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Hedonism

Kleptin
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3/2/2011 11:31:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have stated a few times that close to the end of my life, I will be converting to some religion. This has shocked some people before since I used to be such an outspoken critic of theism. I wanted to expand on that and get some feedback.

Some people value the ability to express ideas in a way that makes it very persuasive to others. I find that I have the ability to forcefully convince myself of things that may or may not be true and truly believe in it. I can force faith.

That being the case, it will not be hard for me, over the course of 10 years or so, to actually develop faith in God, despite all the philosophical arguments for atheism.

Having said that, I'll now justify my purpose in performing such a feat.

The backlash I normally receive from my more philosophically minded friends is that it demonstrates a lack of integrity, or some such argument. Generally, the notion is that I should not live my life based on a lie.

My response is to question that particular value. In a statement of what should or should not be done, we should examine the values.

I have concluded that the only values which concern me as a human being are the ones pertaining to maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. For me, this supersedes values such as living a life based on rationality or truth.

As such, I am prepared to live my life according to a lie if in the long run, it will provide more pleasure than pain. Living life convinced that I am going to have something after death will be worth it.

Comments?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
mongoose
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3/2/2011 11:34:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I say go for it. It is a rather interesting way to view your own religion, as something that you've forced on yourself for the sake of having the comfort of religion.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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3/2/2011 11:35:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't see how you could possibly force yourself to truly believe that, but I'll take your word for it that you can. What about your loved ones? Do they believe in an afterlife? If not, don't you think that it would bother you at the end of your life, knowing that they won't go to heaven with you (assuming, that they, like pretty much everyone else, can't force themselves into true faith the way you can)?
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Kleptin
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3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/2/2011 11:44:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.

Kleptin, no offense -- but I seriously doubt that will happen. You might be really good at convincing yourself but can you delude yourself into thinking your delusion isn't delusion?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Kleptin
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3/2/2011 11:45:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:35:39 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't see how you could possibly force yourself to truly believe that, but I'll take your word for it that you can. What about your loved ones? Do they believe in an afterlife? If not, don't you think that it would bother you at the end of your life, knowing that they won't go to heaven with you (assuming, that they, like pretty much everyone else, can't force themselves into true faith the way you can)?

That's a legitimate concern but I'll have to see what form of religion I'll actually convince myself of when the time comes. I can trick myself into thinking that God and heaven exists, but brainwashing myself on the specifics on getting there? That may be a bit beyond me.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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3/2/2011 11:54:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:45:31 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:35:39 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't see how you could possibly force yourself to truly believe that, but I'll take your word for it that you can. What about your loved ones? Do they believe in an afterlife? If not, don't you think that it would bother you at the end of your life, knowing that they won't go to heaven with you (assuming, that they, like pretty much everyone else, can't force themselves into true faith the way you can)?

That's a legitimate concern but I'll have to see what form of religion I'll actually convince myself of when the time comes. I can trick myself into thinking that God and heaven exists, but brainwashing myself on the specifics on getting there? That may be a bit beyond me.

But how can you knowingly deny That Religion will be your Opium when you clearly understand it to be so, and indeed your reason for pursuit?
Vi_Veri
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3/2/2011 11:57:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd like to see you succeed at such a task. Very doubtful, so I say save yourself the mental anguish.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/3/2011 12:09:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:31:04 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I have stated a few times that close to the end of my life, I will be converting to some religion. This has shocked some people before since I used to be such an outspoken critic of theism. I wanted to expand on that and get some feedback.

Some people value the ability to express ideas in a way that makes it very persuasive to others. I find that I have the ability to forcefully convince myself of things that may or may not be true and truly believe in it. I can force faith.

That is quite the ability you have their. Sounds like a difficult, perhaps even futile, task to force yourself to believe that "x" is true while simultaneously believing that "x" is false.

That being the case, it will not be hard for me, over the course of 10 years or so, to actually develop faith in God, despite all the philosophical arguments for atheism.

The only way to get around the philosophical arguments for Atheism would be to ignore them. They are just too potent to remain unconvinced.

Having said that, I'll now justify my purpose in performing such a feat.

The backlash I normally receive from my more philosophically minded friends is that it demonstrates a lack of integrity, or some such argument. Generally, the notion is that I should not live my life based on a lie.

You can live your life however you want, I think the so-called "philosophically minded friends" of yours would probably just tell you it's not in your best interest, but they won't tell you what you "ought" to do.

My response is to question that particular value. In a statement of what should or should not be done, we should examine the values.

I have concluded that the only values which concern me as a human being are the ones pertaining to maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. For me, this supersedes values such as living a life based on rationality or truth.

In order to make decisions that maximise pleasure, you must make correct decisions. In order to make correct decisions, you must have certain knowledge of things that are true.

As such, I am prepared to live my life according to a lie if in the long run, it will provide more pleasure than pain. Living life convinced that I am going to have something after death will be worth it.

Comments?

Worrying about the next life will hinder your ability to enjoy this life. The idea that you only get ONE life makes you cherish it more because it's the only life you got. If you get life, and then an afterlife, and life just keeps going on, life is no longer that rare gem.
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/3/2011 1:31:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Nah, you fvcked up.

What you are describing is called "Blashpemy against the holy spirit", which is the only unforgivable sin in Christianity.

Basically, intellectual dishonesty.

Yes, I'm aware of the irony.

inb4 ignorant Christian tells me that isn't what it means.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/3/2011 1:44:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So don't pick Christianity.

I recommend Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous(as that one probably suits you better).

They are the only religions that flat out say, "Fake it till you make it".

Plus, you can always pick gravity as a higher power. Gravity'll fvck a n!gga up.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/3/2011 8:24:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:31:04 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I have stated a few times that close to the end of my life, I will be converting to some religion. This has shocked some people before since I used to be such an outspoken critic of theism. I wanted to expand on that and get some feedback.

Some people value the ability to express ideas in a way that makes it very persuasive to others. I find that I have the ability to forcefully convince myself of things that may or may not be true and truly believe in it. I can force faith.

If you manage to "convince" yourself at all (which i very much doubt)... you'll probably end up "Spliced" between the two... and be a pathetic, crazy nutter who struggles constantly.

That being the case, it will not be hard for me, over the course of 10 years or so, to actually develop faith in God, despite all the philosophical arguments for atheism.

lol

Having said that, I'll now justify my purpose in performing such a feat.

The backlash I normally receive from my more philosophically minded friends is that it demonstrates a lack of integrity, or some such argument. Generally, the notion is that I should not live my life based on a lie.

The only reason to want such a delusion is b/c you're discontent with the world as it is, and You as you are... However, actively Deluding yourself so will not only be problematic.. Even if you were successful, you'd prolly still have to deal with feeling shitty about yourself, Your unworthiness, and aptness to "sin"... Just look at Godsands and how he's always on about Being a new being/True Christianity... and then seemingly depressed for falling short..

Better to not run from you problems to hide in delusion and hope they don't find you.. better to try to address them head on.

try to accept yourself and the world... Embrace how you are, and do as you would do.

Then there is no struggling from feeling bad about not meeting Outside standards... from falling short.. Your standards are what you would have done... and you do what you would.

If you're depressed about the nature of things generally... try to accept them.. Meditation is good :)

My response is to question that particular value. In a statement of what should or should not be done, we should examine the values.

Your own values.. Based in what you care about..

Clinging to god complicates this... you are no longer supposed to do what you would do... but do what God would have you do.. Act to please god.

so, although you might think believing in god would bring happiness... if "HIS" will is ever different than your own... if "his" values/cares conflict... then You Will "struggle" with "sin"... and STILL be all depressed about you and the world.

I have concluded that the only values which concern me as a human being are the ones pertaining to maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. For me, this supersedes values such as living a life based on rationality or truth.

As such, I am prepared to live my life according to a lie if in the long run, it will provide more pleasure than pain. Living life convinced that I am going to have something after death will be worth it.

Comments?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/3/2011 2:47:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:31:04 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I have stated a few times that close to the end of my life, I will be converting to some religion. This has shocked some people before since I used to be such an outspoken critic of theism. I wanted to expand on that and get some feedback.

Some people value the ability to express ideas in a way that makes it very persuasive to others. I find that I have the ability to forcefully convince myself of things that may or may not be true and truly believe in it. I can force faith.

That being the case, it will not be hard for me, over the course of 10 years or so, to actually develop faith in God, despite all the philosophical arguments for atheism.

Having said that, I'll now justify my purpose in performing such a feat.

The backlash I normally receive from my more philosophically minded friends is that it demonstrates a lack of integrity, or some such argument. Generally, the notion is that I should not live my life based on a lie.

My response is to question that particular value. In a statement of what should or should not be done, we should examine the values.

I have concluded that the only values which concern me as a human being are the ones pertaining to maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. For me, this supersedes values such as living a life based on rationality or truth.

As such, I am prepared to live my life according to a lie if in the long run, it will provide more pleasure than pain. Living life convinced that I am going to have something after death will be worth it.

