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bsh1
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11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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1harderthanyouthink
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11/26/2014 1:45:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm quite surprised...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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11/26/2014 2:38:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

I'm torn about the abortion issue to be honest. I think pro-choice people value the mother at the expense of the child, and some pro-life people value the child at the expense of the mother. Both are people that should be supported and valued. I'm pro-life for many reasons, but I think that we can do more to support teen moms.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
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11/26/2014 2:46:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 1:45:22 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
I'm quite surprised...

Me too...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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11/26/2014 2:47:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

Read the Ethics of Abortion by Christopher Kackzor. I'm almost finished and I now see why it is hailed so greatly by the pro life crowd. It really is a superb read. I reccomend you read, especially if you are in a stage where you are wondering about your own stance on abortion.
Nolite Timere
bsh1
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11/26/2014 2:47:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:38:14 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

I'm torn about the abortion issue to be honest. I think pro-choice people value the mother at the expense of the child, and some pro-life people value the child at the expense of the mother. Both are people that should be supported and valued. I'm pro-life for many reasons, but I think that we can do more to support teen moms.

Yeah. I am trying to logically approach the issue, and I cannot find an argument that I find compelling to substantiate my position...If I can't find a logical way--that I can also believe in--to support a pro-choice stance, I may be forced to default to a pro-life one.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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11/26/2014 2:48:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:47:17 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

Read the Ethics of Abortion by Christopher Kackzor. I'm almost finished and I now see why it is hailed so greatly by the pro life crowd. It really is a superb read. I reccomend you read, especially if you are in a stage where you are wondering about your own stance on abortion.

I might give it a look. I just finished re-reading Marquis's FLO argument...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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11/26/2014 2:50:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:48:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:47:17 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

Read the Ethics of Abortion by Christopher Kackzor. I'm almost finished and I now see why it is hailed so greatly by the pro life crowd. It really is a superb read. I reccomend you read, especially if you are in a stage where you are wondering about your own stance on abortion.

I might give it a look. I just finished re-reading Marquis's FLO argument...

Did you read it from an article or a book or what? I might be curious about reading it since I'm not all too familiar with the FLO argument.
Nolite Timere
mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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11/26/2014 2:50:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:47:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:38:14 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

I'm torn about the abortion issue to be honest. I think pro-choice people value the mother at the expense of the child, and some pro-life people value the child at the expense of the mother. Both are people that should be supported and valued. I'm pro-life for many reasons, but I think that we can do more to support teen moms.

Yeah. I am trying to logically approach the issue, and I cannot find an argument that I find compelling to substantiate my position...If I can't find a logical way--that I can also believe in--to support a pro-choice stance, I may be forced to default to a pro-life one.

Spoken like a true INTJ. :)

Abortion is a difficult issue, and each side has a
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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11/26/2014 2:52:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:50:10 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:48:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:47:17 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

Read the Ethics of Abortion by Christopher Kackzor. I'm almost finished and I now see why it is hailed so greatly by the pro life crowd. It really is a superb read. I reccomend you read, especially if you are in a stage where you are wondering about your own stance on abortion.

I might give it a look. I just finished re-reading Marquis's FLO argument...

Did you read it from an article or a book or what? I might be curious about reading it since I'm not all too familiar with the FLO argument.

An article.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:50:24 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:47:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:38:14 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

I'm torn about the abortion issue to be honest. I think pro-choice people value the mother at the expense of the child, and some pro-life people value the child at the expense of the mother. Both are people that should be supported and valued. I'm pro-life for many reasons, but I think that we can do more to support teen moms.

Yeah. I am trying to logically approach the issue, and I cannot find an argument that I find compelling to substantiate my position...If I can't find a logical way--that I can also believe in--to support a pro-choice stance, I may be forced to default to a pro-life one.

Spoken like a true INTJ. :)

Lol.

Abortion is a difficult issue.

Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:50:24 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:47:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:38:14 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

I'm torn about the abortion issue to be honest. I think pro-choice people value the mother at the expense of the child, and some pro-life people value the child at the expense of the mother. Both are people that should be supported and valued. I'm pro-life for many reasons, but I think that we can do more to support teen moms.

Yeah. I am trying to logically approach the issue, and I cannot find an argument that I find compelling to substantiate my position...If I can't find a logical way--that I can also believe in--to support a pro-choice stance, I may be forced to default to a pro-life one.

Spoken like a true INTJ. :)

Lol.

Abortion is a difficult issue.

Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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11/26/2014 2:57:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Legal abortions are better than coat-hanger abortions though, esp. in developing countries. I am not sure it's so easy to say that the costs outweigh the benefits.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:57:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Legal abortions are better than coat-hanger abortions though, esp. in developing countries. I am not sure it's so easy to say that the costs outweigh the benefits.

True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:57:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Legal abortions are better than coat-hanger abortions though, esp. in developing countries. I am not sure it's so easy to say that the costs outweigh the benefits.

True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
mishapqueen
Posts: 3,995
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11/26/2014 3:29:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:57:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Legal abortions are better than coat-hanger abortions though, esp. in developing countries. I am not sure it's so easy to say that the costs outweigh the benefits.

True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.

I've heard that before, but I don't understand the difference. Mind explaining it?
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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11/26/2014 3:35:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:29:32 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:57:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Legal abortions are better than coat-hanger abortions though, esp. in developing countries. I am not sure it's so easy to say that the costs outweigh the benefits.

True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.

I've heard that before, but I don't understand the difference. Mind explaining it?

The argument that it's possible to be pro-life without recognizing a baby as a person? Sure. The argument states that:

P1. It is wrong to deprive something of a future like ours
P2. Murder deprives a person of a future like ours
C1. Murder is wrong
P3. Abortion deprives something of a future like ours
C2. Abortion is wrong

So, even if the fetus isn't a person, it still has--potentially--a future like ours (FLO). So, by aborting, you deprive it of this FLO. So, abortion is wrong for the same reason murder is, but it isn't the same thing as murder.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,107
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11/26/2014 3:49:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:35:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:29:32 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.

I've heard that before, but I don't understand the difference. Mind explaining it?

The argument that it's possible to be pro-life without recognizing a baby as a person? Sure. The argument states that:

P1. It is wrong to deprive something of a future like ours
P2. Murder deprives a person of a future like ours
C1. Murder is wrong
P3. Abortion deprives something of a future like ours
C2. Abortion is wrong

So, even if the fetus isn't a person, it still has--potentially--a future like ours (FLO). So, by aborting, you deprive it of this FLO. So, abortion is wrong for the same reason murder is, but it isn't the same thing as murder.

That comes pretty close to my opinion in terms of abortion, but I prefer to label myself "pro" for abortion because because I feel abortions should be allowed in certain situations...and I feel that my opinion needs to be separated from the hard-con position..

And in a legal sense, I feel that I should not, nor anyone else, be allowed to dictate what someone does with something that requires them to create in the first place.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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11/26/2014 3:51:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:49:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:35:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:29:32 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.

I've heard that before, but I don't understand the difference. Mind explaining it?

The argument that it's possible to be pro-life without recognizing a baby as a person? Sure. The argument states that:

P1. It is wrong to deprive something of a future like ours
P2. Murder deprives a person of a future like ours
C1. Murder is wrong
P3. Abortion deprives something of a future like ours
C2. Abortion is wrong

So, even if the fetus isn't a person, it still has--potentially--a future like ours (FLO). So, by aborting, you deprive it of this FLO. So, abortion is wrong for the same reason murder is, but it isn't the same thing as murder.

That comes pretty close to my opinion in terms of abortion, but I prefer to label myself "pro" for abortion because because I feel abortions should be allowed in certain situations...and I feel that my opinion needs to be separated from the hard-con position..

Sure, but, since I feel like that position forces me to be against most abortions, it is more accurate to say I am "Con" on abortions.

And in a legal sense, I feel that I should not, nor anyone else, be allowed to dictate what someone does with something that requires them to create in the first place.

I don't think that argument has much weight given that the fetus is being denied a FLO.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,107
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11/26/2014 3:56:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:51:15 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:49:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:35:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:29:32 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.

I've heard that before, but I don't understand the difference. Mind explaining it?

The argument that it's possible to be pro-life without recognizing a baby as a person? Sure. The argument states that:

P1. It is wrong to deprive something of a future like ours
P2. Murder deprives a person of a future like ours
C1. Murder is wrong
P3. Abortion deprives something of a future like ours
C2. Abortion is wrong

So, even if the fetus isn't a person, it still has--potentially--a future like ours (FLO). So, by aborting, you deprive it of this FLO. So, abortion is wrong for the same reason murder is, but it isn't the same thing as murder.

That comes pretty close to my opinion in terms of abortion, but I prefer to label myself "pro" for abortion because because I feel abortions should be allowed in certain situations...and I feel that my opinion needs to be separated from the hard-con position..

Sure, but, since I feel like that position forces me to be against most abortions, it is more accurate to say I am "Con" on abortions.

And in a legal sense, I feel that I should not, nor anyone else, be allowed to dictate what someone does with something that requires them to create in the first place.

I don't think that argument has much weight given that the fetus is being denied a FLO.

If we're talking a viable fetus, then I'd agree with you. But if someone wants to abort an embryo that would not survive without the mother, then I feel that the parents have a certain right to get an abortion.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
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11/26/2014 3:56:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:56:02 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:51:15 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I don't think that argument has much weight given that the fetus is being denied a FLO.

If we're talking a viable fetus, then I'd agree with you. But if someone wants to abort an embryo that would not survive without the mother, then I feel that the parents have a certain right to get an abortion.

Why does viability have any relevance?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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UchihaMadara
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11/26/2014 3:57:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:35:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:29:32 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:57:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Legal abortions are better than coat-hanger abortions though, esp. in developing countries. I am not sure it's so easy to say that the costs outweigh the benefits.

True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.

I've heard that before, but I don't understand the difference. Mind explaining it?

The argument that it's possible to be pro-life without recognizing a baby as a person? Sure. The argument states that:

P1. It is wrong to deprive something of a future like ours
P2. Murder deprives a person of a future like ours
C1. Murder is wrong
P3. Abortion deprives something of a future like ours
C2. Abortion is wrong

So, even if the fetus isn't a person, it still has--potentially--a future like ours (FLO). So, by aborting, you deprive it of this FLO. So, abortion is wrong for the same reason murder is, but it isn't the same thing as murder.

OMG that argument is the same reason I'm faltering on the issue of abortion's immortality.
mishapqueen
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11/26/2014 3:59:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:35:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:29:32 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:59:41 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:57:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Legal abortions are better than coat-hanger abortions though, esp. in developing countries. I am not sure it's so easy to say that the costs outweigh the benefits.

True, but the video I saw was a legal one. I am probably missing some important piece of information, but I cannot justify killing an unborn baby in my mind. But then again, there are mothers who feel overwhelmed and unable to care for a baby, so I'm torn.

I think it's a mistake to equate a fetus to a baby...Personally, I think it is possible to take a pro-life stance without doing that.

I've heard that before, but I don't understand the difference. Mind explaining it?

The argument that it's possible to be pro-life without recognizing a baby as a person? Sure. The argument states that:

P1. It is wrong to deprive something of a future like ours
P2. Murder deprives a person of a future like ours
C1. Murder is wrong
P3. Abortion deprives something of a future like ours
C2. Abortion is wrong

So, even if the fetus isn't a person, it still has--potentially--a future like ours (FLO). So, by aborting, you deprive it of this FLO. So, abortion is wrong for the same reason murder is, but it isn't the same thing as murder.

Thank you for explaining that. Why are the terms baby and fetus not the same thing? That's also confusing me...
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
SamStevens
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11/26/2014 4:00:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:50:24 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:47:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:38:14 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

I'm torn about the abortion issue to be honest. I think pro-choice people value the mother at the expense of the child, and some pro-life people value the child at the expense of the mother. Both are people that should be supported and valued. I'm pro-life for many reasons, but I think that we can do more to support teen moms.

Yeah. I am trying to logically approach the issue, and I cannot find an argument that I find compelling to substantiate my position...If I can't find a logical way--that I can also believe in--to support a pro-choice stance, I may be forced to default to a pro-life one.

Spoken like a true INTJ. :)

Lol.

Abortion is a difficult issue.

Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Where is the video?
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
bsh1
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11/26/2014 4:01:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:58:34 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I've always been pro-life in a personal sense, but I oppose legislation to ban abortions during the first trimester.

Why?
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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mishapqueen
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11/26/2014 4:02:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 4:00:25 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:55:54 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:53:22 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:50:24 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:47:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/26/2014 2:38:14 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 1:37:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think, after recent reflection, I might be pro-life. I am not sure what to make of that...Thoughts?

I'm torn about the abortion issue to be honest. I think pro-choice people value the mother at the expense of the child, and some pro-life people value the child at the expense of the mother. Both are people that should be supported and valued. I'm pro-life for many reasons, but I think that we can do more to support teen moms.

Yeah. I am trying to logically approach the issue, and I cannot find an argument that I find compelling to substantiate my position...If I can't find a logical way--that I can also believe in--to support a pro-choice stance, I may be forced to default to a pro-life one.

Spoken like a true INTJ. :)

Lol.

Abortion is a difficult issue.

Yeah it is. Each side as good and bad points.
The way I think about it is cost/benefit analysis. After seeing a video of a baby getting torn apart during an abortion, and knowing that it kills a human being, I see the cost as significantly greater than the benefit.

Where is the video?

I think it was this one. https://www.youtube.com...
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
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11/26/2014 4:03:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/26/2014 3:59:47 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 11/26/2014 3:35:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
So, even if the fetus isn't a person, it still has--potentially--a future like ours (FLO). So, by aborting, you deprive it of this FLO. So, abortion is wrong for the same reason murder is, but it isn't the same thing as murder.

Thank you for explaining that.

Sure thing.

Why are the terms baby and fetus not the same thing? That's also confusing me...

Baby implies it could survive outside the womb. Surely, a fetus that lacks lungs, fingers, arms, etc. cannot reasonably be what we normally think of when we think of a baby.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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