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Belief v Knowledge

Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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3/16/2011 2:07:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I always find this a bit confusing.

When we say, we believe in something, doesn't that mean that we don't actually know for sure whether it's true?

For example, when it's proved to us that 2 + 2 = 4, do we say, "I believe 2 + 2 = 4"? Wouldn't the fact that it's been proved make it redundant whether we believe in it or not?

Also, when a lawyer proves conlusively that a person is guilty or not guilty, wouldn't the judge's belief be redundant. Doesn't the judge/jury have no choice but to convict/free the defendant?

Conversely, when we dont' know something for sure, like when a loved one says when they didn't do it, when almost all evidence points to them having done it, don't we say "I believe in you"?

So what is it? Does belief indicate acknowledgement that it could be false or true?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/16/2011 4:07:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
you need to have a belief to have knowledge, but not all beliefs are considered knowledge. in other words, knowledge is generally viewed as a specific subset of belief in which you are especially sure (justified true belief, although i did see an argument awhile back that somewhat blew that out of the water).

when people use the terms though, usually what they mean is a belief they are really sure of.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/16/2011 4:14:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
2 + 2 = 4 can't be proven. It's an axiom.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/16/2011 4:15:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 4:14:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
2 + 2 = 4 can't be proven. It's an axiom.

All mathematical truths are axiomatic.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/16/2011 4:22:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 4:15:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/16/2011 4:14:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
2 + 2 = 4 can't be proven. It's an axiom.

All mathematical truths are axiomatic.

meh. they are assembled from a set of basic starting axioms. but they are not themselves axioms.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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3/16/2011 4:23:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 4:07:25 PM, belle wrote:
(justified true belief, although i did see an argument awhile back that somewhat blew that out of the water).


Gettier problems?
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Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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3/16/2011 4:23:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 4:14:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
2 + 2 = 4 can't be proven. It's an axiom.

I am sure you can definitely come up with a better example for the thrust of my post than the one I came up with.....
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/16/2011 4:24:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 4:23:04 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/16/2011 4:07:25 PM, belle wrote:
(justified true belief, although i did see an argument awhile back that somewhat blew that out of the water).


Gettier problems?

indeed
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/16/2011 4:34:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 4:23:23 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 3/16/2011 4:14:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
2 + 2 = 4 can't be proven. It's an axiom.

I am sure you can definitely come up with a better example for the thrust of my post than the one I came up with.....

What he said is correct for all areas of mathematics. Even value isn't necessarily fixed. In fact in many areas of mathematics 2+2=/=4.
Everything in maths which is "proven" is derived from a bunch of made up rules which we assume to be true --> axioms
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/16/2011 11:56:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 4:14:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
2 + 2 = 4 can't be proven. It's an axiom.

No it isn't. The proof of 2+2=4 is built from an axiom(s).

http://us.metamath.org...
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/16/2011 11:58:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 2:07:36 PM, Indophile wrote:
When we say, we believe in something, doesn't that mean that we don't actually know for sure whether it's true?

Saying 'I believe' is synonymous to saying 'I agree that' - the actual knowledge claim to the belief claim is separate from it. Knowledge can result in true beliefs. Beliefs by themselves, even if true, do not result in knowledge.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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3/17/2011 5:05:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 11:58:42 PM, Puck wrote:
At 3/16/2011 2:07:36 PM, Indophile wrote:
When we say, we believe in something, doesn't that mean that we don't actually know for sure whether it's true?

Saying 'I believe' is synonymous to saying 'I agree that' - the actual knowledge claim to the belief claim is separate from it. Knowledge can result in true beliefs. Beliefs by themselves, even if true, do not result in knowledge.

The classic third qualifier, discussed first by the likes of Socrates, was justification being part of the formula (thus justified true belief). As mentioned before, the landmark introduction of Gettier problems has shaped epistemology to where most discussions have been in response to this - usually there are theories attempting to "de-Gettierize" justified true belief, usually by adding additional qualifiers.
sal
Posts: 319
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3/17/2011 3:48:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
knowledge is something you know absolutely. like I exist. Even if you proved to me that I don't exist I'm still going to eat tonight. Or I have 10 fingers.

belief is you have reasonable evidence to except it as truth. Like witnesses or believing that the world is round.

There is one more category called faith. belief by desire.
like I believe my friend is innocent even against the evidence.