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Pick Your Privilege

lamerde
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4/10/2016 8:31:38 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
It's tiiiiime to plaaaayyyy Oppression Olympics!

The rules of the game are as follows:

1. Choose 3 privileges on the following wheel: http://tinyurl.com...
2. The rest of us have to decide, if we could only have 2 of those privileges, which 2 would we pick.
3. For funsies, explain why.

To make class more fair (wouldn't everyone love to be a Vanderbilt?), class privilege would mean solidly middle-class, like the families on Modern Family.

First round: Race, gender, and class. Which 2 privileges would you pick if you could only have 2 but not the third?

e.g., if you pick race and class, you would be a middle class white woman.
Why I ignore YYW:
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Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 8:34:23 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:31:38 PM, lamerde wrote:
It's tiiiiime to plaaaayyyy Oppression Olympics!

The rules of the game are as follows:

1. Choose 3 privileges on the following wheel: http://tinyurl.com...
2. The rest of us have to decide, if we could only have 2 of those privileges, which 2 would we pick.
3. For funsies, explain why.

To make class more fair (wouldn't everyone love to be a Vanderbilt?), class privilege would mean solidly middle-class, like the families on Modern Family.

First round: Race, gender, and class. Which 2 privileges would you pick if you could only have 2 but not the third?

e.g., if you pick race and class, you would be a middle class white woman.

Okay, I picked gender and class.

There are more than three though so I'm not sure why we are limiting ourselves to just three?
lamerde
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4/10/2016 8:40:57 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:34:23 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Okay, I picked gender and class.

There are more than three though so I'm not sure why we are limiting ourselves to just three?

I dunno, to make it more of a game, I thought it would be interesting to see which two people pick out of specific combinations... rather than which two people pick over the entire wheel (then the same person could post more than once).

I guess it doesn't really matter lol.

When I asked Maikuru about this, I picked gender and class also, though he did make a pretty strong case for race and class.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 8:41:16 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Oh! I misread the question. I have to pick three and then the rest of us decide which two we'd take if we could only take two of those three? That would be fun!

Sure. Gender and class. I just can't relate to being a woman and I'm pretty happy with being male so that's more fundamental to my identity than things like race.

Class is important because being poor or homeless sucks. Not only is it a difficult life, your social interactions are all constrained by your poorness. You don't meet anyone who is the best or brightest in what they do. You only interact with other poor or homeless people or the social service workers or the trailer next door.

Race is the one I would care about the least. I'm pretty happy being the race I am and if I could instantly change it to white to get all the privileges white people get, I wouldn't.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 8:42:18 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:40:57 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/10/2016 8:34:23 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Okay, I picked gender and class.

There are more than three though so I'm not sure why we are limiting ourselves to just three?

I dunno, to make it more of a game, I thought it would be interesting to see which two people pick out of specific combinations... rather than which two people pick over the entire wheel (then the same person could post more than once).

I guess it doesn't really matter lol.

When I asked Maikuru about this, I picked gender and class also, though he did make a pretty strong case for race and class.

Yeah, never mind, I misread your post. See my previous post.

I'm curious what Maikuru's case was.
lamerde
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4/10/2016 8:47:45 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:41:16 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Oh! I misread the question. I have to pick three and then the rest of us decide which two we'd take if we could only take two of those three? That would be fun!

Haha yah.

Sure. Gender and class. I just can't relate to being a woman and I'm pretty happy with being male so that's more fundamental to my identity than things like race.

Class is important because being poor or homeless sucks. Not only is it a difficult life, your social interactions are all constrained by your poorness. You don't meet anyone who is the best or brightest in what they do. You only interact with other poor or homeless people or the social service workers or the trailer next door.

I feel like class is probably the most important one... though I know it's debatable and I don't have a hard stance on it.

Race is the one I would care about the least. I'm pretty happy being the race I am and if I could instantly change it to white to get all the privileges white people get, I wouldn't.

That's interesting... I wouldn't change my race because I also like it, but the social privileges that come with being white are enticing.

I don't want to misrepresent what Maikuru said so I'll let him explain... but in my personal view, white middle class women are the most protected group on the planet. At this point, I just don't think sexism alone is as big of an issue as other things... it's the intersectional experience of sexism that matters in my opinion, so a white middle class woman kind of has it made.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 8:54:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:47:45 PM, lamerde wrote:
That's interesting... I wouldn't change my race because I also like it, but the social privileges that come with being white are enticing.

