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Believing things that you hate being true

Envisage
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10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are a lot of things I believe now that I really don't condone, it's rather depressing, but also in some sense reassuring, as it is at least some evidence that my beliefs are generally objective and not born of bias.

So the question to DDO is "What do you believe to be true that you don't like/hate?"

Here are a few of mine:

God's Existence - I think the reason it took me so long to drop belief in God was largely because I was panicking and fearful of what would happen if God really didn't exist, what effect that would have in my sense if reality, especially regarding death and sense of self. Not to mention if I dropped belief and God really did exist, then I would have betrayed him. Sometimes I really do wish God (although probably not the Christian God) did exist, since it would force balance into society, and bring justice and retribution. Not to mention the existance of my soul and free will (more on this later).

Determinism/Quantum Mechanics - "God does not play dice with the universe", I gritted my teeth hard through my physics lectures/lessons when this revelation was thrown at me. I embrace it now, but the notion that the world is inherently probabilistic, and that certain things can never be known with perfection went against all my preconceived notions of 'being able to know EVERYTHING'

Free Will - Mainly due to PAP violations, I would wager few people would be happy with rejecting the notion of free will. The fact that 'I' don't have much in the way of 'choosing' to write this message, and that it's a mechanical product of the state of my mind isn't something that has ever say comfortable with me.

Imaginary numbers - They're bloody imaginary! Why do they exist in math?!

Moral Realism & Cognitivism - Means that a tonne more legwork now needs to be done to decide what is 'right' and 'wrong' in society, and blanket statements such as 'the holocaust was wrong' can no longer be made. Life was much easier when this was possible, and the fact that I cannot be honest when III declare actions to be wrong isn't sitting comfortable with me, but that's the sad state of reality as I see it.

... To name Just a few. What are yours?
Cermank
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10/27/2014 11:05:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:

Pacifism comes to mind. The fact that pacifism doesn't seem to be sustainable on an international level without an equal credible threat of arms.

I am not sure about God to be honest. Even if God did exist, I doubt he would care whether or not we believed in him, the sole purpose of our existence cannot be to please him. I'd rather be a good human being, working through the world utilizing the cognitive abilities he's given us.

Love, or feelings are another one. But that's a pretty huge topic in itself.

This is a good topic, I'd like to see more responses to this.
Envisage
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10/27/2014 11:15:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, you're wrong about every single one of those :)

Forgive me for continuing to disagree for justified reasons.
dylancatlow
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10/27/2014 11:17:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 11:15:43 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, you're wrong about every single one of those :)

Forgive me for continuing to disagree for justified reasons.

You're forgiven.
dylancatlow
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10/27/2014 11:18:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 11:15:43 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, you're wrong about every single one of those :)

Forgive me for continuing to disagree for justified reasons.

Would you like to have a QM debate?
dylancatlow
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10/27/2014 11:19:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 11:15:43 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, you're wrong about every single one of those :)

Forgive me for continuing to disagree for justified reasons.

Or a free will debate?
Envisage
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10/27/2014 11:19:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 11:05:09 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:

Pacifism comes to mind. The fact that pacifism doesn't seem to be sustainable on an international level without an equal credible threat of arms.

Great point. Admittedly most if my thinking about pacifism came during watching 'Gundam wing' (awesome anime btw). I really would desire a society which did not need to possess weapons of mass-extinction and terror, it's sad fact to accept that most certainly will never happen (at least not without being taken over).

I am not sure about God to be honest. Even if God did exist, I doubt he would care whether or not we believed in him, the sole purpose of our existence cannot be to please him.

That's pretty much the position I have, which was of some comfort, lol.

I'd rather be a good human being, working through the world utilizing the cognitive abilities he's given us.

Love, or feelings are another one. But that's a pretty huge topic in itself.

Is there something more romantic, yet honest to say than 'I find you sexually attractive, and you're a good friend too!' To your partner? :-/

This is a good topic, I'd like to see more responses to this.
000ike
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10/27/2014 11:21:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, I disagree with you on every single one of those :)

courtesy and uncertainty go a long way.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Envisage
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10/27/2014 11:21:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 11:19:12 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 11:15:43 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, you're wrong about every single one of those :)

Forgive me for continuing to disagree for justified reasons.

Or a free will debate?

Probably free will, but I don't really have time at the moment, I am only doing 1 debate at the time, and currently I am trolling Wylted.
dylancatlow
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10/27/2014 11:22:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 11:21:14 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, I disagree with you on every single one of those :)

courtesy and uncertainty go a long way.

lol hai ike.
dylancatlow
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10/27/2014 11:23:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 11:21:38 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 11:19:12 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 11:15:43 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 10:51:58 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Fortunately, you're wrong about every single one of those :)

Forgive me for continuing to disagree for justified reasons.

Or a free will debate?

Probably free will, but I don't really have time at the moment, I am only doing 1 debate at the time, and currently I am trolling Wylted.