Comments?

you're a looney :) good luck to ya though.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/3/2011 2:51:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:45:31 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:35:39 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't see how you could possibly force yourself to truly believe that, but I'll take your word for it that you can. What about your loved ones? Do they believe in an afterlife? If not, don't you think that it would bother you at the end of your life, knowing that they won't go to heaven with you (assuming, that they, like pretty much everyone else, can't force themselves into true faith the way you can)?

That's a legitimate concern but I'll have to see what form of religion I'll actually convince myself of when the time comes. I can trick myself into thinking that God and heaven exists, but brainwashing myself on the specifics on getting there? That may be a bit beyond me.

how can you do this, i'd love to know? i believe what i believe..simple as..
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/3/2011 2:57:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
no wait.. i'mma try and trick myself into thinking you're black! ...though it probably wouldn't be as funny as if you did it to yourself..

i was just remembering when i used to think sac8 was a 7 foot black dude.. fun times :)
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/3/2011 3:04:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.:

Which would itself be a delusion o_0
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/3/2011 3:05:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 3:04:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.:

Which would itself be a delusion o_0

... o_0
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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/3/2011 3:09:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 3:04:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.:

Which would itself be a delusion o_0

Exactly. Which is why I asked, "You might be really good at convincing yourself but can you delude yourself into thinking your delusion isn't delusion?"

Never got an answer. :P
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/3/2011 3:22:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 3:20:33 PM, badger wrote:
...it's just one delusion, people.

well i'd consider it just one anyway :)
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innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/3/2011 3:30:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 3:09:59 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:04:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.:

Which would itself be a delusion o_0

Exactly. Which is why I asked, "You might be really good at convincing yourself but can you delude yourself into thinking your delusion isn't delusion?"

Never got an answer. :P

One man's delusion is another man's error in judgment.

I think Kleptin's OP is ridiculous, and demonstrates that he doesn't understand the nature of personal faith, and how little it has to do with hedonism. Those who are like Kleptin, and find faith, are challenged by it, not sedated by it.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/3/2011 3:34:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 3:30:32 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:09:59 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:04:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.:

Which would itself be a delusion o_0

Exactly. Which is why I asked, "You might be really good at convincing yourself but can you delude yourself into thinking your delusion isn't delusion?"

Never got an answer. :P

One man's delusion is another man's error in judgment.

I think Kleptin's OP is ridiculous, and demonstrates that he doesn't understand the nature of personal faith, and how little it has to do with hedonism. Those who are like Kleptin, and find faith, are challenged by it, not sedated by it.

I completely agree. This is the same problem I have with C_N. :)
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/3/2011 3:34:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 3:30:32 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:09:59 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:04:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.:

Which would itself be a delusion o_0

Exactly. Which is why I asked, "You might be really good at convincing yourself but can you delude yourself into thinking your delusion isn't delusion?"

Never got an answer. :P

One man's delusion is another man's error in judgment.

I think Kleptin's OP is ridiculous, and demonstrates that he doesn't understand the nature of personal faith, and how little it has to do with hedonism. Those who are like Kleptin, and find faith, are challenged by it, not sedated by it.

...so you didn't find your faith in rehab? :)
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/3/2011 3:36:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
i don't think it's ridiculous... i just couldn't do it.. or consciously do it at least.. subconsciously maybe...
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innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/3/2011 3:43:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 3:34:09 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:30:32 PM, innomen wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:09:59 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/3/2011 3:04:32 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:42:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:34:36 PM, annhasle wrote:
Are you sure you can derive happiness from something you know to be simply delusion?

That's not the point. The point is to convince myself it ISN'T a delusion.:

Which would itself be a delusion o_0

Exactly. Which is why I asked, "You might be really good at convincing yourself but can you delude yourself into thinking your delusion isn't delusion?"

Never got an answer. :P

One man's delusion is another man's error in judgment.

I think Kleptin's OP is ridiculous, and demonstrates that he doesn't understand the nature of personal faith, and how little it has to do with hedonism. Those who are like Kleptin, and find faith, are challenged by it, not sedated by it.

I completely agree. This is the same problem I have with C_N. :)

I actually thought this OP could have easily have been written by C_N. I thought that while i was reading it.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/3/2011 3:44:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think deluding yourself is only going to cause you more pain and misery in the long term. It isn't going to maximize pleasure.

The smart thing to do from even a hedonistic standpoint is to get real with yourself.

Some of the most miserable people I know are people who delude themselves into believing something that conflicts with reality. Pentecostal Christians are the worst.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp