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Can one truly hold controversial views?

Ajabi
Posts: 1,504
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9/5/2014 3:07:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So a recent new member already dislikes me. Reason? I suspect it is because of my view on sexual contact. I find it repulsive. I sent him/her a friend request and I get the answer "no thank you".

I did clarify, I wrote: "From your comment on my debate, I can assume you dislike me because of my views. I should clarify, I have a lot of gay friends. The best gay couple here: YYW and bsh1 are both on good terms with me.

I have nothing against gays, I am merely "experimenting with truth" to see where reason takes me. If it helps I am just as opposed to heterosexuality. All sex is, for me at least, irrational madness.

To be opposed to the actions of a group, is not to dislike the group."

It did nothing to change his thoughts, only to say he wishes to be civil and does not want to talk to me.

I realize this is a controversial view to hold, especially since debate.org is a libertarian hangout mostly. But I mean bluesteel I remember disliked me initially (having not even talked to me) because I held this view.

Now a new guy dislikes me. I get people have the right to dislike people. But I mean why can debate.org not be a place where two people can hold two absolutely different opinions and still be friends? With me at least it IS like this in a lot of matters.

In general though I think it is not so. It is funny because people are not so touchy on God as they are on the gay issue. Perhaps because being gay is a practical matter? I do not know. I have always, and will always say this: my arguments are my experiments with truth.

Just yesterday I found a flaw in my homosexuality argument. Next time I debate it I will account for this problem. I found a problem in my Ontological Argument, I cleared it up this time when I am debating Double_R.

I admitted my free will argument is, in its current state, incoherent. I do change my views. In the past two years I have gone from sex being the highest pleasure, to platonic love being the highest, to the denial of love in general, back to a firm belief in platonic love being the only form of love that exists and is not completely stupid, or baseless.

Why must people dislike me for who I am? Just as a gay person should be accepted, I too, should be accepted, no?

#AsexualPeopleHaveHeartsTooYaKnow
YYW
Posts: 36,250
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9/6/2014 10:44:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There is a relevant moral distinction between being gay and holding certain views. Being gay is not a choice. Holding certain views is a choice. Insofar as one has a choice, they can be judged for that choice because there is agency in choice. That is not to say that people should not be tolerant of views which diverge from theirs, but it is to advance the principle that only where there is agency can there also be accountability.

Suppose, for example, that someone a person, let's call him Ahmed, thought that he understood something that's really complicated, like theoretical physics. The basic stuff is easy enough to grasp, but suppose Ahmed gets into an argument with Dr. Michio Kaku. Ahmed, who is self taught, thinks he's done something miraculous -and resolved some great dilemma for theoretical physics which has implications for a whole bunch of other fields -but Dr. Michio Kaku, having the educational background to understand both what Ahmed said and what he didn't do, points out that Ahmed hasn't quite done what he thought he did.

Dr. Michio Kaku isn't going to blame Ahmed for the mistake of thinking he accomplished something he didn't, because Dr. Michio Kaku is going to know that Ahmed isn't in a position to know what he doesn't know -any more than he is in a position to understand that what Ahmed did is fundamentally flawed. That said, there is probably a limit to how much we can reasonably 'blame' kids for believing uninformed things or having opinions which don't make a whole lot of sense -like the opinion that love isn't real, or that all sex is gross. So, even though while I can understand reasons why someone would, for instance, be justified in judging someone else for holding bizarre beliefs -like Dr. Michio Kaku, I'm going to take into account some mitigating factors that explain that belief before I pass judgement myself.
Tsar of DDO
mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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9/6/2014 11:10:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 3:07:01 PM, Ajabi wrote:

Now a new guy dislikes me. I get people have the right to dislike people. But I mean why can debate.org not be a place where two people can hold two absolutely different opinions and still be friends?

I totally agree that people with opposite points of view should be friends. And it is possible. I do not agree with the gay orientation, but Bsh1 and I are friends. I'm a Christian, and many of my friends are either atheist or agnostic. It is only possible if both people are willing to care about the other person, whether they believe it or not. There is another Christian who is so distracted by the things he and I don't agree on that he refuses to talk about anything else.

What I'm doing is I try to be kind and respectful to everyone I meet, whether I agree with them or not, so I will avoid contributing to the problem.

Ajab, I'm really sorry you are going through that. You deserve respect just because God made you in his image, and he loves you, and you are valuable to him, whether you believe it or not. So, I apologize on behalf of the people who have wronged you in this way. That was not right, and not appropriate. You are more than what they say you are. God bless!

(I know the above was really controversial, and people are probably mad at me now, but if that is the case, you are missing the point, and the attitude I have typed this in.)
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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9/7/2014 12:13:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's amusing how people get very up-in-arms over only certain topics on this site - you can see anti-war liberals, for example, freely talking with conservatives they think support wars that result in thousands upon thousands being brutally murdered. God forbid someone thinks sex is wrong, though - that's where the line should be drawn!
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
YYW
Posts: 36,250
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9/7/2014 12:16:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 12:13:23 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
It's amusing how people get very up-in-arms over only certain topics on this site - you can see anti-war liberals, for example, freely talking with conservatives they think support wars that result in thousands upon thousands being brutally murdered. God forbid someone thinks sex is wrong, though - that's where the line should be drawn!

Who are these anti-war liberals?
Tsar of DDO
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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9/7/2014 12:20:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 12:16:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/7/2014 12:13:23 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
It's amusing how people get very up-in-arms over only certain topics on this site - you can see anti-war liberals, for example, freely talking with conservatives they think support wars that result in thousands upon thousands being brutally murdered. God forbid someone thinks sex is wrong, though - that's where the line should be drawn!

Who are these anti-war liberals?

I didn't have any specific members in mind, but I'm sure that they're on the site, somewhere. Even if not, it was just a broad example - the same point could be made by substituting in, say, those pro-death penalty and against, or pro-socialism and against, etc.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
YYW
Posts: 36,250
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9/7/2014 12:22:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 12:20:05 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/7/2014 12:16:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/7/2014 12:13:23 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
It's amusing how people get very up-in-arms over only certain topics on this site - you can see anti-war liberals, for example, freely talking with conservatives they think support wars that result in thousands upon thousands being brutally murdered. God forbid someone thinks sex is wrong, though - that's where the line should be drawn!

Who are these anti-war liberals?

I didn't have any specific members in mind, but I'm sure that they're on the site, somewhere. Even if not, it was just a broad example - the same point could be made by substituting in, say, those pro-death penalty and against, or pro-socialism and against, etc.

Christianity and the death penalty have always and a precarious relationship... and really, it's amazing to me that Republicans who want small government are more than willing to empower the state to kill people.
Tsar of DDO
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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9/8/2014 3:15:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 12:22:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/7/2014 12:20:05 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 9/7/2014 12:16:52 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/7/2014 12:13:23 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
It's amusing how people get very up-in-arms over only certain topics on this site - you can see anti-war liberals, for example, freely talking with conservatives they think support wars that result in thousands upon thousands being brutally murdered. God forbid someone thinks sex is wrong, though - that's where the line should be drawn!

Who are these anti-war liberals?

I didn't have any specific members in mind, but I'm sure that they're on the site, somewhere. Even if not, it was just a broad example - the same point could be made by substituting in, say, those pro-death penalty and against, or pro-socialism and against, etc.

Christianity and the death penalty have always and a precarious relationship... and really, it's amazing to me that Republicans who want small government are more than willing to empower the state to kill people.

Decentralization is what State Rights is about. Christians being Pro Death Penalty is inspired by Genesis 9:6.
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