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leojm
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4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.
Blade-of-Truth
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4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM, leojm wrote:
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments. If anything, they just made me despise my parents more. It even became a game in my mind where if I knew I was gonna get spanked I'd just put on 5 pairs of underwear beneath my shorts. Essentially, such punishments were futile in changing my behavior. I believe that no matter what the situation is, you can teach the child to not repeat negative behavior using means other than physical violence. The thing with physical punishments is that you are creating an association in the child's mind between their bad behavior and physical pain. The problem is that the moment you aren't around to dish out the physical pain, there is no longer any incentive to act good in the child's mind, i.e., if there's no chance of getting caught, there's no incentive to not act in such a manner. The child will just repeat the behavior if the parent isn't around to catch them in the act. So, if anything, you're merely forcing the child to hold themselves back while in the presence of their parents, but it does nothing to change them when the parents aren't around.

What should actually be done is to teach the child, verbally, why their behavior or actions are unacceptable. Talk to them, show them why the behavior isn't right. Unless you actually show them "why", they'll never learn. As I noted above, physical punishments only work if you're around to dish them out. If the physical punishment isn't part of the equation, for whatever reason, then the incentive to act good is lost. On the other hand, if we teach the child why such behavior/actions aren't good, then they'll always have that lesson in mind. You have to make a real, lasting impact, not a temporary one that depends on the painful effects of physical punishment.

I think this is why we have so many bad apples in society these days. When someone grows up in a house that punished them physically, and then move out to be on their own, who's going to spank them now? There's just nothing there to stop them from acting in a poor manner now that the incentive to act good is no longer part of the picture. We have to utilize more effective means of removing negative behavior or personality traits from children during their most important formative years. I believe that talking to them like adults, showing them the "why" of the whole issue, is a much more effective means.

For me, I only learned when my dad would actually sit me down and talk to me. He would start by telling me he wasn't angry, but rather "disappointed", and then would follow with his reasoning as to why. Those were really the only times I ever learned "why" my behavior was bad, and those are the lessons that stuck with me. Personally, I'll try the "why" method on my own children before ever resorting to physical violence to correct their behavior.
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1harderthanyouthink
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4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)
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1harderthanyouthink
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4/25/2015 12:30:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)

As well as professional research, but, they don't know what they're talking about...
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SeventhProfessor
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4/25/2015 1:07:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To interpose the threat of physical destruction between a man and his perception of reality, is to negate and paralyze his means of survival; to force-him to act against his own judgment, is like forcing him to act against his own sight. Whoever, to whatever purpose or extent, initiates the use of force, is a killer acting on the premise of death in a manner wider than murder: the premise of destroying man"s capacity to live.

Do not open your mouth to tell me that your mind has convinced you of your right to force my mind. Force and mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins. When you declare that men are irrational animals and propose to treat them as such, you define thereby your own character and can no longer claim the sanction of reason-as no advocate of contradictions can claim it. There can be no "right" to destroy the source of rights, the only means of judging right and wrong: the mind.
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YYW
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4/25/2015 2:29:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM, leojm wrote:
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.

There is overwhelming evidence from reputable medical and psychiatric research which sufficiently establishes that hitting kids is not only ineffective, but it can be counter-effective.

The spanking debate is, however, a highly political one. Conservative parents who beat their kids claim that this is an appropriate form of parenting, and they have little interest in engaging the scientific literature that proves them wrong. Read: they are acting irrationally. Liberal parents are less likely to spank their kids, but old social norms die hard.

There are many people who (fallaciously) construct an argument much like the one you have here;

1. They argue that there was a time in the past that some disciplinary method was employed.

2. They correlate that method to an often unrealistic, if not outwardly false (more or less Romanticized) version of what the past "was like" whether that is the case or not. This usually involves blanket generalizations for which there is no evidence offered.

3. They identify the absence of that method in the present, and correlate the absence of that parenting method to a change in whatever status quo that they claim was in fact once the case.

This is a vacuous method of reasoning; I say "vacuous" because "fallacious" doesn't seem to really capture the 'gist' of how bad this argument is.
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Kaynes
Posts: 25
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4/25/2015 3:38:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Parents who were abused ad children tend to abuse their own, one of the saddest phenomenon and most vicious circle..
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/25/2015 4:33:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 12:30:58 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)

As well as professional research, but, they don't know what they're talking about...

Actually, the research seems to show excessive corporal punishment is harmful, while a moderate amount has never been proven to have harmful effects. (Benatar)
Wylted
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4/25/2015 4:40:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you argue that corporal punishment isn't a deterrent, you're wrong. No kid wants to get beat. Also why would sitting them in a corner be more effective.

BOT mentioned mentioned talking to your kid and explaining to them, why their actions are wrong, but Before a certain age children can't be reasoned with. Some children never gain the ability to be reasoned with. Kids often learn by pain association. You touch a hot stove, it burns and you learn that touching a hot stove is bad. It's the same with drinking beer as a kid. You drink a beer, you get beat and that pain association exists, so you know it's wrong.
Kaynes
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4/25/2015 4:48:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What do you consider excessive ?

Because the author of this thread actually advocates whipping your kids with a freaking belt. Seriously thats messed up
ShabShoral
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4/25/2015 7:41:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 1:07:39 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
To interpose the threat of physical destruction between a man and his perception of reality, is to negate and paralyze his means of survival; to force-him to act against his own judgment, is like forcing him to act against his own sight. Whoever, to whatever purpose or extent, initiates the use of force, is a killer acting on the premise of death in a manner wider than murder: the premise of destroying man"s capacity to live.

Do not open your mouth to tell me that your mind has convinced you of your right to force my mind. Force and mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins. When you declare that men are irrational animals and propose to treat them as such, you define thereby your own character and can no longer claim the sanction of reason-as no advocate of contradictions can claim it. There can be no "right" to destroy the source of rights, the only means of judging right and wrong: the mind.

+1
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bsh1
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4/25/2015 7:44:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
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mishapqueen
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4/26/2015 11:07:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM, leojm wrote:
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments. If anything, they just made me despise my parents more. It even became a game in my mind where if I knew I was gonna get spanked I'd just put on 5 pairs of underwear beneath my shorts. Essentially, such punishments were futile in changing my behavior. I believe that no matter what the situation is, you can teach the child to not repeat negative behavior using means other than physical violence. The thing with physical punishments is that you are creating an association in the child's mind between their bad behavior and physical pain. The problem is that the moment you aren't around to dish out the physical pain, there is no longer any incentive to act good in the child's mind, i.e., if there's no chance of getting caught, there's no incentive to not act in such a manner. The child will just repeat the behavior if the parent isn't around to catch them in the act. So, if anything, you're merely forcing the child to hold themselves back while in the presence of their parents, but it does nothing to change them when the parents aren't around.

What should actually be done is to teach the child, verbally, why their behavior or actions are unacceptable. Talk to them, show them why the behavior isn't right. Unless you actually show them "why", they'll never learn. As I noted above, physical punishments only work if you're around to dish them out. If the physical punishment isn't part of the equation, for whatever reason, then the incentive to act good is lost. On the other hand, if we teach the child why such behavior/actions aren't good, then they'll always have that lesson in mind. You have to make a real, lasting impact, not a temporary one that depends on the painful effects of physical punishment.

I think this is why we have so many bad apples in society these days. When someone grows up in a house that punished them physically, and then move out to be on their own, who's going to spank them now? There's just nothing there to stop them from acting in a poor manner now that the incentive to act good is no longer part of the picture. We have to utilize more effective means of removing negative behavior or personality traits from children during their most important formative years. I believe that talking to them like adults, showing them the "why" of the whole issue, is a much more effective means.

For me, I only learned when my dad would actually sit me down and talk to me. He would start by telling me he wasn't angry, but rather "disappointed", and then would follow with his reasoning as to why. Those were really the only times I ever learned "why" my behavior was bad, and those are the lessons that stuck with me. Personally, I'll try the "why" method on my own children before ever resorting to physical violence to correct their behavior.

You are absolutely right: with older children. Younger children don't care about reason, they just want gratification. So with children under 6 or so I think spanking when the parent is calm is appropriate. As the child develops, I think there should be a combination of spanking and discussion, based on the child's progress. I think spanking should stop by 11 or 12. By that point, spanking does more harm than good.

I'm not as expert, but I grew up being spanked and I'm an experienced babysitter and I know some about how kids work.
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Blade-of-Truth
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4/26/2015 2:23:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 11:07:14 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM, leojm wrote:
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments. If anything, they just made me despise my parents more. It even became a game in my mind where if I knew I was gonna get spanked I'd just put on 5 pairs of underwear beneath my shorts. Essentially, such punishments were futile in changing my behavior. I believe that no matter what the situation is, you can teach the child to not repeat negative behavior using means other than physical violence. The thing with physical punishments is that you are creating an association in the child's mind between their bad behavior and physical pain. The problem is that the moment you aren't around to dish out the physical pain, there is no longer any incentive to act good in the child's mind, i.e., if there's no chance of getting caught, there's no incentive to not act in such a manner. The child will just repeat the behavior if the parent isn't around to catch them in the act. So, if anything, you're merely forcing the child to hold themselves back while in the presence of their parents, but it does nothing to change them when the parents aren't around.

What should actually be done is to teach the child, verbally, why their behavior or actions are unacceptable. Talk to them, show them why the behavior isn't right. Unless you actually show them "why", they'll never learn. As I noted above, physical punishments only work if you're around to dish them out. If the physical punishment isn't part of the equation, for whatever reason, then the incentive to act good is lost. On the other hand, if we teach the child why such behavior/actions aren't good, then they'll always have that lesson in mind. You have to make a real, lasting impact, not a temporary one that depends on the painful effects of physical punishment.

I think this is why we have so many bad apples in society these days. When someone grows up in a house that punished them physically, and then move out to be on their own, who's going to spank them now? There's just nothing there to stop them from acting in a poor manner now that the incentive to act good is no longer part of the picture. We have to utilize more effective means of removing negative behavior or personality traits from children during their most important formative years. I believe that talking to them like adults, showing them the "why" of the whole issue, is a much more effective means.

For me, I only learned when my dad would actually sit me down and talk to me. He would start by telling me he wasn't angry, but rather "disappointed", and then would follow with his reasoning as to why. Those were really the only times I ever learned "why" my behavior was bad, and those are the lessons that stuck with me. Personally, I'll try the "why" method on my own children before ever resorting to physical violence to correct their behavior.

You are absolutely right: with older children. Younger children don't care about reason, they just want gratification. So with children under 6 or so I think spanking when the parent is calm is appropriate. As the child develops, I think there should be a combination of spanking and discussion, based on the child's progress. I think spanking should stop by 11 or 12. By that point, spanking does more harm than good.

You have a point, but I don't think age should serve here as a general guideline. One of my biggest pet peeves about this world is how people are so heavily judged by age rather than mental and emotional maturity. It's one of the biggest problems in our current school system too with us grouping kids together based on age rather than other factors. I digress though...

I think the reason why I never considered age and what age would be good to stop spanking at is because, for me, I was very aware of my surroundings and was able to be reasoned with by the time I was four. I believe my naturally high curiosity of all things around me helped develop my reasoning abilities so quickly. The problem is that if I did ten bad things, eight of those times I was spanked, whereas the other two times I was sat down and talked to. I distinctly remember those conversations to this day, and remember how much I despised them for automatically spanking me instead of relying on reason. At the time I didn't know reason was "reason" but I knew that I only learned when they'd sit me down and talk, not when they'd spank me. With spanking, I learned not to do it again or else I'm gonna get spanked, but as soon as reason comes into the picture and that "why" element get's raised, spanking becomes counter-productive.

We tend to look at little kids (6-7 and under) as these unlearned people who still have so much to learn about the world, but I remember hating how that view affected me growing up. I was capable of so much more than what I was given credit for, adults would talk to me like a child, act silly and goofy, and the whole time I would think how stupid they are making themselves look. I'd use it to my advantage too, and would purposely sing nursery rhymes out-loud while I had my older brothers snoop dogg cassette in the Talkboy. Another time in Pre-k, I pushed a kid off of the raised ledge at the monkey bars because he cut me in line. He ended up breaking his arm from the fall. I knew what I did, but pretended like I never knew such a thing could happen from just playing around with "friends". Didn't even get a slap on the wrist. Why? Because apparently I was just a harmless child who didn't know any better.

If anything, a responsible parent should always aim to have strong dialogues with their children, and should gauge their child's capabilities from such conversations. The moment the young child is aware enough to ask "why", I think spanking should be tossed. The reason being that the moment they ask "why", an opportunity is presented for you to shape the way they understand the world, including why their own actions, if negative or bad, are negative or bad. I can't speak for all parents, nor can I speak for all children, I'm simply basing this off of my own experiences. Personally, I won't ever forget my own capabilities at such a young age, and because of that, will try my hardest to never underestimate my own children when that time comes.
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mishapqueen
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4/26/2015 2:32:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:23:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:07:14 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments. If anything, they just made me despise my parents more. It even became a game in my mind where if I knew I was gonna get spanked I'd just put on 5 pairs of underwear beneath my shorts. Essentially, such punishments were futile in changing my behavior. I believe that no matter what the situation is, you can teach the child to not repeat negative behavior using means other than physical violence. The thing with physical punishments is that you are creating an association in the child's mind between their bad behavior and physical pain. The problem is that the moment you aren't around to dish out the physical pain, there is no longer any incentive to act good in the child's mind, i.e., if there's no chance of getting caught, there's no incentive to not act in such a manner. The child will just repeat the behavior if the parent isn't around to catch them in the act. So, if anything, you're merely forcing the child to hold themselves back while in the presence of their parents, but it does nothing to change them when the parents aren't around.

What should actually be done is to teach the child, verbally, why their behavior or actions are unacceptable. Talk to them, show them why the behavior isn't right. Unless you actually show them "why", they'll never learn. As I noted above, physical punishments only work if you're around to dish them out. If the physical punishment isn't part of the equation, for whatever reason, then the incentive to act good is lost. On the other hand, if we teach the child why such behavior/actions aren't good, then they'll always have that lesson in mind. You have to make a real, lasting impact, not a temporary one that depends on the painful effects of physical punishment.

I think this is why we have so many bad apples in society these days. When someone grows up in a house that punished them physically, and then move out to be on their own, who's going to spank them now? There's just nothing there to stop them from acting in a poor manner now that the incentive to act good is no longer part of the picture. We have to utilize more effective means of removing negative behavior or personality traits from children during their most important formative years. I believe that talking to them like adults, showing them the "why" of the whole issue, is a much more effective means.

For me, I only learned when my dad would actually sit me down and talk to me. He would start by telling me he wasn't angry, but rather "disappointed", and then would follow with his reasoning as to why. Those were really the only times I ever learned "why" my behavior was bad, and those are the lessons that stuck with me. Personally, I'll try the "why" method on my own children before ever resorting to physical violence to correct their behavior.

You are absolutely right: with older children. Younger children don't care about reason, they just want gratification. So with children under 6 or so I think spanking when the parent is calm is appropriate. As the child develops, I think there should be a combination of spanking and discussion, based on the child's progress. I think spanking should stop by 11 or 12. By that point, spanking does more harm than good.

You have a point, but I don't think age should serve here as a general guideline. One of my biggest pet peeves about this world is how people are so heavily judged by age rather than mental and emotional maturity. It's one of the biggest problems in our current school system too with us grouping kids together based on age rather than other factors. I digress though...

I think the reason why I never considered age and what age would be good to stop spanking at is because, for me, I was very aware of my surroundings and was able to be reasoned with by the time I was four. I believe my naturally high curiosity of all things around me helped develop my reasoning abilities so quickly. The problem is that if I did ten bad things, eight of those times I was spanked, whereas the other two times I was sat down and talked to. I distinctly remember those conversations to this day, and remember how much I despised them for automatically spanking me instead of relying on reason. At the time I didn't know reason was "reason" but I knew that I only learned when they'd sit me down and talk, not when they'd spank me. With spanking, I learned not to do it again or else I'm gonna get spanked, but as soon as reason comes into the picture and that "why" element get's raised, spanking becomes counter-productive.

We tend to look at little kids (6-7 and under) as these unlearned people who still have so much to learn about the world, but I remember hating how that view affected me growing up. I was capable of so much more than what I was given credit for, adults would talk to me like a child, act silly and goofy, and the whole time I would think how stupid they are making themselves look. I'd use it to my advantage too, and would purposely sing nursery rhymes out-loud while I had my older brothers snoop dogg cassette in the Talkboy. Another time in Pre-k, I pushed a kid off of the raised ledge at the monkey bars because he cut me in line. He ended up breaking his arm from the fall. I knew what I did, but pretended like I never knew such a thing could happen from just playing around with "friends". Didn't even get a slap on the wrist. Why? Because apparently I was just a harmless child who didn't know any better.

If anything, a responsible parent should always aim to have strong dialogues with their children, and should gauge their child's capabilities from such conversations. The moment the young child is aware enough to ask "why", I think spanking should be tossed. The reason being that the moment they ask "why", an opportunity is presented for you to shape the way they understand the world, including why their own actions, if negative or bad, are negative or bad. I can't speak for all parents, nor can I speak for all children, I'm simply basing this off of my own experiences. Personally, I won't ever forget my own capabilities at such a young age, and because of that, will try my hardest to never underestimate my own children when that time comes.

That makes sense, and I agree that you have to gauge the child's attitudes and capabilities and not simply put them in a box. I didn't mean to say we should go off age alone, but I think it is rare for four year olds to be that reasoned. I think there is a place for both kinds of discipline.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
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Blade-of-Truth
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4/26/2015 2:38:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:32:00 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:23:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:07:14 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments. If anything, they just made me despise my parents more. It even became a game in my mind where if I knew I was gonna get spanked I'd just put on 5 pairs of underwear beneath my shorts. Essentially, such punishments were futile in changing my behavior. I believe that no matter what the situation is, you can teach the child to not repeat negative behavior using means other than physical violence. The thing with physical punishments is that you are creating an association in the child's mind between their bad behavior and physical pain. The problem is that the moment you aren't around to dish out the physical pain, there is no longer any incentive to act good in the child's mind, i.e., if there's no chance of getting caught, there's no incentive to not act in such a manner. The child will just repeat the behavior if the parent isn't around to catch them in the act. So, if anything, you're merely forcing the child to hold themselves back while in the presence of their parents, but it does nothing to change them when the parents aren't around.

What should actually be done is to teach the child, verbally, why their behavior or actions are unacceptable. Talk to them, show them why the behavior isn't right. Unless you actually show them "why", they'll never learn. As I noted above, physical punishments only work if you're around to dish them out. If the physical punishment isn't part of the equation, for whatever reason, then the incentive to act good is lost. On the other hand, if we teach the child why such behavior/actions aren't good, then they'll always have that lesson in mind. You have to make a real, lasting impact, not a temporary one that depends on the painful effects of physical punishment.

I think this is why we have so many bad apples in society these days. When someone grows up in a house that punished them physically, and then move out to be on their own, who's going to spank them now? There's just nothing there to stop them from acting in a poor manner now that the incentive to act good is no longer part of the picture. We have to utilize more effective means of removing negative behavior or personality traits from children during their most important formative years. I believe that talking to them like adults, showing them the "why" of the whole issue, is a much more effective means.

For me, I only learned when my dad would actually sit me down and talk to me. He would start by telling me he wasn't angry, but rather "disappointed", and then would follow with his reasoning as to why. Those were really the only times I ever learned "why" my behavior was bad, and those are the lessons that stuck with me. Personally, I'll try the "why" method on my own children before ever resorting to physical violence to correct their behavior.

You are absolutely right: with older children. Younger children don't care about reason, they just want gratification. So with children under 6 or so I think spanking when the parent is calm is appropriate. As the child develops, I think there should be a combination of spanking and discussion, based on the child's progress. I think spanking should stop by 11 or 12. By that point, spanking does more harm than good.

You have a point, but I don't think age should serve here as a general guideline. One of my biggest pet peeves about this world is how people are so heavily judged by age rather than mental and emotional maturity. It's one of the biggest problems in our current school system too with us grouping kids together based on age rather than other factors. I digress though...

I think the reason why I never considered age and what age would be good to stop spanking at is because, for me, I was very aware of my surroundings and was able to be reasoned with by the time I was four. I believe my naturally high curiosity of all things around me helped develop my reasoning abilities so quickly. The problem is that if I did ten bad things, eight of those times I was spanked, whereas the other two times I was sat down and talked to. I distinctly remember those conversations to this day, and remember how much I despised them for automatically spanking me instead of relying on reason. At the time I didn't know reason was "reason" but I knew that I only learned when they'd sit me down and talk, not when they'd spank me. With spanking, I learned not to do it again or else I'm gonna get spanked, but as soon as reason comes into the picture and that "why" element get's raised, spanking becomes counter-productive.

We tend to look at little kids (6-7 and under) as these unlearned people who still have so much to learn about the world, but I remember hating how that view affected me growing up. I was capable of so much more than what I was given credit for, adults would talk to me like a child, act silly and goofy, and the whole time I would think how stupid they are making themselves look. I'd use it to my advantage too, and would purposely sing nursery rhymes out-loud while I had my older brothers snoop dogg cassette in the Talkboy. Another time in Pre-k, I pushed a kid off of the raised ledge at the monkey bars because he cut me in line. He ended up breaking his arm from the fall. I knew what I did, but pretended like I never knew such a thing could happen from just playing around with "friends". Didn't even get a slap on the wrist. Why? Because apparently I was just a harmless child who didn't know any better.

If anything, a responsible parent should always aim to have strong dialogues with their children, and should gauge their child's capabilities from such conversations. The moment the young child is aware enough to ask "why", I think spanking should be tossed. The reason being that the moment they ask "why", an opportunity is presented for you to shape the way they understand the world, including why their own actions, if negative or bad, are negative or bad. I can't speak for all parents, nor can I speak for all children, I'm simply basing this off of my own experiences. Personally, I won't ever forget my own capabilities at such a young age, and because of that, will try my hardest to never underestimate my own children when that time comes.

That makes sense, and I agree that you have to gauge the child's attitudes and capabilities and not simply put them in a box. I didn't mean to say we should go off age alone, but I think it is rare for four year olds to be that reasoned. I think there is a place for both kinds of discipline.

I suppose at the end of the day, there really is a place for both kinds of discipline. I mean, how else can you really punish something that can't be reasoned with? I get that. I just think we need to pay close attention to where the line gets drawn with it actually being an effective punishment vs. being a counter-productive punishment. Age is, by all means, the easiest tool at our disposal for generalizing such things, but ultimately I believe the parents have an obligation to stop such a punishment once the ability to reason has become available.
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mishapqueen
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4/26/2015 2:40:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:38:30 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:32:00 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:23:44 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:07:14 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments. If anything, they just made me despise my parents more. It even became a game in my mind where if I knew I was gonna get spanked I'd just put on 5 pairs of underwear beneath my shorts. Essentially, such punishments were futile in changing my behavior. I believe that no matter what the situation is, you can teach the child to not repeat negative behavior using means other than physical violence. The thing with physical punishments is that you are creating an association in the child's mind between their bad behavior and physical pain. The problem is that the moment you aren't around to dish out the physical pain, there is no longer any incentive to act good in the child's mind, i.e., if there's no chance of getting caught, there's no incentive to not act in such a manner. The child will just repeat the behavior if the parent isn't around to catch them in the act. So, if anything, you're merely forcing the child to hold themselves back while in the presence of their parents, but it does nothing to change them when the parents aren't around.

What should actually be done is to teach the child, verbally, why their behavior or actions are unacceptable. Talk to them, show them why the behavior isn't right. Unless you actually show them "why", they'll never learn. As I noted above, physical punishments only work if you're around to dish them out. If the physical punishment isn't part of the equation, for whatever reason, then the incentive to act good is lost. On the other hand, if we teach the child why such behavior/actions aren't good, then they'll always have that lesson in mind. You have to make a real, lasting impact, not a temporary one that depends on the painful effects of physical punishment.

I think this is why we have so many bad apples in society these days. When someone grows up in a house that punished them physically, and then move out to be on their own, who's going to spank them now? There's just nothing there to stop them from acting in a poor manner now that the incentive to act good is no longer part of the picture. We have to utilize more effective means of removing negative behavior or personality traits from children during their most important formative years. I believe that talking to them like adults, showing them the "why" of the whole issue, is a much more effective means.

For me, I only learned when my dad would actually sit me down and talk to me. He would start by telling me he wasn't angry, but rather "disappointed", and then would follow with his reasoning as to why. Those were really the only times I ever learned "why" my behavior was bad, and those are the lessons that stuck with me. Personally, I'll try the "why" method on my own children before ever resorting to physical violence to correct their behavior.

You are absolutely right: with older children. Younger children don't care about reason, they just want gratification. So with children under 6 or so I think spanking when the parent is calm is appropriate. As the child develops, I think there should be a combination of spanking and discussion, based on the child's progress. I think spanking should stop by 11 or 12. By that point, spanking does more harm than good.

You have a point, but I don't think age should serve here as a general guideline. One of my biggest pet peeves about this world is how people are so heavily judged by age rather than mental and emotional maturity. It's one of the biggest problems in our current school system too with us grouping kids together based on age rather than other factors. I digress though...

I think the reason why I never considered age and what age would be good to stop spanking at is because, for me, I was very aware of my surroundings and was able to be reasoned with by the time I was four. I believe my naturally high curiosity of all things around me helped develop my reasoning abilities so quickly. The problem is that if I did ten bad things, eight of those times I was spanked, whereas the other two times I was sat down and talked to. I distinctly remember those conversations to this day, and remember how much I despised them for automatically spanking me instead of relying on reason. At the time I didn't know reason was "reason" but I knew that I only learned when they'd sit me down and talk, not when they'd spank me. With spanking, I learned not to do it again or else I'm gonna get spanked, but as soon as reason comes into the picture and that "why" element get's raised, spanking becomes counter-productive.

We tend to look at little kids (6-7 and under) as these unlearned people who still have so much to learn about the world, but I remember hating how that view affected me growing up. I was capable of so much more than what I was given credit for, adults would talk to me like a child, act silly and goofy, and the whole time I would think how stupid they are making themselves look. I'd use it to my advantage too, and would purposely sing nursery rhymes out-loud while I had my older brothers snoop dogg cassette in the Talkboy. Another time in Pre-k, I pushed a kid off of the raised ledge at the monkey bars because he cut me in line. He ended up breaking his arm from the fall. I knew what I did, but pretended like I never knew such a thing could happen from just playing around with "friends". Didn't even get a slap on the wrist. Why? Because apparently I was just a harmless child who didn't know any better.

If anything, a responsible parent should always aim to have strong dialogues with their children, and should gauge their child's capabilities from such conversations. The moment the young child is aware enough to ask "why", I think spanking should be tossed. The reason being that the moment they ask "why", an opportunity is presented for you to shape the way they understand the world, including why their own actions, if negative or bad, are negative or bad. I can't speak for all parents, nor can I speak for all children, I'm simply basing this off of my own experiences. Personally, I won't ever forget my own capabilities at such a young age, and because of that, will try my hardest to never underestimate my own children when that time comes.

That makes sense, and I agree that you have to gauge the child's attitudes and capabilities and not simply put them in a box. I didn't mean to say we should go off age alone, but I think it is rare for four year olds to be that reasoned. I think there is a place for both kinds of discipline.

I suppose at the end of the day, there really is a place for both kinds of discipline. I mean, how else can you really punish something that can't be reasoned with? I get that. I just think we need to pay close attention to where the line gets drawn with it actually being an effective punishment vs. being a counter-productive punishment. Age is, by all means, the easiest tool at our disposal for generalizing such things, but ultimately I believe the parents have an obligation to stop such a punishment once the ability to reason has become available.

I can agree with that. My parents spanked me too long, so I understand that. I think if there is a good parent and child relationship and understanding, problems can be avoided.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

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Wylted
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4/26/2015 6:51:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm agree with mishap queen also. Once kids develop the ability to reason spanking becomes pointless.

