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Stupid Brain

Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/24/2011 1:37:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
How can we know something, while our brain does not?

Perfect example is organ transplant rejection. If you know that we will die without the transplant, why the heck would your brain allow your body to mistake it for a foriegn invader?

Or, simply optical illusions. (see here) http://www.illusion-optical.com...

We know that the two tiles are the same color, so why does our brain try to second guess the eyes to trick us that they are not. Sure it is a habit that it has used to help recognize patterns and shades, but how can it not know that in this particular case, that trait is not needed?

That would be like someone who fought in war and wore cameo to blend in, never taking off their cameo, even when in a safeway picking up oranges. Sure it was helpful in the past, and it may be helpful later, but it isn't now, so why?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/24/2011 2:05:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
different levels of brain function. lower level perceptual processing and immune response aren't available to conscious control under any circumstances. though immune function can be effected by overall emotional state, its not a matter of "think x, body does y". its much more complicated.

but yeah the basic answer is that those mechanisms aren't available for conscious control. they'll run whether or not we're thinking about them. which is good, because it frees up our consciousness to work on the more complext problems of life. like how to avoid tigers and find mates and things.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Grape
Posts: 989
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2/24/2011 2:06:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 1:37:48 PM, OreEle wrote:
How can we know something, while our brain does not?

Perfect example is organ transplant rejection. If you know that we will die without the transplant, why the heck would your brain allow your body to mistake it for a foriegn invader?


The brain does not control organ acceptance or rejection in any way. That is largely governed by the immune system. The overwhelming majority of what the body does is unaffected by conscious thoughts. This also includes the processing of visual stimuli and other activities that might seem closely related to the mind.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/24/2011 2:08:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
i might add that even though we're in a difference environment now, theres still plenty of complex issues taking up our higher brain function, leaving little extra for other tasks.

and not only that, but i'm not sure its desirable. conscious control is pretty sh*tty a lot of the time. have you ever become consciously fixated on your breathing or walking? notice how much effort it takes to consciously coordinate those actions that are carried out effortlessly under normal circumstances? the differences are actually quite amazing.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/24/2011 5:42:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 2:06:40 PM, Grape wrote:
At 2/24/2011 1:37:48 PM, OreEle wrote:
How can we know something, while our brain does not?

Perfect example is organ transplant rejection. If you know that we will die without the transplant, why the heck would your brain allow your body to mistake it for a foriegn invader?


The brain does not control organ acceptance or rejection in any way. That is largely governed by the immune system. The overwhelming majority of what the body does is unaffected by conscious thoughts. This also includes the processing of visual stimuli and other activities that might seem closely related to the mind.

I know that the concious brain doesn't control those, but why does it make mistakes that the concious part knows are mistakes?

Like with the vision. The eyes just pick up the info, but the brain organizes the data and cuts corners (I understand that we've evolved to do that), but when your concious part of the brain knows that the cut corner is incorrect, why can't it correct itself?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/24/2011 5:43:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Or would it be more accurate to say, that rather than 1 single brain, we have a network of smaller brains that are not all able to communicate with each other?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/24/2011 5:44:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 2:18:07 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Phew!

When I first saw this I read Stupid Brian
You were certainly not the only one.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/24/2011 6:02:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 5:43:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
Or would it be more accurate to say, that rather than 1 single brain, we have a network of smaller brains that are not all able to communicate with each other?
Sort of. We have various "independent" areas of the brain that relay information across each other. To use your example the visual cortex, it's divided into 5 subsets - V1, V2, V3... Each play their individual roles, their malfunction can have various effects ranging from cortical blindness to simple colour blindness.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/24/2011 6:12:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 5:42:32 PM, OreEle wrote:
I know that the concious brain doesn't control those, but why does it make mistakes that the concious part knows are mistakes?

Like with the vision. The eyes just pick up the info, but the brain organizes the data and cuts corners (I understand that we've evolved to do that), but when your concious part of the brain knows that the cut corner is incorrect, why can't it correct itself?

the brain "cutting corners" is due to the brain's infrastructure... the way it's made

it's not ONLY a general apprehension device...though "Consciousness" seems to play that role...
much of the brain is prety Stuck/built around interpreting things in certain ways...

However.. I have a feeling you're talking about things like refraction of Light tricks and the like... which have less to do with your brain... and more to do with light..

whatever it is that you're talking about however... is likely due either to the manner in which outside things occur.. or the manner in which we observe things.... or perceptions due to the organizing structure of the brain... ALL of which are not subject to change all of a sudden due to a new idea floating about in your consciousness.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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2/24/2011 7:33:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why would humanity have evolved to accept foreign cells as valid occupants of the human body?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/24/2011 8:10:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 6:02:53 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Sort of. We have various "independent" areas of the brain that relay information across each other. To use your example the visual cortex, it's divided into 5 subsets - V1, V2, V3... Each play their individual roles, their malfunction can have various effects ranging from cortical blindness to simple colour blindness.

Or blindsightedness or various forms of agnosia. Blindsight is when subjects aren't consciously aware that they're seeing anything, but if asked to guess what it is that's in front of them, they usually get it right.

Agnosia is the opposite. It's when subjects can see things just fine, but have no idea what it is they're seeing. Here's an excerpt from "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales" by Oliver Sacks. Highly recommended if you're interested in neuroscience or philosophy of mind:

About six inches in length,' he commented. ‘A convoluted red form with a linear green attachment.'

‘Yes,' I said encouragingly, ‘and what do you think it is, Dr P.?'

‘Not easy to say.' He seemed perplexed. ‘It lacks the simple symmetry of the Platonic solids, although it may have a higher symmetry of its own. ... I think this could be an inflorescence or flower.'

‘Could be?' I queried.

‘Could be,' he confirmed.

‘Smell it,' I suggested, and he again looked somewhat puzzled, as if I had asked him to smell a higher symmetry. But he complied courteously, and took it to his nose. Now, suddenly, he came to life.

‘Beautiful!' he exclaimed. ‘An early rose. What a heavenly smell!' He started to hum ‘Die Rose, die Lillie ...' Reality, it seemed, might be conveyed by smell, not by sight.

I tried one final test. It was still a cold day, in early spring, and I had thrown my coat and gloves on the sofa. ‘What is this?' I asked, holding up a glove. ‘May I examine it?' he asked, and, taking it from me, he proceeded to examine it as he had examined the geometrical shapes.

‘A continuous surface,' he announced at last, ‘infolded on itself. It appears to have'—he hesitated—'five outpouchings, if this is the word.'

‘Yes,' I said cautiously. You have given me a description. Now tell me what it is.'

‘A container of some sort?'

Yes,' I said, ‘and what would it contain?'

‘It would contain its contents!' said Dr P., with a laugh. ‘There are many possibilities. It could be achange purse, for example, for coins of five sizes. It could ...'

I interrupted the barmy flow. ‘Does it not look familiar? Do you think it might contain, might fit, a part of your body?'

http://www.99chan.in...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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2/24/2011 9:02:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 8:10:53 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/24/2011 6:02:53 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Sort of. We have various "independent" areas of the brain that relay information across each other. To use your example the visual cortex, it's divided into 5 subsets - V1, V2, V3... Each play their individual roles, their malfunction can have various effects ranging from cortical blindness to simple colour blindness.

Or blindsightedness or various forms of agnosia. Blindsight is when subjects aren't consciously aware that they're seeing anything, but if asked to guess what it is that's in front of them, they usually get it right.


There's deafhearing, too.

On a side note people ascribing psychological predicates to the brain makes me :(. Just sayin'.
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BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/25/2011 12:32:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 7:33:57 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Why would humanity have evolved to accept foreign cells as valid occupants of the human body?

such as??

you're Not talking Mitochondria... right? o.O
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/26/2011 2:12:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 8:10:53 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/24/2011 6:02:53 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Sort of. We have various "independent" areas of the brain that relay information across each other. To use your example the visual cortex, it's divided into 5 subsets - V1, V2, V3... Each play their individual roles, their malfunction can have various effects ranging from cortical blindness to simple colour blindness.

Or blindsightedness or various forms of agnosia. Blindsight is when subjects aren't consciously aware that they're seeing anything, but if asked to guess what it is that's in front of them, they usually get it right.

Agnosia is the opposite. It's when subjects can see things just fine, but have no idea what it is they're seeing. Here's an excerpt from "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales" by Oliver Sacks. Highly recommended if you're interested in neuroscience or philosophy of mind:
C'est ma femme. For me it was one them books you buy, but don't read. I still haven't get town to "For a New Liberty" yet and that's like 4th on the list.
'sup DDO -- july 2013