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Free will or destiny?

Heathen
Posts: 183
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2/20/2011 2:53:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Whats your opinion? Do you believe that we choose what to do or that everything is already chosen for us.?
"Once an object has been seen, it is impossible to put the mind back to the same condition it was in before it saw it." - Thomas Paine
tvellalott
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2/20/2011 2:56:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
We definately choose what we do.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 2:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Free will is an illusion created by out inability to comprehend the variable unaccounted for.

Live your life as if you have free will, and take accountability.. But realize that everything has been determined. You are part of a big reaction of events that you don't and can't understand.

Every single thing that happens in the universe has an effect on everything else.. Everything is connected. No matter how subtle.. The smallest pebble tumbling down the crag on the other side of of the galaxy could have somehow started a chain reaction that will lead to the Earth being wiped out by a solar flare.

Hey, you never know, man.

>.>

<.<
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
jmar8542
Posts: 380
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2/20/2011 11:16:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I believe it's unprovable until we master time travel.

There are three possible scenarios:
1. One goes back in time, attempts to change events, and succeeds (such as in The Butterfly Effect). This would prove that we do have free will, and that every decision we make will change the future. "There is no fate - no fate but what we make" - Terminator 2
2. One goes back....and fails. This would be the approach some sci-fi movies have gone with, and the third Harry Potter book/movie; everything is predestined, including the choice to time travel. The time traveller merely causes to happen what has originally happened before he/she had chosen to time travel. This would prove that all events are predestined ("God's Plan"), and the idea of free will is an illusion. Thinking "I could've done things differently" is useless because the path had already been planned.
3. A paradox is somehow caused and the fabric of the universe unravels, ending life as we know it. Not too sure on this one...maybe it's just sci-fi babble. Although I did see an episode of Invader Zim recently in which Zim wished to travel back in time to handicap his enemy (Dib) such that he is unable to battle Zim, and his robot partner (Gir) contemplates the action. He went something along the lines of "if you go back and stop him, he won't be your enemy now, and you won't need go back and stop him, so he won't have been stopped, which means he will be your enemy now, and you'll have to go back..." et cetera...and he proceeded to explode. :)
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 11:21:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 11:16:49 PM, jmar8542 wrote:
I believe it's unprovable until we master time travel.

There are three possible scenarios:
1. One goes back in time, attempts to change events, and succeeds (such as in The Butterfly Effect). This would prove that we do have free will, and that every decision we make will change the future. "There is no fate - no fate but what we make" - Terminator 2

This does not prove free will at all. All this does is prove that any little insignificant thing can have a huge impact on the outcome of future events. All this does is shine a light of glory onto the mysterious variable unaccounted for.

2. One goes back....and fails. This would be the approach some sci-fi movies have gone with, and the third Harry Potter book/movie; everything is predestined, including the choice to time travel. The time traveller merely causes to happen what has originally happened before he/she had chosen to time travel. This would prove that all events are predestined ("God's Plan"), and the idea of free will is an illusion. Thinking "I could've done things differently" is useless because the path had already been planned.

Nah, I think if anything, this would just create a mind-fvck scenario.

3. A paradox is somehow caused and the fabric of the universe unravels, ending life as we know it. Not too sure on this one...maybe it's just sci-fi babble. Although I did see an episode of Invader Zim recently in which Zim wished to travel back in time to handicap his enemy (Dib) such that he is unable to battle Zim, and his robot partner (Gir) contemplates the action. He went something along the lines of "if you go back and stop him, he won't be your enemy now, and you won't need go back and stop him, so he won't have been stopped, which means he will be your enemy now, and you'll have to go back..." et cetera...and he proceeded to explode. :)

Scary business, eh?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
jmar8542
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2/21/2011 12:27:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 11:21:23 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Scary business, eh?

Which is why I think humans should never attempt to time travel.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
xxdarkxx
Posts: 3,090
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2/21/2011 7:18:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Personally I see it that we are fed a false illusion of free will. All choices in life are effected by cause and effect. I.E. the repercussion of our actions. If someone is faced with the decision of say stealing $100,000 from and old dead lady (http://www.debate.org...) then they have to take the pro's and con's into account.
PRO
You have $100,000

CON
their is a good chance you will get caught
moral guilt from taking the money

So you do have the "free" choice in the matter of taking the money, however the "CON" points will effect your decision and in many situations could even cause you to make a different decision than you would have liked. In a world where their truly is free will than their would be no "CON's" to a decision, only the pro's. However since we live in a world where their are "CON's" we get a false sense of free will. We are able to make the decisions that we want, but they are greatly effected by outside variables.
Thaddeus
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2/21/2011 7:39:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
We can make a choice freely, howvever that choice could be predicted with enough information (Laplace's demon type thing). I don't see the two as contradictory.
Heathen
Posts: 183
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2/23/2011 11:11:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I personally beieve in destiny, no matter what happens, it was destined to happen.
"Once an object has been seen, it is impossible to put the mind back to the same condition it was in before it saw it." - Thomas Paine
Ogan
Posts: 407
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2/23/2011 6:00:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 2:53:22 AM, Heathen wrote:
Whats your opinion? Do you believe that we choose what to do or that everything is already chosen for us.?

Both.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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2/23/2011 6:39:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Free will, let's just say, is much more complicated than many people would make it out to be. Or maybe philosophers just ramble on incessantly :P
Ogan
Posts: 407
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2/25/2011 9:06:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/23/2011 11:11:48 AM, Heathen wrote:
I personally beieve in destiny, no matter what happens, it was destined to happen.

I have no freewill and destiny made me type these words without my permission - help!!!
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/25/2011 9:34:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 9:06:00 AM, Ogan wrote:
At 2/23/2011 11:11:48 AM, Heathen wrote:
I personally beieve in destiny, no matter what happens, it was destined to happen.

I have no freewill and destiny made me type these words without my permission - help!!!

Hah! Ogan made a funny! Nicely done, sir.
sal
Posts: 319
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2/25/2011 9:51:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 2:53:22 AM, Heathen wrote:
Whats your opinion? Do you believe that we choose what to do or that everything is already chosen for us.?

I definitely experience free will.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/25/2011 10:11:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 7:39:37 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
We can make a choice freely, howvever that choice could be predicted with enough information (Laplace's demon type thing). I don't see the two as contradictory.

It all depends on how you define "free." I personally see a contradiction.
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devinni01841
Posts: 1,405
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2/25/2011 11:04:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 3:29:06 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
We choose what we do, but our choices do not make us free.

This
There is nothing more bad-@ss than being yourself.

I solemnly swear I am up to no good.

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devinni01841
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2/25/2011 11:07:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 11:04:22 AM, devinni01841 wrote:
At 2/20/2011 3:29:06 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
We choose what we do, but our choices do not make us free.

This

hmm let me clarify... we can make our own choices, but other people's decisions affect us, too and that is out of our control....
There is nothing more bad-@ss than being yourself.

I solemnly swear I am up to no good.

Member of the Texas Army National Guard since 20111212

An Armed society is a polite society.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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2/25/2011 2:42:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 3:29:06 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
We choose what we do, but our choices do not make us free.

And your definition of Freedom is?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/25/2011 4:14:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Everything is determined by variables that are beyond our comprehension. Why we appear to have free will on shallow examination, really what we perceive as free will is a sort of self awareness. It is perception, nothing else.

The deeper you get into your own mind, the more you get in line with your own subconscious.. The more you realize that our free will is just an illusion.. An illusion caused by our inability to comprehend the reaction that leads us to do what we do.

We have perception, and that is really it.

Everything is determined. You can call it destiny, I suppose.

A better question to ask would be...
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Jarjar3000
Posts: 273
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2/25/2011 4:26:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Free Will
Ohh Lord How you love me, you change my heart and soul, renewing my mind into something I could never imagine, You make me strong when I am weak, you encourage me when I'm despaired, You stick by me when everyone deserts me, You are my Lord You are my God.

Charles: I'm not a Christian because I'm afraid of hell, I'm a Christian because I love Jesus.

Geolaureate: The Pope
He looks like a Sith lord, I don't trust him.

Charles0103: Just like my God, my faith won't change.
JustCallMeTarzan
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2/25/2011 4:57:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 2:53:22 AM, Heathen wrote:
Whats your opinion? Do you believe that we choose what to do or that everything is already chosen for us.?

Unless you have a very weak definition of "free will" there is no such thing. Our actions are governed by electrochemical processes. It doesn't matter that we may be unaware of the specific nature of the processes. We are not free to control them, thus no free will...

UNLESS you subscribe to agency free will, where the actor only need to believe the choice is really his. Then... whoop-de-do... you have "free will."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/25/2011 7:00:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 4:26:27 PM, Jarjar3000 wrote:
Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Free Will

Scripture is not evidence of free will or anything for that matter.

However, it is an external force that effects your mind, and is one of the variables that determines what it is you end up doing.

Just because people are not always easy to predict does not mean that they have free will.. It just means that it is impossible to take into account all the variables that effect them.

These thing happens on the spiritual level, or the psychological level(they are the same thing), so they are not easily observed.

The world effects our psychology.. Our bodies effect our psychology.. Our psychology effects our psychology.. There are so many variables that go into what a human being does.

Free will is an illusion, though subjectively it appears to be true. If you really examine yourself, you see that you are really a complex chain reaction of different cause and effect relations.

You might argue that by examining yourself, you have proven your free will.. But no, it was through the cause and effect of many factors that lead you to do such a thing. You don't have a choice, you are a slave to the law of the Cosmicomicon.

Free will is an illusion. A computer's actions are determined by both external stimuli(Human being), and the interaction of background processes and programs. A human beings actions are determined by external stimuli(The reality around us), and the interaction of our subconscious and conscious thought.

We are organic computers, that is about it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ogan
Posts: 407
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2/26/2011 7:02:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 4:14:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Everything is determined by variables that are beyond our comprehension. Why we appear to have free will on shallow examination, really what we perceive as free will is a sort of self awareness. It is perception, nothing else.

The deeper you get into your own mind, the more you get in line with your own subconscious.. The more you realize that our free will is just an illusion.. An illusion caused by our inability to comprehend the reaction that leads us to do what we do.

We have perception, and that is really it.

Everything is determined. You can call it destiny, I suppose.


Prove it.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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2/26/2011 7:03:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 4:57:54 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 2/20/2011 2:53:22 AM, Heathen wrote:
Whats your opinion? Do you believe that we choose what to do or that everything is already chosen for us.?

Unless you have a very weak definition of "free will" there is no such thing. Our actions are governed by electrochemical processes. It doesn't matter that we may be unaware of the specific nature of the processes. We are not free to control them, thus no free will...

UNLESS you subscribe to agency free will, where the actor only need to believe the choice is really his. Then... whoop-de-do... you have "free will."

Prove it.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/26/2011 11:30:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 7:02:24 AM, Ogan wrote:
At 2/25/2011 4:14:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Everything is determined by variables that are beyond our comprehension. Why we appear to have free will on shallow examination, really what we perceive as free will is a sort of self awareness. It is perception, nothing else.

The deeper you get into your own mind, the more you get in line with your own subconscious.. The more you realize that our free will is just an illusion.. An illusion caused by our inability to comprehend the reaction that leads us to do what we do.

We have perception, and that is really it.

Everything is determined. You can call it destiny, I suppose.


Prove it.

If you understand what I mean, and can ponder the depth of what it is I am saying, it is only human overestimation of it's own significance that thinks otherwise. Human beings are not super natural, they can not break the law of the Cosmicomicon.

This truth is self evident on deeper examination. Asking me to prove it is like asking me to describe the piece of music that is being played on stage with sign language to someone wearing ear muffs.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ogan
Posts: 407
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2/26/2011 2:04:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 11:30:33 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 2/26/2011 7:02:24 AM, Ogan wrote:
At 2/25/2011 4:14:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Everything is determined by variables that are beyond our comprehension. Why we appear to have free will on shallow examination, really what we perceive as free will is a sort of self awareness. It is perception, nothing else.

The deeper you get into your own mind, the more you get in line with your own subconscious.. The more you realize that our free will is just an illusion.. An illusion caused by our inability to comprehend the reaction that leads us to do what we do.

We have perception, and that is really it.

Everything is determined. You can call it destiny, I suppose.


Prove it.


If you understand what I mean, and can ponder the depth of what it is I am saying, it is only human overestimation of it's own significance that thinks otherwise. Human beings are not super natural, they can not break the law of the Cosmicomicon.

This truth is self evident on deeper examination. Asking me to prove it is like asking me to describe the piece of music that is being played on stage with sign language to someone wearing ear muffs.

You don't know what you mean because as you say "Everything is determined by variables that are beyond our comprehension". So how can I ‘ponder' the ‘depth' of what you are saying without you saying it or giving any evidence? Furthermore, what do you mean by "get in line with your own subconscious"? Surely, if you become aware of a subconscious, it is no longer sub conscious, but conscious? Also, why do you assume that those who are fully aware of Free Will have only come to it by only a "human overestimation of its own significance" and "shallow examination" as you so patronisingly put it? You have an almost blind faith in what you say, and your so called laws of "Cosmicomical" are really a jest on your part and is the only part I can take seriously, in the sense that I like your humour. Lastly, what do YOU mean by super natural?
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/26/2011 8:10:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 2:04:27 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 2/26/2011 11:30:33 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 2/26/2011 7:02:24 AM, Ogan wrote:
At 2/25/2011 4:14:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Everything is determined by variables that are beyond our comprehension. Why we appear to have free will on shallow examination, really what we perceive as free will is a sort of self awareness. It is perception, nothing else.

The deeper you get into your own mind, the more you get in line with your own subconscious.. The more you realize that our free will is just an illusion.. An illusion caused by our inability to comprehend the reaction that leads us to do what we do.

We have perception, and that is really it.

Everything is determined. You can call it destiny, I suppose.


Prove it.


If you understand what I mean, and can ponder the depth of what it is I am saying, it is only human overestimation of it's own significance that thinks otherwise. Human beings are not super natural, they can not break the law of the Cosmicomicon.

This truth is self evident on deeper examination. Asking me to prove it is like asking me to describe the piece of music that is being played on stage with sign language to someone wearing ear muffs.

You don't know what you mean because as you say "Everything is determined by variables that are beyond our comprehension". So how can I ‘ponder' the ‘depth' of what you are saying without you saying it or giving any evidence? Furthermore, what do you mean by "get in line with your own subconscious"? Surely, if you become aware of a subconscious, it is no longer sub conscious, but conscious? Also, why do you assume that those who are fully aware of Free Will have only come to it by only a "human overestimation of its own significance" and "shallow examination" as you so patronisingly put it? You have an almost blind faith in what you say, and your so called laws of "Cosmicomical" are really a jest on your part and is the only part I can take seriously, in the sense that I like your humour. Lastly, what do YOU mean by super natural?

By supernatural, I mean something above and beyond what is natural. To me, this is an absurdity, nothing can break what is natural.

There is no blind faith in this, it is a self evident truth. There is no way I could present evidence, because the evidence is in your own head and the world around you. Everything contained within the universe runs on cause and effect. While the cause and effect relations inside of the human body and mind are a tad more complex than light from the sun hitting a rock and making it warm, it is still nothing more, nothing less than a intricate chain reaction.

My assertion is that there is no free will, and that free will is an illusion caused by our inability to fully perceive the chain reaction that leads up to what it is we actually do. To think otherwise is false, though we should live our lives as if we have free will, since we don't have a choice anyway.

The thoughts that lead to these conclusions is logical, but one can not be guided to this realization, it is something that only comes with enlightenment.

One could argue that I am making the assumption that even though the universe seems chaotic, there is some kind of fundamental order in it. There is a fundamental order, but institutionalized into this order is the illusion of chaos . This fundamental order is outside of human understanding due to the limits of our own perception, and inability to objectively account for all variables. Our inability to account for all variables is perceived as chaos. Even a computer can be programmed to have a random number generator, but this does not mean that it is truly random.

There is no jest in what I say, and the Cosmicomicon is very real. In its pages are detailed the very laws and nature of reality, and reality itself. The Cosmicomicon has existed for all eternity. I am a translator of the Cosmicomicon.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp