physical entity, then, sure, it's falsifiable. But if 'x' is not falsifiable, then we can't disprove it... we also can't prove it.

Can you explain how you see god differently than, say, unicorns?

As we talk about unicorns, they're the kind of being that would be physically apparent on earth if they existed. They're not physically apparent and all possibility of their being physically apparent (at least on this earth) has been exhausted, so... they don't exist. But, one could also say that unicorns are the stuff of fairy tales and, metaphysically, there's not much difference between religion and fairy tales. We can't prove that Zeus or Thor don't exist, much in the same way that I can't say some weird unicorn sprite thing or whatever it is doesn't exist. But, I'd say that, for the sake of discussion, we can draw a line (even if it's only a cultural distinction) between religion and the stuff of fairy tales.




After all, I think we'd all admit that unicorns MIGHT exist, certainly possibly on another planet.

Sure, and if you want to believe in the potential for unicorns to exist, believe that they're all knowing and all powerful, worship them as gods and derive your sense of faith from them, that's you're prerogative. I can't disprove you, either.

Yet we don't believe in unicorns, or put value in having faith in them without evidence.

You could. It'd be a fairly absurd religion, but you certainly could.

So why is the concept of God different?

If we accept that both God and unicorns are both metaphysical things, then the difference exists in the fact that individual people chose to have faith and God and not unicorns as a general rule. (I recognize that there might be some who believe in unicorns and centralize their notions of metaphysical truth around them, but I think we can agree that those people are not the majority.)

My only point is that there is no rational reason to believe in God. There is no falsifiable, verifiable or empirical evidence of any kind for God. Any belief in any god must therefore be taken on the basis of faith, and can be done on the basis of faith alone. There are some (Catholics and dogmatic apologists) who believe that Christianity is a faith wanting of reason. Maybe... but the idea that God even exists must be first taken on the basis of faith because there is no other way.


One could also believe in unicorns on faith alone, and if someone did believe in unicorns, that's 'how' they'd have to do it of necessity. But, even if some people do, that doesn't undercut faith or religion's legitimacy as faith or religion. It just means that we get to chose what we believe or not believe -and that's significant to recognize. Even more significant to realize, however, is that not believing in God because "there is no evidence for God's existence" isn't quite a reason -because there couldn't be evidence for God's existence, by the very nature of what it means to be God. Consequently, the atheists who don't believe in God "because there isn't an argument that sufficiently proves God's existence" are, in an intellectual sense, barking up the wrong tree.

Well, I disagree with the general statement that God couldn't be proven--it very much depends on how you're defining God, and what standard would make a "proof" (absolute, certain knowledge is impossible, after all--the old "no solution for hard solipsism" issue).

I mean, you're free to disagree, but that's not going to mean that you are going to come up with a way to prove God's existence that's testable, repeatable and verifiable. Anything short of that doesn't "prove" God's existence, either.

But I take your general point. Yet, I'd then ask, what's the value in this "faith"? Doesn't the rejection of rationality lead more probably to non-self-correcting errors...since you can't reason your way out of a position you didn't reason your way into?

I don't like that question, because you're implicitly measuring faith's value on the basis of it's being "reasonable" such that value for something exists only to the extent that the something in question is reasonable. So, you're trying to make faith something that it is not, and cannot be.

Realize that if reason is what you value and so above all else, then it's going to be very hard for you to believe in God. But, if you believe in God, then you accept that there some things which are beyond rational explanation and you have to be ok with that -unless you're one of those (amusingly deluded) dogmatic apologists like William Lane Craig.

(I would also quibble that we don't choose what we believe--we either believe, or we don't. We either accept the arguments/evidence/et cetera, or we don't. We can choose to IGNORE an issue--but then our belief merely rests on us ignoring an issue.)

Believing or not is a choice, as it exists on an individual level. Maybe we were all predestined to make that choice. Maybe not. We can't know... at least not here, on earth. We can think that WLC's arguments are sufficient, and we'd be wrong, but we believe them because they allow us to pretend to reason our way into a belief that we want to hold -or we can dismiss them as pseudointellectual hogwash and accept that there is no argument for or against the existence of any God which is sufficient to prove either and accept that that's ok.
Tsar of DDO
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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4/18/2014 6:43:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 6:35:09 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/18/2014 6:08:50 PM, Mikal wrote:
Tell her that you believe in Calvinism and that you in fact are not one of the chosen elect.

If you are a Calvinist, then you can't know if you're one of the elect or not.

You can reasonably assume you are the elect. Obviously if you are going to church and take the time to go through the process of salvation, it would self confirm you as one of the elect. Calvinism is less to do with whether or not "you" are the elect, but focuses on the aspect that you have no idea if other people are apart of the elect

It floats two ways. Either pure Arminianism(exact opposite of Calvinism) , or pure Calvinism with each being on opposite ends of the spectrum. I think any Calvinist would self confirm themselves but recognize it does not take away from the aspect of preaching the gospel because you have no idea who else is a part of the elect other than yourself.

Therefore it is a waste of time for you to pray and go to church.

Somehow I don't think his mother is going to agree either with the idea that he could know whether he's one of the elect or not, or the idea that not going to church on the basis of his understanding is a waste of time.

This is only if he were to say he is a pure Calvinist. Take the standpoint that I am elect and therefore I am going to heaven. I do not need to (x) or (x). I have seen this happen before, and it would be hella funny to tell your family that

I did it to mine as a joke and they tripped sht

It solves everything.

Not really... it's going to lay the foundation for a really nasty family dispute.

there is going to be disputes anyway with that kind of nutjob family.

If that fails report her to child services and go find a family that is not cray cray. If you parents are willing to disown you for what you believe or who you are, I would give them a prompt fuk you.

If the parents are willing to disown their kid on the basis of an adolescent's claim to be an atheist, then there's bigger problems in the house than religious uncertainty.

agreed
9spaceking
Posts: 4,213
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4/18/2014 6:46:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ask your mother what she thinks of Pastafarianism. Hey, it's a fun religion to be in, and it goes well with Atheist--I mean, you could assume the great noodly one created the Big Bang, no? And you could say "well mom, I believe god is the FSM, and he's quite a nice fellow. I guess I can pray to him. And if FSM isn't the god, he's probably god's favorite pet, anyways."
Either that or pretend to be Christian.
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