Total Posts:248|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Announcement

YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:15:08 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
It"s been a long, fun, nearly five year ride. When I first joined DDO, it was the wild West. It was fun. There was almost no oversight. People could say and do almost anything they wanted, and the community was responsible for itself. But we"re in an environment where DDO shifted from kind of a place where everyone from normal teenagers to outright eccentrics could find a place to engage in vigorous debate with others, to become a place where everyone is more concerned about preventing "drama" (which is ironic, in many ways) than anything else. The implication is that we"ve been increasingly moving in the direction away from freedom, and towards "over moderation" really for the past two years, with forum activity, voting, etc. which is why, I think, the character of the place has changed.

My interest is only in free, unfettered, vigorous discourse. Not simply an exchange of ideas, but more than that. Debate. Argument. Challenge. I love it all; I love debating politics, moral issues, ethical questions that resonate at every aspect of life, and doing that in an adversarial way. The problem is that now, there are too many people whose feelings get hurt too easily, who then whine to moderation with regularity, which prompts Max and white flame to respond.

The reason it prompts Max to respond is because of the indignant nature that people take whenever they interact with someone with whom they disagree; on DDO, that"s a "cry to moderation" but on campuses it"s #blacklivesmatter. That"s a problem, if not "the" problem. We"re at a point where we"re no longer comfortable talking with people who disagree with us, and that manifests clearly in the nature of many members" interactions. Examples of that trend abound, especially in recent weeks.

(To preempt the charge that I"m being hypocritical here, I"m not, because it"s never been personal with me. Never has, and never will be. Even if I"m into "punching bag" mode, it"s still not personal.)

DDO has become an After-School Day Care or Social Club, and is no longer the "Neighborhood Pool Hall" it once was

The term "day care" or "social club" refers to the sort of social structure that this place has become in recent years; more like club penguin than it is a debate website, or a forum for political discussion. For example, in the moment there is any kind of a disagreement among members, Max and white flame or peters or certain members themselves think moderation should get involved whenever someone"s feelings are hurt. The problem, though, is how easily sensibilities are offended.

It used to be the case that DDO was kind of like a pool hall, and, in particular, an Irish bar or pool hall (like the ones I used to sneak into when I was a kid on the North Shore). In an Irish bar, you"ve got a lot of freedom. You can say what you want, to whom you want, and there may be fights, but everybody"s friends in the end. But we"re not like that anymore. Now, we"ve got a bunch of emotionally stunted adult-children, and teenagers (some of whom are more mature emotionally than the "adult children" to whom I previously referred), and teenagers. The really critical difference between what DDO was, and what it is now, exists in the site"s tolerance for disagreement and conflict among members.

This movement is done under the auspices of "civility" but the standard for what is "civil" versus what is not, as decided by white flame and airmax, really is functionally nothing other than "not doing things that makes people whine."

This standard is becoming increasingly more clear; as all moderation now, without question (though I"m sure Max will disagree) is motivated by people whose skin isn"t as thick as it should be; the emotionally fragile, volatile people who increasingly complain about more and more irrelevant things with greater and greater indignation than ever before. DDO has become sympathetic to whiners, and a whiner I am not, nor have I ever been" though I have been the subject of more whining than perhaps any member of this site.

This small, but vocal minority of whiners is as sensitive as they are vocal; but they comprise a fairly influential group on this site. We know who they are. Their whining has made this place too politically correct, smothering, and unwelcoming to political views that are inconsistent with theirs; but it wasn"t always like this. Once there was a higher tolerance for conflict on the site based on the understanding that member disputes (like wildfires) could burn themselves out. Examples of the kinds of conflict I"m talking about are like this: disagreement over things a member has done in the past, disagreements over big political issues that turn into lively and spirited conversations, and disagreements over site leadership"s ability to moderate, run tournaments, vote, moderate votes, etc.

Moderation norms have reflected the shift, perhaps driven it; but at the end of the day it doesn"t matter. Moderation norms now are consistent wit the social club model. If that"s what DDO wants, then who am I to dispute that? The implication, though, is that site has changed, and in so doing it has left me behind.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:18:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I can not be a part of the social club.

A lot of what I"ve done, especially in the last few months, has been a rebellion against that model. I"ve been unrestrained in responding to members who say and do stupid things, and I"ve pulled no punches.

In a lot of respects, that was me trying to figure out where the line actually was; but even more than that, I think it was my subconscious response to what I observed happening once white flame became a mod. It is also no secret that the amount of stress in my life has amplified, so I"ve needed a "punching bag" more often, and there have been members who have served that purpose for me quite effectively.

Do I hold myself out as someone who has "never" caused any conflicts? Of course not. I have an extremely strong and dominating personality that many people frankly cannot handle. I don"t moderate myself on this site because I have used it to blow off steam. This place was where I come to "let it out" after a tedious day. And it is indeed the case that DDO"s been pretty good for that.

I nearly always feel better after a spirited argument with someone else; mainly because I almost never lose, and I like the feeling of winning. But what I"ve not especially cared about for a long time is what it feels like to "lose" to me, and there are a lot of people who have, or, in the alternative, who I have caused to become so angry with me that they maintain strong and very emotionally charged grudges against me. I guess that"s fair, but it"s not something I"ve ever been bothered with.

Even to this day, when there are members who have chronically engaged in identical behaviors that I have, my response has always been: "Don"t ban them, or me. Let them go on, and leave me alone." Max listened to that for a long time; he got it, and was comfortable with it because he understood that people who voluntarily participate in conflicts shouldn"t necessarily be admonished for doing so. But the more and more members whine, the more and more moderators function more like baby sitters than mods of a site with adults and teenagers alike. I'm tired of it. When Max appointed whiteflame, who more than anyone else is nothing more than an over-glorified baby sitter, he was trying to make clear to me that he wasn"t going to accept that status quo moving forward.

Why I am leaving now, a year late:

This is probably the cheesiest part of my going away thread, and I hate to do it, but it"s really just as accurate as anything I can think of: "You die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Years ago, before the sort of transition that we"ve seen happen now, this kind of conversation would never have happened. In many respects, I never thought the site would become a place I"d outgrown, because I really liked it here. That"s why I"ve been a member for almost five years. But the site has changed, and I haven"t changed with it. I think we all pretty much agree that what I want from DDO is very different than what most others want from DDO.

We"ve got a lot more kids now, a lot fewer adults, and the atmosphere of the site has sort of shifted from (if you want to take this to the metaphorical level) "neighborhood pool hall" filled with adults and some kids who managed to sneak in, to "after-school daycare." Please note that I don"t say that to demean any of the kids here; hayd, 1harder, tej, and many others are really good guys, and I enjoy interacting with them" but in many respects I am a terrible example for them to follow at least on here.

It"s probably unfair that I"ve used DDO as a punching bag as extensively as I have, and I have used particular members (who are really no more than nutters and low hanging fruit) as targets. I admit that. I"ve played dumb on it, pretended to be ignorant, etc. but while I have never "sought out" conflicts, I have certainly never ignored an opportunity to engage in one.

I have done this on the assumption that everyone who tangos with me does so a a willing participant, but the reality is that there are some people on DDO who are so emotionally volatile and vindictive that they cannot walk away; doing so is constitutionally impossible for them, even to the extent that in a vain effort to claim a moral high ground they"ll modify their signatures in curious acts of passive aggression to attempt to shame others who have embarrassed them.

On balance, there are still a lot of very good people on DDO. Chris, Hannah, Hayd, Tej, Esocial, Ken, Marie, TUF, Joey, TBR, thett3, Blade-of-Truth, Cody-Franklin, Skep, FT, and even the people with whom I"ve had some spirited disagreement" like Max and Raisor. But there are also a lot of others who are pretty awful, and it"s been clear in my absence that they"ve really taken it upon themselves to show DDO just how nice they can be. It looks like their efforts have been effective, too, based upon my review of the personal and society forums.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:21:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Lingering Issues: What if I Stayed? What if I left?

There are two lingering issues as I identify them: what might have happened if I stayed, and what impact I anticipate my departure will bring. If I stayed, I would have eventually been permanently banned. I know this, and I"ve been "feeling" it coming for a while, but Max never took affirmative steps to make that clear, though the way white flame moderates and the extent to which Max listens to him change that calculation.

The after school day care model of interaction has carried the day; and it wins by my absence, because I think I"m the last of the really strong personalities that remains. Even Imabench has, more or less, been tamed. He"s not who he used to be. This transition is something that I think many have picked up on; and Cody-Franklin and TUF both have made threads and/or comments discussing what this transition.

They"re right. I can see some form of "sensitivity training" following moderation encounters in the future, or "diversity training" or something like that. We"re on that path, and that"s what it appears to me that people want, more and more. I also don"t see any evidence to suggest that that social order will not eventually come to pass. It might not be called "sensitivity training" but that's what function it will serve.

What"s worse is that the implications of their being right means either that I remain on DDO and never get from this site what I want, or I leave. I chose to leave, because I know what comes next. This has been caused by members orienting their activity on a site to focus primarily on how offended they are at what someone else does. The consequences is obvious: not only do they ruin it for themselves, but they ruin it for everyone else.

In terms of what impact my departure will bring, I expect very little to change, other than the general absence of me, as a member, contributor, poster, voter, and source of general controversy with about three or four specific members. These impacts exist in two categories, short term and long term. The short term impacts are fairly easy to predict. Some people who dislike me are going to make weak jabs" the whole "kick him while he"s down" mentality that very much was reflected in the weakest members of this site.

Some aren"t going to care; because while the like some of the things I"ve done in the past they dislike others so they will view my departure with ambivalence. Some will be very sad; and to the 19 of you who emailed me when I left, thank you. But everyone will get over it. I"m not indispensable. I"ve just had a big presence. The site will change, but the site"s changed dozens of times before. I am not that important.

Perhaps the most substantive concern for me, nevertheless, is the long term impact that my departure will have on specific members with whom I have formed close friendships, and they are many. I know that my leaving will hurt people. To that end, I may still periodically drop by in hangouts, and you can email me. But I will never post in the forums, engage in any debates, vote on any debates, participate in polls, etc. again, after the end of this week or so. There are still some loose ends I need to tie up so I will be around for that interim period, but after that I am done. But duly considering all of that, I will make it easy for you all to remain in contact with me.

Regarding the long term impacts, I do a lot on this site; I have the highest substantive post count of any member on this site by far, and even the members below me" the only reason their post counts are what they are is because either of Mafia or spamming the misc section. Intellectually, I bring more to the table in more areas than most, and it shows. My interests are both broad and deep, and that"s reflected in the sum of everything I"ve done. That is over. The forums will be less vibrant, because I drive those conversations in many respects.

DDO"s Future: moderation, the presidency, and what impact the social club model will have on overall participation on the site.

With regard to moderation, as many of you know, Max"s time on this site will eventually come to an end. Presumably when he gets married, or maybe before that, once he finds someone in his life who is more than a lady friend" and I don"t say that judgmentally. I hope he finds someone, and eventually starts a family. I think that will be the point where he turns DDO over to Whiteflame.

It"s always been very clear to me, really for about two years ago when Max first tossed around the idea of making white flame a mod, that he would eventually be Max"s replacement. Maybe I knew it before Max did, but the cards were lining up in that direction. I can"t imagine that Whiteflame will ruin DDO, but I know unequivocally that he will make DDO into something I cannot stand to see. I lament the social club model, which really plays by the same rules as what you might expect from a high school after school activity. It"s smothering, and I can"t willfully be a part of it. White flame"s being a mod means that that"s where DDO is headed. I also anticipated that from the beginning, which is why I adamantly opposed Whiteflame"s being a mod. It"s why I went to such great lengths, I though, to have Bladerunner as a mod.

Bladerunner, in addition to being more in touch with the world and how people in it are, is a more reasonable person than Whiteflame. He was smarter, a better judge of character, less self righteous and stubborn and more willing to reason with people. His absence is the greatest loss DDO has ever sustained; more so even than my own will be. Unlike whiteflame, Bladerunner would have never invented rules and terms for the purpose of achieving some desired result.

As should be clear, with respect to whiteflame, when he leaves DDO (which I imagine he will do within six month"s of Airmax"s eventual departure) there might be less overreach, but the damage by then will have been done. Not only will the old, good members have left by then as so many already have; new ones like them will never see DDO as a place they would want to be, because there is no real vigorous discussion on DDO anymore.

With regard to the presidency, it has been largely irrelevant for reasons that I think we all know. Bsh1 can"t handle any kind of criticism of him or anything he does, and we all know it, so no one bothers to tell him anything he needs to improve on. Mikal essentially ruined the presidency, though; so I think after that any president could really serve no real purpose beyond being a cheerleader for the site. I frankly should have never gotten involved either in Mikal"s campaign, or encouraged bsh1 to run for anything.

Probably the worst thing I have done on this site was get Mikal elected and oust Bladerunner. In addition to Mikal"s universally acknowledged incompetence and volatility, he destroyed any legitimacy the office of the presidency on this site ever held. I was aware that could have happened, but I didn"t think Mikal would be as much of a disastrous failure as he was. I have never been more wrong about my assessment of another person.

The reason what I did regarding Mikal"s winning was wrong was because in getting Mikal elected, that more or less laid the groundwork for Bladerunner"s departure (even though he left for other reasons). It is probably the only thing I truly regret doing here, at any time in the almost five years I"ve spent on this site.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:22:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I think overall participation on the site is going to continue to decline, because there will never be another "great" member of this site. This sort of "honeymoon" where certain people make a great show of how wonderful they are for all the site to see will eventually end, and more and more of the best members will leave because DDO fundamentally does not offer what it once did.

There will still be Hall of Fame members. There will still be tournament champions, and there may even be a few decent mafia games a year, but the reality is that we"re in a position, as a site, where the site"s conditions are hostile to outliers"of which I am decidedly one. What I mean by that is this: the people who are going to bring the most to DDO are the ones who are going to push the envelope, who are going to challenge members, who will be critical of the status quo and who will challenge those in authority. They are the ones who will try to reshape DDO; to mold it into something better than it is now.

But DDO has become stable; stable in the sense that moderation no longer tolerates the things that make DDO a vibrant place to be. Drama, conflict, disagreement, the presence of contrasting perspectives, tension, argument, and the like all, more than anything else, generate participation on this site. The reality is that DDO likes all of it, and while people complain about it"they don"t actually "mean" what they say. Drama brings life to this site, and everyone knows it. Even the people who bitch and moan about it the most get off on it; and if they didn"t, they wouldn"t create or participate in it or initiate it. But they still can and do complain" way too much.

Conflict is the first, and best source of a real challenge to one"s ideas, values, thoughts, perspectives, and convictions. You only know what you believe by knowing, after all, what you don"t believe in. You can only recognize what"s right in this world by being able to distinguish it from what"s wrong. Good is only definable against that which is bad if you are experienced enough with what is bad to be able to make the categorical distinction.

But now, anything that resembles tension prompts moderation. Disagreement is regarded as a personal attack and therefore an affront to another"s dignity. It"s DDO"s most progressive, left leaning members who are in that sense its weakest, because they are constitutionally intolerant of any view antithetical to theirs. Their first effort has always been to complain to moderation, who largely did nothing because nothing should have been done. When that failed, they made a great show of how outraged they were, all the while ignoring the substance of what their opponent"s said. That show"s been, I think, the cause of the change in Airmax"s way of thinking.

I am the "common denominator" to some of the most contentious discussions for the simple reason that I"m willing to have them" whereas almost no one else is. Perhaps that says something of me; but perhaps more realistically it says something more substantial of how DDO has changed.

Years ago, more mature (though not necessarily older) members would have engaged with perspectives antithetical to theirs; they did that, and at the end of the day they could agree that people who disagreed with them are fine people, and everybody could be friends. But that"s not really the case now. There are now too many members who, if they disagree with you, make it personal in a way that is toxic to any exchange of contrasting ideas, much less a vigorous one.

Many of you will disagree with this, of course. You will disagree with it because it has not happened to you, or because you disagree with my taking issue with the "after school social club" model. Many (though not all) of you are high school and college students who are more coddled than any generation that has ever existed. You need to be praised constantly; you resent anyone who tells you anything other than that you"re the best thing since sliced bread. You resent anyone who does anything that has the effect of making anyone else feel bad, regardless of the circumstances. You value feelings of others more than what is right. You do not know what "rightness" is. And, more than anything else, you will not understand why I want what I want for DDO because it is so emphatically opposed to what you want.

When you ask yourselves what kind of a world you want to live in, your answer is identical to what you want in DDO: the absence of conflict, everyone to feel good all the time no matter what, nothing more than superficial or trivial disagreement over inconsequential things, in an environment where you are either constantly praised for doing things you should be doing anyway, or at least not occasioned to justify why you believe what you believe.

You want unity, cohesion, and unconditional acceptance of anything you think, because you think it; anything you do, because you do it; anything you believe, because you believe it; anything you want, because you want it. You want to silence anyone who disagrees with you, or who challenges anything you think, or who does anything that impedes your ideal of what this site should be, because of the inconsistency. You don"t mean any harm, though. You just want people to get along; but you don"t understand what that means, as you define "getting along" (i.e. the absence of conflict). But, that is not who I am, and I am the minority. I think all of that is infantilizing, and that infantilization is offensive.

Concluding Remarks

I understand why people leave, often unnoticed. DDO doesn"t offer them what they"re looking for; maybe it"s because they changed, or maybe it"s because DDO changed, but there"s something missing in their lives that DDO doesn"t fill. That"s where I"m at, and in some ways I"m sorry it"s come to this, but in other ways I"m not. I spend too much time here. All of these things under dutiful consideration, I am a relic of what the site once was. There was a time when there was space on DDO for someone like me, but that space doesn"t exist anymore.

On balance, I wish most of the people on DDO the best, but there are enough people on here that make this place toxic that I cannot remain. There is too much sensitivity, and too little meaningful debate; too much fragility, and too little intellectual engagement; too much moderation, and too little freedom. I know most of you don"t relate to that, because you never wanted what I did. But what I want from DDO, the site can no longer give me.

Goodbye ;)
-yyw
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:24:49 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
tl;dr I'm deactivating my account in 1-2 weeks; other things remain that I need to clear up, and I'll wait until those things are cleared up before I go. But I'm not interested in after school day care. I miss the pool hall or Irish Bar this place used to be.
Tsar of DDO
mc9
Posts: 1,035
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:33:16 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:24:49 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr I'm deactivating my account in 1-2 weeks; other things remain that I need to clear up, and I'll wait until those things are cleared up before I go. But I'm not interested in after school day care. I miss the pool hall or Irish Bar this place used to be.

Nooooooo!!! https://www.khanacademy.org...
You can even make your own debate website
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:36:34 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:33:16 PM, mc9 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:24:49 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr I'm deactivating my account in 1-2 weeks; other things remain that I need to clear up, and I'll wait until those things are cleared up before I go. But I'm not interested in after school day care. I miss the pool hall or Irish Bar this place used to be.

Nooooooo!!! https://www.khanacademy.org...
You can even make your own debate website

I don't really have the time to learn how to do that... and plus, even if I did invest the time to make that happen, really... to what end would it be?

There are other places on the internet that have excellent forum communities, with real people, and a different userbase. Better places than I could create, that already exist. I just don't see the need.
Tsar of DDO
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:50:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:36:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:33:16 PM, mc9 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:24:49 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr I'm deactivating my account in 1-2 weeks; other things remain that I need to clear up, and I'll wait until those things are cleared up before I go. But I'm not interested in after school day care. I miss the pool hall or Irish Bar this place used to be.

Nooooooo!!! https://www.khanacademy.org...
You can even make your own debate website

I don't really have the time to learn how to do that... and plus, even if I did invest the time to make that happen, really... to what end would it be?

There are other places on the internet that have excellent forum communities, with real people, and a different userbase. Better places than I could create, that already exist. I just don't see the need.

Out of pure curiousity, which forums aside from this do you think have great communities? I've never been able to get the feel for any other forum.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:55:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:50:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:36:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:33:16 PM, mc9 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:24:49 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr I'm deactivating my account in 1-2 weeks; other things remain that I need to clear up, and I'll wait until those things are cleared up before I go. But I'm not interested in after school day care. I miss the pool hall or Irish Bar this place used to be.

Nooooooo!!! https://www.khanacademy.org...
You can even make your own debate website

I don't really have the time to learn how to do that... and plus, even if I did invest the time to make that happen, really... to what end would it be?

There are other places on the internet that have excellent forum communities, with real people, and a different userbase. Better places than I could create, that already exist. I just don't see the need.

Out of pure curiousity, which forums aside from this do you think have great communities? I've never been able to get the feel for any other forum.

We can talk about that via email or PM. I don't want to mention that here, frankly, because there are a lot of people on DDO I don't want to follow me.
Tsar of DDO
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:57:07 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:55:57 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:50:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:36:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:33:16 PM, mc9 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:24:49 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr I'm deactivating my account in 1-2 weeks; other things remain that I need to clear up, and I'll wait until those things are cleared up before I go. But I'm not interested in after school day care. I miss the pool hall or Irish Bar this place used to be.

Nooooooo!!! https://www.khanacademy.org...
You can even make your own debate website

I don't really have the time to learn how to do that... and plus, even if I did invest the time to make that happen, really... to what end would it be?

There are other places on the internet that have excellent forum communities, with real people, and a different userbase. Better places than I could create, that already exist. I just don't see the need.

Out of pure curiousity, which forums aside from this do you think have great communities? I've never been able to get the feel for any other forum.

We can talk about that via email or PM. I don't want to mention that here, frankly, because there are a lot of people on DDO I don't want to follow me.

PM me.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:57:55 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:56:06 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
You'll have to let me know if you find a new place to settle in. I'm always looking for new forums to add to my collection.

PM me your email at some point. I'll let you know where I've found. I doubt I'll ever be active there like I was here, but there are two other places that are profoundly better than this place.

Their mods are not babysitters. Their members have college educations and graduate degrees. Their user-base is ideologically diverse. There are none who engage in social-justice-warrior type advocacy.

It took a while, but there are two sites. They look very promising.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:58:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 5:57:07 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:55:57 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:50:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:36:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:33:16 PM, mc9 wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:24:49 PM, YYW wrote:
tl;dr I'm deactivating my account in 1-2 weeks; other things remain that I need to clear up, and I'll wait until those things are cleared up before I go. But I'm not interested in after school day care. I miss the pool hall or Irish Bar this place used to be.

Nooooooo!!! https://www.khanacademy.org...
You can even make your own debate website

I don't really have the time to learn how to do that... and plus, even if I did invest the time to make that happen, really... to what end would it be?

There are other places on the internet that have excellent forum communities, with real people, and a different userbase. Better places than I could create, that already exist. I just don't see the need.

Out of pure curiousity, which forums aside from this do you think have great communities? I've never been able to get the feel for any other forum.

We can talk about that via email or PM. I don't want to mention that here, frankly, because there are a lot of people on DDO I don't want to follow me.

PM me.

I will, later...
Tsar of DDO
SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,086
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 5:59:30 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
thett hurry post the video
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:01:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I was discussing with BOT last night sort of the epiphany I had while banned, which, frankly, was one of the best weeks I've had in a while. Even though I resented it happening, the end result was that it enabled me to think about this as I should have been thinking about my membership here for a long time.

I asked myself, over and over again: "Why am I here?"

I couldn't come up with a good answer; an answer that was enough to get me to stay.

I might periodically drop into the hangouts, and I'll still stay in touch with some people... but this place isn't for me anymore, and that has been clear--or should have been clear--for months now.
Tsar of DDO
SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,086
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:02:42 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:01:32 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:59:30 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
thett hurry post the video

Video?
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:05:20 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:02:42 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:01:32 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:59:30 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
thett hurry post the video

Video?



LOL
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:05:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:02:42 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:01:32 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 5:59:30 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
thett hurry post the video

Video?



lol

But really... I'm done. I can't do this anymore, and I won't, because I know what would happen if I did.
Tsar of DDO
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:17:32 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:01:13 PM, YYW wrote:
I was discussing with BOT last night sort of the epiphany I had while banned, which, frankly, was one of the best weeks I've had in a while. Even though I resented it happening, the end result was that it enabled me to think about this as I should have been thinking about my membership here for a long time.

I asked myself, over and over again: "Why am I here?"

I couldn't come up with a good answer; an answer that was enough to get me to stay.

I might periodically drop into the hangouts, and I'll still stay in touch with some people... but this place isn't for me anymore, and that has been clear--or should have been clear--for months now.

So what if your first week off the site is a bad one?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:21:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:17:32 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:01:13 PM, YYW wrote:
I was discussing with BOT last night sort of the epiphany I had while banned, which, frankly, was one of the best weeks I've had in a while. Even though I resented it happening, the end result was that it enabled me to think about this as I should have been thinking about my membership here for a long time.

I asked myself, over and over again: "Why am I here?"

I couldn't come up with a good answer; an answer that was enough to get me to stay.

I might periodically drop into the hangouts, and I'll still stay in touch with some people... but this place isn't for me anymore, and that has been clear--or should have been clear--for months now.

So what if your first week off the site is a bad one?

What do you mean?
Tsar of DDO
Romaniii
Posts: 421
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:21:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
This is very saddening :(

I do generally agree with what you're saying about the downhill direction of the site, and I fully sympathize with your reasons for leaving. Not sure that it can all be pinned on Whiteflame, but yes -- our membership has changed, and the site is no longer what it was.

It sucks, and your departure is going to exacerbate that suckiness.

Please do drop into hangouts every once a while... that would be really sad if we never got to hear from you again.

Goodbye, YYW.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:23:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:21:14 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:17:32 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:01:13 PM, YYW wrote:
I was discussing with BOT last night sort of the epiphany I had while banned, which, frankly, was one of the best weeks I've had in a while. Even though I resented it happening, the end result was that it enabled me to think about this as I should have been thinking about my membership here for a long time.

I asked myself, over and over again: "Why am I here?"

I couldn't come up with a good answer; an answer that was enough to get me to stay.

I might periodically drop into the hangouts, and I'll still stay in touch with some people... but this place isn't for me anymore, and that has been clear--or should have been clear--for months now.

So what if your first week off the site is a bad one?

What do you mean?

I mean...you seem to be basing your happiness off site on a limited experience. Who is to say you will have such consistently good weeks? What if your other internet ventures don't turn out great in the long run?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:32:28 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:23:06 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:21:14 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:17:32 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:01:13 PM, YYW wrote:
I was discussing with BOT last night sort of the epiphany I had while banned, which, frankly, was one of the best weeks I've had in a while. Even though I resented it happening, the end result was that it enabled me to think about this as I should have been thinking about my membership here for a long time.

I asked myself, over and over again: "Why am I here?"

I couldn't come up with a good answer; an answer that was enough to get me to stay.

I might periodically drop into the hangouts, and I'll still stay in touch with some people... but this place isn't for me anymore, and that has been clear--or should have been clear--for months now.

So what if your first week off the site is a bad one?

What do you mean?

I mean...you seem to be basing your happiness off site on a limited experience. Who is to say you will have such consistently good weeks? What if your other internet ventures don't turn out great in the long run?

I think the sort of critical question is "regardless of how my week was, would DDO have improved it or made it worse?"

There was time when DDO made it better.... but that time has come and gone. I don't think it's ever going to come back...

In a lot or respects, then, Airmax did me a great service by banning me for a week (even if his reason, which whiteflame contrived, for it was something I disagreed with). It made it a lot easier for me to walk away.

Really, I don't know that I could have ever walked away without that.

I think it's the best thing that's happened to me in a long time. Call it a gift in disguise.

And the fact is that Max is right. I've treated people in ways that are inconsistent with what others want, and feel ins appropriate; which is why whiteflame and about ten other people (we know who they are, again) wanted me banned.

The whole issue emerges with regard to what level of conflict is acceptable in a community like this. (I no longer say "ours" because I don't consider myself a part of it anymore. I'm more like a guy who is just getting ready to check out.)

Some people want one thing, I want something else. And that's fine... but it means this place isn't for me anymore.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:32:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:22:29 PM, Romaniii wrote:
Misc. Thoughts:

-- No shout-out for Romanii :(

-- I'm quite interested in these two new sites you speak of...

PM me your email
Tsar of DDO
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:37:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:32:28 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:23:06 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:21:14 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:17:32 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/19/2016 6:01:13 PM, YYW wrote:
I was discussing with BOT last night sort of the epiphany I had while banned, which, frankly, was one of the best weeks I've had in a while. Even though I resented it happening, the end result was that it enabled me to think about this as I should have been thinking about my membership here for a long time.

I asked myself, over and over again: "Why am I here?"

I couldn't come up with a good answer; an answer that was enough to get me to stay.

I might periodically drop into the hangouts, and I'll still stay in touch with some people... but this place isn't for me anymore, and that has been clear--or should have been clear--for months now.

So what if your first week off the site is a bad one?

What do you mean?

I mean...you seem to be basing your happiness off site on a limited experience. Who is to say you will have such consistently good weeks? What if your other internet ventures don't turn out great in the long run?

I think the sort of critical question is "regardless of how my week was, would DDO have improved it or made it worse?"

There was time when DDO made it better.... but that time has come and gone. I don't think it's ever going to come back...

In a lot or respects, then, Airmax did me a great service by banning me for a week (even if his reason, which whiteflame contrived, for it was something I disagreed with). It made it a lot easier for me to walk away.

Really, I don't know that I could have ever walked away without that.

I think it's the best thing that's happened to me in a long time. Call it a gift in disguise.

And the fact is that Max is right. I've treated people in ways that are inconsistent with what others want, and feel ins appropriate; which is why whiteflame and about ten other people (we know who they are, again) wanted me banned.

The whole issue emerges with regard to what level of conflict is acceptable in a community like this. (I no longer say "ours" because I don't consider myself a part of it anymore. I'm more like a guy who is just getting ready to check out.)

Some people want one thing, I want something else. And that's fine... but it means this place isn't for me anymore.

You were in Hangouts nearly every day for a long time, and I saw you join every day I did during your ban. The fact you talk to whoever joins a hangout tells me you don't have an inherent problem with the site as much as one mod, and a few members. At the end of the day, if Max has final say, this community is a lot more hospitable to you than you think.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:37:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:21:23 PM, Romaniii wrote:
This is very saddening :(

I do generally agree with what you're saying about the downhill direction of the site, and I fully sympathize with your reasons for leaving. Not sure that it can all be pinned on Whiteflame, but yes -- our membership has changed, and the site is no longer what it was.

When I had a first draft of this, I cited to about eight other members, but I took that out because I didn't want this to become a bitch fest... as it invariably would have.Though to be sure, whiteflame is individually and in his capacity as a moderator, a substantial problem and his influence on airmax has been to this site's detriment. But Whiteflame is not the only problem.

Whiteflame is just the symptom an a part; though, he's not the core of the problem. The core of the problem is that the member base wants something fundamentally different than what I want, and that's fine.

People have a right to have other views; but, there comes a point where those other views, if implemented, become hostile to what I want to a degree that I can no longer justify myself remaining.

It sucks, and your departure is going to exacerbate that suckiness.

Ehh... the "suckiness" has been here for a while. The only difference is that I won't be around to counterbalance it. Maybe others will; you certainly have, lately. I like to see that, but to really get at the heart of the issues is to give that group of people something to whine about to an extent that I would have eventually been permabanned.

Please do drop into hangouts every once a while... that would be really sad if we never got to hear from you again.

Goodbye, YYW.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2016 6:39:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/19/2016 6:37:56 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

You were in Hangouts nearly every day for a long time, and I saw you join every day I did during your ban. The fact you talk to whoever joins a hangout tells me you don't have an inherent problem with the site as much as one mod, and a few members. At the end of the day, if Max has final say, this community is a lot more hospitable to you than you think.

I had a purpose in joining; needed to have a talk with Max, and I knew he'd join at some point. We had a good talk. I promised him I'd make a concerted effort to be nicer to people. So I am, by leaving.
Tsar of DDO