Okay. Should I ask again in a week or so?
Ajabi
Posts: 1,504
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10/27/2014 11:34:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:

I think the hardest things to admit are my own limitations. They irk me, but I know them well, and to try and go beyond them is stupid: I will always try, for to try is to be man, but I am skeptical.

I think the first hard thing I admitted was my father's fallibility, and then my teacher's fallibility.

In matters of science I pretty much accept everything. I mean I am indifferent in emotion whether the world is 10, 000 years old or 13.8 million (+/- 0.3 mill). I mean I will accept whichever one is true.

Recently I have had doubts on Islam, I pretty much accept them and see myself turning Deistic if they are not answered. This does not irk me in the least, I accept whatever I see as fact, I like fact in fact. :P Pun intended.
Karmanator
Posts: 142
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10/27/2014 12:17:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I disagree on all those points of the OP as well and we ought to keep in mind that those issues to date have not been resolved. There is still hope lol.
Wocambs
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10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.

I suppose one thing that I still sort of hate is that I can't make people do what I think it is best.

Another thing is what Cermank said about pacifism, and that kind of thing, but I think that the thing that the main thing that derails pacifism and cooperation is people thinking that other people aren't going to be as pacifistic or cooperative as they are, so I suppose I have to be brave, because without struggle there is no progress. I hate the doubt.

I also hate that I alternate between believing I'm better than everyone else and believing that I'm worse. I hate both.
Envisage
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10/27/2014 1:03:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.

I suppose one thing that I still sort of hate is that I can't make people do what I think it is best.

Another thing is what Cermank said about pacifism, and that kind of thing, but I think that the thing that the main thing that derails pacifism and cooperation is people thinking that other people aren't going to be as pacifistic or cooperative as they are, so I suppose I have to be brave, because without struggle there is no progress. I hate the doubt.

I also hate that I alternate between believing I'm better than everyone else and believing that I'm worse. I hate both.

Lol at this dilemma
Wocambs
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10/27/2014 1:13:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:03:11 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.

I suppose one thing that I still sort of hate is that I can't make people do what I think it is best.

Another thing is what Cermank said about pacifism, and that kind of thing, but I think that the thing that the main thing that derails pacifism and cooperation is people thinking that other people aren't going to be as pacifistic or cooperative as they are, so I suppose I have to be brave, because without struggle there is no progress. I hate the doubt.

I also hate that I alternate between believing I'm better than everyone else and believing that I'm worse. I hate both.

Lol at this dilemma

Yes, it's probably why I drink at night and sleep 'til four or five.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?
Wocambs
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10/27/2014 1:25:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking. I mean truth. I mean that knowing the truth is about having the right thoughts, and what is right depends is what is right for me. Maybe I don't have to make it sound so 'skeptical', but it's safer to.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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10/27/2014 1:30:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:25:09 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking. I mean truth. I mean that knowing the truth is about having the right thoughts, and what is right depends is what is right for me. Maybe I don't have to make it sound so 'skeptical', but it's safer to.

If what is right is what is right for you, then it's merely you who who is making this true. You have no actual reason to believe this is true in the first place.
Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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10/27/2014 1:36:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:30:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:09 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking. I mean truth. I mean that knowing the truth is about having the right thoughts, and what is right depends is what is right for me. Maybe I don't have to make it sound so 'skeptical', but it's safer to.

If what is right is what is right for you, then it's merely you who who is making this true. You have no actual reason to believe this is true in the first place.

I'm not saying it's 'arbitrary'. I just think that the reason 'truth' is normative is because we can't contradict ourselves, essentially, and if truth is normative because I can't contradict myself then I am ultimately the 'standard', it seems. When I believe something false, it means I'm failing to live up to my own standard.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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10/27/2014 1:44:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:36:24 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:30:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:09 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking. I mean truth. I mean that knowing the truth is about having the right thoughts, and what is right depends is what is right for me. Maybe I don't have to make it sound so 'skeptical', but it's safer to.

If what is right is what is right for you, then it's merely you who who is making this true. You have no actual reason to believe this is true in the first place.

I'm not saying it's 'arbitrary'. I just think that the reason 'truth' is normative is because we can't contradict ourselves, essentially, and if truth is normative because I can't contradict myself then I am ultimately the 'standard', it seems. When I believe something false, it means I'm failing to live up to my own standard.

Logic is self-validating and thus predicated on itself. In other words, truth is its own standard. You are not the standard, you only define the standard. Basically, logic is implicit in every one of your thoughts, and defining it is merely bring it to bear as something explicit.
Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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10/27/2014 8:27:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:44:18 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:36:24 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:30:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:09 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking. I mean truth. I mean that knowing the truth is about having the right thoughts, and what is right depends is what is right for me. Maybe I don't have to make it sound so 'skeptical', but it's safer to.

If what is right is what is right for you, then it's merely you who who is making this true. You have no actual reason to believe this is true in the first place.

I'm not saying it's 'arbitrary'. I just think that the reason 'truth' is normative is because we can't contradict ourselves, essentially, and if truth is normative because I can't contradict myself then I am ultimately the 'standard', it seems. When I believe something false, it means I'm failing to live up to my own standard.

Logic is self-validating and thus predicated on itself. In other words, truth is its own standard. You are not the standard, you only define the standard. Basically, logic is implicit in every one of your thoughts, and defining it is merely bring it to bear as something explicit.

You seem to be rather fond of posting relationships that exist between two things as existing between a thing and itself.

In any case, I'm not quite sure where I have been contradicted, if your point is 'basically' that logic is implicit in every thought. I mean, that seems to be exactly what I was saying.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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10/27/2014 8:33:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 8:27:31 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:44:18 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:36:24 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:30:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:09 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking. I mean truth. I mean that knowing the truth is about having the right thoughts, and what is right depends is what is right for me. Maybe I don't have to make it sound so 'skeptical', but it's safer to.

If what is right is what is right for you, then it's merely you who who is making this true. You have no actual reason to believe this is true in the first place.

I'm not saying it's 'arbitrary'. I just think that the reason 'truth' is normative is because we can't contradict ourselves, essentially, and if truth is normative because I can't contradict myself then I am ultimately the 'standard', it seems. When I believe something false, it means I'm failing to live up to my own standard.

Logic is self-validating and thus predicated on itself. In other words, truth is its own standard. You are not the standard, you only define the standard. Basically, logic is implicit in every one of your thoughts, and defining it is merely bring it to bear as something explicit.

You seem to be rather fond of posting relationships that exist between two things as existing between a thing and itself.

In any case, I'm not quite sure where I have been contradicted, if your point is 'basically' that logic is implicit in every thought. I mean, that seems to be exactly what I was saying.

I thought you were supporting some brand of logical relativism?
Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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10/27/2014 8:43:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 8:33:33 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 8:27:31 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:44:18 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:36:24 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:30:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:09 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:15:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:19:03 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/27/2014 9:50:32 AM, Envisage wrote:
... To name Just a few. What are yours?

I used to hate the idea that knowledge depends on perspective, but I don't any more. I realised that where it matters our perspective is the same.


What do you mean by this? Of course what someone knows depends on who you're talking about. Or by "knowledge" do you mean truth?

Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking. I mean truth. I mean that knowing the truth is about having the right thoughts, and what is right depends is what is right for me. Maybe I don't have to make it sound so 'skeptical', but it's safer to.

If what is right is what is right for you, then it's merely you who who is making this true. You have no actual reason to believe this is true in the first place.

I'm not saying it's 'arbitrary'. I just think that the reason 'truth' is normative is because we can't contradict ourselves, essentially, and if truth is normative because I can't contradict myself then I am ultimately the 'standard', it seems. When I believe something false, it means I'm failing to live up to my own standard.

Logic is self-validating and thus predicated on itself. In other words, truth is its own standard. You are not the standard, you only define the standard. Basically, logic is implicit in every one of your thoughts, and defining it is merely bring it to bear as something explicit.

You seem to be rather fond of posting relationships that exist between two things as existing between a thing and itself.

In any case, I'm not quite sure where I have been contradicted, if your point is 'basically' that logic is implicit in every thought. I mean, that seems to be exactly what I was saying.

I thought you were supporting some brand of logical relativism?

I think I'm just trying to say that the reason there are right and wrong beliefs is that it is wrong for me to contradict myself. A=A is contained in the meaning of A, sure, but I am not sure where the normativity would arise from other than not contradicting myself.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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10/27/2014 9:31:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Maybe I'm in the minority, but my non-belief in free will has never bothered me much.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Subutai
Posts: 3,139
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10/27/2014 10:07:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Determinism - The first evidence I saw that convinced me was that if the universe is made up of deterministic-behaving particles, then everything lives in a deterministic fashion. Now, that argument just seems to be committing the division fallacy. I research biochemical reactions in the brain regularly to understand just how those reactions behave determinisitcally.

Capitalism - It all started back when I joined this site. I changed my opinions on social issues, religion, and philosophy, but the one thing that never changed was my belief in Laissez Faire capitalism. However, the more and more I read and think, the tougher I find it to uphod those beliefs. There's a series of questions I have now that I've never seen answered in a satisfying way. Right now, I'm in a murky area where I have no specific economic belief.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Subutai
Posts: 3,139
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10/27/2014 10:11:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I read a book once that used mathematical platonism to essentially say just "play the game". Mathematically, there's now difference between solving for x in x^2=2 than in x^2=-1. Imaginary numbers are no more "real" than irrational numbers (when are you ever coming to have sqrt(2) dollars?). In fact, the term "imaginary" is misleading. It's simply just that it can't be put on the one dimensional number line. Extend the number line into two dimensions with the x axis representing real numbers and the y axis representing imaginary numbers, and you've formed a good view of complex numbers (numbers with an imaginary and real part).
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.