It should also be done in a calm mood and be applied in a consistent manner.
leojm
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4/27/2015 8:23:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM, leojm wrote:
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments. If anything, they just made me despise my parents more. It even became a game in my mind where if I knew I was gonna get spanked I'd just put on 5 pairs of underwear beneath my shorts. Essentially, such punishments were futile in changing my behavior. I believe that no matter what the situation is, you can teach the child to not repeat negative behavior using means other than physical violence. The thing with physical punishments is that you are creating an association in the child's mind between their bad behavior and physical pain. The problem is that the moment you aren't around to dish out the physical pain, there is no longer any incentive to act good in the child's mind, i.e., if there's no chance of getting caught, there's no incentive to not act in such a manner. The child will just repeat the behavior if the parent isn't around to catch them in the act. So, if anything, you're merely forcing the child to hold themselves back while in the presence of their parents, but it does nothing to change them when the parents aren't around.

What should actually be done is to teach the child, verbally, why their behavior or actions are unacceptable. Talk to them, show them why the behavior isn't right. Unless you actually show them "why", they'll never learn. As I noted above, physical punishments only work if you're around to dish them out. If the physical punishment isn't part of the equation, for whatever reason, then the incentive to act good is lost. On the other hand, if we teach the child why such behavior/actions aren't good, then they'll always have that lesson in mind. You have to make a real, lasting impact, not a temporary one that depends on the painful effects of physical punishment.

I think this is why we have so many bad apples in society these days. When someone grows up in a house that punished them physically, and then move out to be on their own, who's going to spank them now? There's just nothing there to stop them from acting in a poor manner now that the incentive to act good is no longer part of the picture. We have to utilize more effective means of removing negative behavior or personality traits from children during their most important formative years. I believe that talking to them like adults, showing them the "why" of the whole issue, is a much more effective means.

For me, I only learned when my dad would actually sit me down and talk to me. He would start by telling me he wasn't angry, but rather "disappointed", and then would follow with his reasoning as to why. Those were really the only times I ever learned "why" my behavior was bad, and those are the lessons that stuck with me. Personally, I'll try the "why" method on my own children before ever resorting to physical violence to correct their behavior.

everybody got their own ways of learning their lessons.
ESocialBookworm
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4/27/2015 8:43:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Nothing is black or white.

In Caribbean countries, spanking and 'licks' is prevalent. This can be seen from the viral video that went around that a mother uploaded when her daughter posted topless pics on fb.
Sometimes, I guess, it's necessary to discipline your children. In areas like mine, 'grounding' or taking away technological devices don't work as effectively as beatings do. I've gotten 'licks' before, and I did deserve it- but my parents never overdid it with me.
If I ever have children and they misbehave badly, like that girl did (but my kids would never do that because they'd know better), I would do the same.
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leojm
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4/27/2015 8:47:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:43:19 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Nothing is black or white.

In Caribbean countries, spanking and 'licks' is prevalent. This can be seen from the viral video that went around that a mother uploaded when her daughter posted topless pics on fb.
Sometimes, I guess, it's necessary to discipline your children. In areas like mine, 'grounding' or taking away technological devices don't work as effectively as beatings do. I've gotten 'licks' before, and I did deserve it- but my parents never overdid it with me.
If I ever have children and they misbehave badly, like that girl did (but my kids would never do that because they'd know better), I would do the same.

I think a lot of people confuse discipline with abuse, abuse is hitting a kid for no reason discipline is hitting thew kid for what wrong has been done. But today's liberal society we want to make sure no
"FEELINGS" are hurt, go figure why kids are disrespectful they know nothing can be done to them they are invincible, they can disrespect teachers and all authoritative, because they cant do anything to them. how wrong and sick is that.
Khaos_Mage
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4/27/2015 9:48:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)

False.
(Source: experience)

Also, there is little chance you could know this tends to do emotional harm.
And, there is a difference between physically harming a child and abuse.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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4/27/2015 10:27:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM, leojm wrote:
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn't you just have a post talking you quitting your job at a restaurant? If so, then you clearly have no problem teaching a lesson with your fists (as you said, "we'd settle it in the streets" or something to that effect).
So, why is it odd? In fact, it seems hypocritical that you'd respond physically at all if your view is that no one learns from it.

And, if I am thinking of someone else, then ignore this.
My work here is, finally, done.
Blade-of-Truth
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4/27/2015 12:43:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:47:24 AM, leojm wrote:
At 4/27/2015 8:43:19 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Nothing is black or white.

In Caribbean countries, spanking and 'licks' is prevalent. This can be seen from the viral video that went around that a mother uploaded when her daughter posted topless pics on fb.
Sometimes, I guess, it's necessary to discipline your children. In areas like mine, 'grounding' or taking away technological devices don't work as effectively as beatings do. I've gotten 'licks' before, and I did deserve it- but my parents never overdid it with me.
If I ever have children and they misbehave badly, like that girl did (but my kids would never do that because they'd know better), I would do the same.

I think a lot of people confuse discipline with abuse, abuse is hitting a kid for no reason discipline is hitting thew kid for what wrong has been done. But today's liberal society we want to make sure no
"FEELINGS" are hurt, go figure why kids are disrespectful they know nothing can be done to them they are invincible, they can disrespect teachers and all authoritative, because they cant do anything to them. how wrong and sick is that.

If they were raised properly from the beginning they wouldn't be disrespecting teachers and thinking they are invincible. All you have to do is teach them about respect and humility. It literally all comes back to the parents. Additionally, if they are disrespecting a teacher "purposely" then there is most likely a reason as to "why". It'd probably be useful to ask them "why" they are doing it before automatically hitting them. Personally, I'm not a liberal, nor do I think it all comes down to wanting to make sure "no feelings are hurt", I just want to make sure lazy parents actually realize that if their kid is a jackazz, like how you described in your example above, it's most likely due to a failure on the parent's part. So, for a parent to hit the child because the parent failed to teach them proper life lessons at the right age, it just seems both hypocritical (because the parent f*cked up by not actually teaching their child) and ridiculous.
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Blade-of-Truth
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4/27/2015 12:56:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:27:05 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:21:31 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 4/25/2015 11:26:51 AM, leojm wrote:
I believe why kids are acting the way they do such as being disrespectful and all, is because parents don't discipline their own kids anymore. I'm strongly for kids being disciplined to the point of whipping the kid till he/she learns not to do that. I believe in punishing for bad behavior not rewarding it. I see all the time kids disrespecting their parents in stores and everywhere else, every time i see that i think if that was my kid i would have slapped him/her if they started mouthing off, but in today's society people see this as "child abuse" but in reality its not. some kids don't have any manners whatsoever. Back then kids were seen and not heard and the only thing that should come out of their mouths when asked something to do is Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am. I miss those days. When i have kids i will train them right all this discipline is worth it in the end.
they will become a better person. I will admit my dad whipped me with a belt many times, after a few times i learned. I hated it then but now i see what difference it made in me, im respectful towards people or at least try to be.

That's an odd perspective. Personally, I never learned from physical punishments.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but didn't you just have a post talking you quitting your job at a restaurant? If so, then you clearly have no problem teaching a lesson with your fists (as you said, "we'd settle it in the streets" or something to that effect).

No, you're not wrong - that was me :) I think there is a difference between fighting a grown man who disrespected me and teaching my own child a life-lesson. That man is both a stranger and someone I don't care about, at all. On the flip side, my child is just that - my child, my creation, and he/she would have my whole heart. So no, just because I'd fight a disrespectful stranger in the street does not mean I'd hit my own kids to teach them a lesson.

So, why is it odd? In fact, it seems hypocritical that you'd respond physically at all if your view is that no one learns from it.

I can see why it'd *seem* hypocritical, but those are two completely different scenarios. I wouldn't fight my kids for disrespecting me, lmao. I'd respond physically to strangers who are grown men because I could care less about them, I mean, I'm not trying to teach a stranger a lesson - I just want to beat his azz for disrespecting me. With my kids, I'd actually want to teach them a lesson, and personally believe that it'd be much more effective if I sat them down and reasoned with them rather than depending on physical violence. Why? Because I'd actually care about them - that's the main difference between the two scenarios. Well, that and the fact that they're just children, but that should go without saying.
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1harderthanyouthink
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4/27/2015 2:22:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:48:53 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)

False.
(Source: experience)

Also, there is little chance you could know this tends to do emotional harm.
And, there is a difference between physically harming a child and abuse.

How about continuous harming of a child?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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RevNge
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4/27/2015 2:31:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:48:53 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)

False.
(Source: experience)

u lie
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,098
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4/27/2015 2:34:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:48:53 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)

False.
(Source: experience)

Also, there is little chance you could know this tends to do emotional harm.
And, there is a difference between physically harming a child and abuse.

http://www.apa.org...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/27/2015 2:36:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 2:22:11 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:48:53 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/25/2015 12:28:41 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Physically harming a child tends to emotionally fvck them over.

(Source: experience)

False.
(Source: experience)

Also, there is little chance you could know this tends to do emotional harm.
And, there is a difference between physically harming a child and abuse.

How about continuous harming of a child?

Possibly.
I was beat as a child, often. I think mostly it was disciplinary, but it was excessive and/or unwarranted. That was abuse, and it can cause emotional harm, but my older brother is the one who got it the worst, and he is the most "normal" of us all. My younger brother got next to nothing, as we protected him, and he is the most stunted of us all.
So, all this anecdotal evidence, really depends on the child and home to make such a statement, and "studies" are just a collection of anecdotes. I think the excessive punishments of a child (i.e. abuse) are not as emotionally damaging as other factors, namely living in fear and/or feeling unwelcome in your own home.

After all, punishment can be non physical and just as abusive.
My work here is, finally, done.