Like what? In some fields like politics, I assume being white gives you a leg up. But for the average person?

I don't want to misrepresent what Maikuru said so I'll let him explain... but in my personal view, white middle class women are the most protected group on the planet. At this point, I just don't think sexism alone is as big of an issue as other things... it's the intersectional experience of sexism that matters in my opinion, so a white middle class woman kind of has it made.

In what way are white middle class women more protected than white middle-class men?

Can you elaborate on that "intersectional experience of sexism?" I have a really vague idea what you mean but I'm not sure I got it right.
Skepsikyma
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4/10/2016 9:03:28 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:31:38 PM, lamerde wrote:
It's tiiiiime to plaaaayyyy Oppression Olympics!

The rules of the game are as follows:

1. Choose 3 privileges on the following wheel: http://tinyurl.com...
2. The rest of us have to decide, if we could only have 2 of those privileges, which 2 would we pick.
3. For funsies, explain why.

To make class more fair (wouldn't everyone love to be a Vanderbilt?), class privilege would mean solidly middle-class, like the families on Modern Family.

First round: Race, gender, and class. Which 2 privileges would you pick if you could only have 2 but not the third?

e.g., if you pick race and class, you would be a middle class white woman.

Race and class. In a second. Especially since gender privilege doesn't even really apply to black and, to a lesser degree, latino, men.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Hoppi
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4/10/2016 9:03:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
The only two I would ever pick would be able-bodied and literate. The rest, if I was in the "bad" category, I would never choose away from it. Even attractive, because I'm horrified at the idea of changing my physical appearance (or race or gender or ancestry) to be more socially acceptable. That's probably ableist to say.

Money is really important, but I think class isn't the same as wealth, so not even that.
lamerde
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4/10/2016 9:10:55 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:03:28 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Race and class. In a second. Especially since gender privilege doesn't even really apply to black and, to a lesser degree, latino, men.

lol I wonder if your reasoning is the same as Maikuru's. It makes a lot of sense, though I'm curious what middle class white women think.

The second part of your sentence... that's really interesting. Maybe it's more of a relational thing... because in relation to black women/Latina women, I would say black and Latino men certainly have gender privilege. I could see it possibly being different from an "outsider" perspective.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 9:12:56 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
By the way, here are three I'd say are pretty difficult:

1. Appearance (attractive or unattractive)
2. Ableism (able-bodies or disabled - could include anything; wheelchair, hard-of-hearing, lost limbs, etc)
3. Sexual Orientation

I have a hard time figuring this one out. I'd probably pick being able-bodied because being disabled can have a huge negative impact on your life that needs a lot of willpower to negate.

Being heterosexual defines me fairly fundamentally so I'd have to go with that.

I'd probably have to ditch appearance.
Skepsikyma
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4/10/2016 9:20:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:10:55 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/10/2016 9:03:28 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Race and class. In a second. Especially since gender privilege doesn't even really apply to black and, to a lesser degree, latino, men.

lol I wonder if your reasoning is the same as Maikuru's. It makes a lot of sense, though I'm curious what middle class white women think.

The second part of your sentence... that's really interesting. Maybe it's more of a relational thing... because in relation to black women/Latina women, I would say black and Latino men certainly have gender privilege. I could see it possibly being different from an "outsider" perspective.

Yeah, that's definitely possible. Among white society, black men are seen as uncivilized, brutish, or dangerous in a way that black women almost never are. This especially applies to lower class black men, as the only real way to escape that prejudice is to dress, speak, and act like an upper-class white man. It even applies to black male children, as the case of Tamir Rice demonstrates. When it comes to employment, the stereotype is that black women will be professional and hardworking. The opposite usually applies to black men, unless they dress better and comport themselves in a more genteel manner than would ever be expected of white men. When it comes to interacting with white society, I would rather be a black woman any day, though I can't speak to what that's like within the black community.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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4/10/2016 9:23:23 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:12:56 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
By the way, here are three I'd say are pretty difficult:

1. Appearance (attractive or unattractive)
2. Ableism (able-bodies or disabled - could include anything; wheelchair, hard-of-hearing, lost limbs, etc)
3. Sexual Orientation

I have a hard time figuring this one out. I'd probably pick being able-bodied because being disabled can have a huge negative impact on your life that needs a lot of willpower to negate.

Being heterosexual defines me fairly fundamentally so I'd have to go with that.

I'd probably have to ditch appearance.

Being a moderately attractive, able-bodied gay person is pretty awesome. I actually wouldn't ditch being gay if I were given the option, but that's probably a minority position.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Hoppi
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4/10/2016 9:24:22 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:31:38 PM, lamerde wrote:
It's tiiiiime to plaaaayyyy Oppression Olympics!

The rules of the game are as follows:

1. Choose 3 privileges on the following wheel: http://tinyurl.com...
2. The rest of us have to decide, if we could only have 2 of those privileges, which 2 would we pick.
3. For funsies, explain why.

To make class more fair (wouldn't everyone love to be a Vanderbilt?), class privilege would mean solidly middle-class, like the families on Modern Family.

First round: Race, gender, and class. Which 2 privileges would you pick if you could only have 2 but not the third?

e.g., if you pick race and class, you would be a middle class white woman.

sorry misread this the first time. Definitely class would be one I guess. It's really hard to choose between the other two. Changing race would be the bigger change because it would mean changing your whole family.
lamerde
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4/10/2016 9:24:24 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 8:54:11 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Like what? In some fields like politics, I assume being white gives you a leg up. But for the average person?

In general, everyday life. Many of the items on the list ring true for me: https://www.deanza.edu...

It's been a while since I read it, so maybe it's already mentioned there, but particularly the privilege of seeing yourself reflected in the media, and the privilege of knowing things are made for you, from beauty products to just about everything. I think simply being the "norm" or standard by which everything is held is a huge privilege.

In what way are white middle class women more protected than white middle-class men?

In our society, for the most part men protect women (women protect men in some ways too...). There's the "women and children" trope. Chivalry is all about the protection of white womanhood. Wars have been fought over the protection of white womanhood. Not too long ago, a white woman accusing a black man of rape was a death sentence. Protecting white female virtue has been a thing for centuries.

For example: http://www.debate.org...

White women have always been held up as in need of protection for racial purity... even while white male slave masters were raping black women. It's always the white woman in need of protection from other races.

Can you elaborate on that "intersectional experience of sexism?" I have a really vague idea what you mean but I'm not sure I got it right.

Intersectionality is the experience of multiple identities and those multiple identities make the experience different. So it's not enough to say that being a black woman is like adding the experience of being a white woman and black man together - by virtue of being black and a woman, the experience of both race and gender are not added, but a whole new experience.

So what I'm saying is that, I don't think sexism alone is that big of an issue... so being woman who in everyone other respect is on the dominant side of the wheel (white, middle class, anglo-saxon, able-bodied, cisgendered, heterosexual, etc), is not that hard imo... (again, we're playing oppression olympics here lol). But being a racialized woman, and/or a transwoman, and/or a poor woman, and/or a disabled woman, etc. etc... the experience of being a woman AND one or more other things on that wheel is what makes sexism difficult.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
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4/10/2016 9:25:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:23:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Being a moderately attractive, able-bodied gay person is pretty awesome. I actually wouldn't ditch being gay if I were given the option, but that's probably a minority position.

What's interesting is that people seem to have a pretty strong sense of their own identity. I'd say I wouldn't want to be white if I could and you are essentially saying you wouldn't be straight if you could. But we're both arguing that whatever we are is what's preferable.

It would be interesting to see what people would want to change about themselves.
lamerde
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4/10/2016 9:28:45 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:12:56 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
By the way, here are three I'd say are pretty difficult:

1. Appearance (attractive or unattractive)
2. Ableism (able-bodies or disabled - could include anything; wheelchair, hard-of-hearing, lost limbs, etc)
3. Sexual Orientation

I have a hard time figuring this one out. I'd probably pick being able-bodied because being disabled can have a huge negative impact on your life that needs a lot of willpower to negate.

Being heterosexual defines me fairly fundamentally so I'd have to go with that.

I'd probably have to ditch appearance.

I would pick appearance and able-bodied. It's easy for me, since I live in a country where being something other than heterosexual is okay. But I think being attractive is a huge privilege, so I'd definitely pick that. And being gay is a non-issue to me, though that could be my straight-passing privilege talking.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
lamerde
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4/10/2016 9:34:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:20:27 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Yeah, that's definitely possible. Among white society, black men are seen as uncivilized, brutish, or dangerous in a way that black women almost never are. This especially applies to lower class black men, as the only real way to escape that prejudice is to dress, speak, and act like an upper-class white man. It even applies to black male children, as the case of Tamir Rice demonstrates.

That's true.

When it comes to employment, the stereotype is that black women will be professional and hardworking. The opposite usually applies to black men, unless they dress better and comport themselves in a more genteel manner than would ever be expected of white men. When it comes to interacting with white society, I would rather be a black woman any day, though I can't speak to what that's like within the black community.

That is really interesting to me... when I think of "intersectionality" and the intersection of race and gender, I rarely think of the black man intersection. Part of that is the fact that the assumption is typically man = person, and the negative stereotypes about black people are just that - about black people. It's only recently I've begun think about the gendered nature of blackness and black stereotypes, even though the assumption really tends to be all black people are men.

I think you're right that in a lot of ways, being a black woman is somewhat easier in white society.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 9:34:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:24:24 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/10/2016 8:54:11 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Like what? In some fields like politics, I assume being white gives you a leg up. But for the average person?

In general, everyday life. Many of the items on the list ring true for me: https://www.deanza.edu...

It's been a while since I read it, so maybe it's already mentioned there, but particularly the privilege of seeing yourself reflected in the media, and the privilege of knowing things are made for you, from beauty products to just about everything. I think simply being the "norm" or standard by which everything is held is a huge privilege.

Ah, yes. This is huge. Personally, I wouldn't say I've experienced any significant racism but watching TV and finding literally every single show having a white lead and supporting cast of other ethnicities is somewhat exasperating. I'm not sure how seriously we should take hollywood though compared to real life issues.

I need to rush out but I want to say more about the rest of your post in a few hours. This seems really interesting. I'm glad you started this thread.
Skepsikyma
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4/10/2016 9:58:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:34:41 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/10/2016 9:20:27 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Yeah, that's definitely possible. Among white society, black men are seen as uncivilized, brutish, or dangerous in a way that black women almost never are. This especially applies to lower class black men, as the only real way to escape that prejudice is to dress, speak, and act like an upper-class white man. It even applies to black male children, as the case of Tamir Rice demonstrates.

That's true.

When it comes to employment, the stereotype is that black women will be professional and hardworking. The opposite usually applies to black men, unless they dress better and comport themselves in a more genteel manner than would ever be expected of white men. When it comes to interacting with white society, I would rather be a black woman any day, though I can't speak to what that's like within the black community.

That is really interesting to me... when I think of "intersectionality" and the intersection of race and gender, I rarely think of the black man intersection. Part of that is the fact that the assumption is typically man = person, and the negative stereotypes about black people are just that - about black people. It's only recently I've begun think about the gendered nature of blackness and black stereotypes, even though the assumption really tends to be all black people are men.

I think you're right that in a lot of ways, being a black woman is somewhat easier in white society.

Yeah. I think I read somewhere that if you look at American white literature in the 19th century and earlier, black chacracters are never referred to as 'black man' or 'black woman' unless it's crucial to distinguish gender. Essentially, black people in general are stripped of personhood and made peripheral to white stories. The few exceptions, where the personhood of the black man or woman bleed through, (Twain and Conrad are good examples) are extraordinary and really make you think about how black people are perceived in white society. This is why I despise attempts to ban or sideline such writers; it's important to understand dynamics like that on a visceral level.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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4/10/2016 10:00:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:24:24 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/10/2016 8:54:11 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Like what? In some fields like politics, I assume being white gives you a leg up. But for the average person?

In general, everyday life. Many of the items on the list ring true for me: https://www.deanza.edu...

It's been a while since I read it, so maybe it's already mentioned there, but particularly the privilege of seeing yourself reflected in the media, and the privilege of knowing things are made for you, from beauty products to just about everything. I think simply being the "norm" or standard by which everything is held is a huge privilege.

In what way are white middle class women more protected than white middle-class men?

In our society, for the most part men protect women (women protect men in some ways too...). There's the "women and children" trope. Chivalry is all about the protection of white womanhood. Wars have been fought over the protection of white womanhood. Not too long ago, a white woman accusing a black man of rape was a death sentence. Protecting white female virtue has been a thing for centuries.

For example: http://www.debate.org...

White women have always been held up as in need of protection for racial purity... even while white male slave masters were raping black women. It's always the white woman in need of protection from other races.

Can you elaborate on that "intersectional experience of sexism?" I have a really vague idea what you mean but I'm not sure I got it right.

Intersectionality is the experience of multiple identities and those multiple identities make the experience different. So it's not enough to say that being a black woman is like adding the experience of being a white woman and black man together - by virtue of being black and a woman, the experience of both race and gender are not added, but a whole new experience.

So what I'm saying is that, I don't think sexism alone is that big of an issue... so being woman who in everyone other respect is on the dominant side of the wheel (white, middle class, anglo-saxon, able-bodied, cisgendered, heterosexual, etc), is not that hard imo... (again, we're playing oppression olympics here lol). But being a racialized woman, and/or a transwoman, and/or a poor woman, and/or a disabled woman, etc. etc... the experience of being a woman AND one or more other things on that wheel is what makes sexism difficult.

I agree with this. I think that the biggest thing fueling the resentment towards and rejection of privilege theory is the tendency of upper-class, white straight women to be utterly dismissive of any male suffering. The optics on that are just so horrible for any male who doesn't possess class privilege that they throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
lamerde
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4/10/2016 10:07:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 10:00:43 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

I agree with this. I think that the biggest thing fueling the resentment towards and rejection of privilege theory is the tendency of upper-class, white straight women to be utterly dismissive of any male suffering. The optics on that are just so horrible for any male who doesn't possess class privilege that they throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I think that's the main thing people don't understand about privilege - that it's intersecting. I don't know anyone who claims being male (or being white, for that matter) is the end-all-be-all (though I'm sure you'll find people who think that somewhere lol)... but that's the way it's perceived.
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4/10/2016 10:24:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
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4/10/2016 11:01:38 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:24:24 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/10/2016 8:54:11 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Like what? In some fields like politics, I assume being white gives you a leg up. But for the average person?

In general, everyday life. Many of the items on the list ring true for me: https://www.deanza.edu...

It's been a while since I read it, so maybe it's already mentioned there, but particularly the privilege of seeing yourself reflected in the media, and the privilege of knowing things are made for you, from beauty products to just about everything. I think simply being the "norm" or standard by which everything is held is a huge privilege.

Most don't ring true for me (except media representations and a few others) but that could just be because of different locations. Whites are not a majority in California so the notion that white = normal is not as prevalent here. But I agree that in states which have an overwhelming white majority, it's very likely that white is considering normal and any other race is worthy of mention.

In what way are white middle class women more protected than white middle-class men?

In our society, for the most part men protect women (women protect men in some ways too...). There's the "women and children" trope. Chivalry is all about the protection of white womanhood. Wars have been fought over the protection of white womanhood. Not too long ago, a white woman accusing a black man of rape was a death sentence. Protecting white female virtue has been a thing for centuries.

For example: http://www.debate.org...

That post was terrible and belongs in the 1800s. But even in his post, you see things beyond race that matter - like attractiveness. Would you say unattractive/obese/ugly middle-class white women have that same privilege that you referred to?

Intersectionality is the experience of multiple identities and those multiple identities make the experience different. So it's not enough to say that being a black woman is like adding the experience of being a white woman and black man together - by virtue of being black and a woman, the experience of both race and gender are not added, but a whole new experience.

So what I'm saying is that, I don't think sexism alone is that big of an issue... so being woman who in everyone other respect is on the dominant side of the wheel (white, middle class, anglo-saxon, able-bodied, cisgendered, heterosexual, etc), is not that hard imo... (again, we're playing oppression olympics here lol). But being a racialized woman, and/or a transwoman, and/or a poor woman, and/or a disabled woman, etc. etc... the experience of being a woman AND one or more other things on that wheel is what makes sexism difficult.

I could see where you are coming from. Are you saying it's different mostly from the type of stereotypes they have to put up with? For instance, how is being a disabled woman different from being a disabled man? Also, I've read some studies (I don't know how accurate) that show that gay or bisexual men have it worse than lesbian or bisexual women because the latter are more easily accepted.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 11:07:29 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:20:27 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, that's definitely possible. Among white society, black men are seen as uncivilized, brutish, or dangerous in a way that black women almost never are. This especially applies to lower class black men, as the only real way to escape that prejudice is to dress, speak, and act like an upper-class white man. It even applies to black male children, as the case of Tamir Rice demonstrates. When it comes to employment, the stereotype is that black women will be professional and hardworking. The opposite usually applies to black men, unless they dress better and comport themselves in a more genteel manner than would ever be expected of white men. When it comes to interacting with white society, I would rather be a black woman any day, though I can't speak to what that's like within the black community.

What does it mean to dress like an "upper class white man?" Wear a suit and tie?

The assumption that only white men dress well is dangerous as it associates positive things with whiteness and anyone who engages in those positive things are claimed to be "acting white." Shouldn't it be perfectly okay for black men to dress professionally without saying that they are "selling out?" Or speak with a mainstream accent rather than localized one?

It's also not just a binary between black and white. There are several different ethnic groups in the United States and I find male/female privilege separate from racism in general.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 11:09:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 9:28:45 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/10/2016 9:12:56 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
By the way, here are three I'd say are pretty difficult:

1. Appearance (attractive or unattractive)
2. Ableism (able-bodies or disabled - could include anything; wheelchair, hard-of-hearing, lost limbs, etc)
3. Sexual Orientation

I have a hard time figuring this one out. I'd probably pick being able-bodied because being disabled can have a huge negative impact on your life that needs a lot of willpower to negate.

Being heterosexual defines me fairly fundamentally so I'd have to go with that.

I'd probably have to ditch appearance.

I would pick appearance and able-bodied. It's easy for me, since I live in a country where being something other than heterosexual is okay. But I think being attractive is a huge privilege, so I'd definitely pick that. And being gay is a non-issue to me, though that could be my straight-passing privilege talking.

Part of the reason I'd say appearance is desirable is to attract women. So, choosing appearance instead of heterosexuality is self-defeating for me, lol.
someloser
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4/10/2016 11:12:40 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Class, ethno-religion, and gender (i.e. upper class Jewish woman)
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Skepsikyma
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4/10/2016 11:33:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 11:07:29 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/10/2016 9:20:27 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yeah, that's definitely possible. Among white society, black men are seen as uncivilized, brutish, or dangerous in a way that black women almost never are. This especially applies to lower class black men, as the only real way to escape that prejudice is to dress, speak, and act like an upper-class white man. It even applies to black male children, as the case of Tamir Rice demonstrates. When it comes to employment, the stereotype is that black women will be professional and hardworking. The opposite usually applies to black men, unless they dress better and comport themselves in a more genteel manner than would ever be expected of white men. When it comes to interacting with white society, I would rather be a black woman any day, though I can't speak to what that's like within the black community.

What does it mean to dress like an "upper class white man?" Wear a suit and tie?

Yes. Those are white cultural hallmarks.

The assumption that only white men dress well is dangerous as it associates positive things with whiteness and anyone who engages in those positive things are claimed to be "acting white." Shouldn't it be perfectly okay for black men to dress professionally without saying that they are "selling out?" Or speak with a mainstream accent rather than localized one?

It should be okay, but it shouldn't be required. I know one woman who works in my agency, and loves to get outlandish manicures (by white professional standards). She's from northeast philly, and that's just part of the urban culture there among women of her age group. She also speaks with a regional accent. She's been passed over for promotions many times despite having the experience and skills to progress in management, and is rightfully angry because of it. She shouldn't be expected to dissociate from her upbringing and social group in order to succeed. Nobody should. And the problem with the 'dress well' assumption is that when the white guy takes off the suit and puts on a tee shirt and jeans, he's not seen as a threat. The black guy is.

It's also not just a binary between black and white. There are several different ethnic groups in the United States and I find male/female privilege separate from racism in general.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/10/2016 11:43:24 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 11:33:35 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yes. Those are white cultural hallmarks.

No, they are not. They are hallmarks of modern society. Sorry, but you don't get "ownership" of wearing a suit and tie and somhow tie it to race by suggesting that anyone who wears them is acting white.
Skepsikyma
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4/10/2016 11:49:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/10/2016 11:43:24 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/10/2016 11:33:35 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Yes. Those are white cultural hallmarks.

No, they are not. They are hallmarks of modern society. Sorry, but you don't get "ownership" of wearing a suit and tie and somhow tie it to race by suggesting that anyone who wears them is acting white.

... They are definitely white. The whole idea of a collar tie dates back to European clothing (a cravat), and isn't found anywhere else. We don't 'own' wearing a suit and tie (cultural traditions can permeate just about anywhere), but the fact that it is both a white cultural hallmark and is seen as the only acceptably attire is revealing as it pertains to what, historically, largely white professional society sees as acceptable. It's also necessarily exclusionary, when people of lower classes can be seen as 'selling out' by adopting it, and, more importantly, because 'dressing up' can be prohibitively expensive for some people.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -