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Egoism (offshoot from the nihilism thread)

Indophile
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3/17/2011 10:09:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 12:06:27 AM, annhasle wrote:
Well, since egoism =/= nihilism -- a separate thread would make sense.
Yes.
Wouldn't you say that it's imperative for society to ensure that innocent life is protected, and actions that tend towards the taking of innocent life be prohibited?

Yes.
Good

So you woudn't say that a person holding your stance would feel no wrong in taking advantage of a weaker person knowing that the law would be unable to catch and punish him/her?

Guilt or remorse might ensue but would it be "wrong"? No.
How would guilt or remorse ensue if the person doesn't feel what he's doing is wrong?

Even now people do such things (mugging, conning), but at least they feel/know that what they are doing is wrong. Would this be the case for a person who follows psychological egoism combined with the idea that morals don't objectively exist?

I might have a negative reaction but that is hardly justification to NOT do something. I hate eating vegetables and rarely enjoy doing so but I still do since its beneficial. I could say the same about attacking someone.

How do you resolve this with the agreed upon assumption that innocent life should be protected? Do you mean to say that it should be illegal to take an innocent life, but it's alright as long as it's done in such a manner that it's impossible for the authorities to find out?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
mattrodstrom
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3/17/2011 10:16:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
the only "rational" justification for egoist actions is that they help bring forth things which you care about.. or avoid things from happening which you find unpleasant.

there's no supporting what "society" should do but from a given perspective... Though many people can have relevantly similar perspectives.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/17/2011 10:19:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:16:11 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
the only "rational" justification for egoist actions is that they help bring forth things which you care about.. or avoid things from happening which you find unpleasant.

there's no supporting what "society" should do but from a given perspective... Though many people can have relevantly similar perspectives.

also, many people can stand in similar relation to common problems...

and Given that you're assuming that others have relevantly similar perspectives.. You can argue that what you support ought to be supported by others for the same reasons that you support it (though this certainly cannot be said for Everyone)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/17/2011 10:26:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
oh, and also.. just in case you weren't aware... Egoism is the root of "morality"

those who think morality is otherwise have unreasonable ideas about the nature of the world :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/18/2011 4:05:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
lol @ matt being the only person to post in this thread. also...

if you're talking about egoism and nihilism as moral theories they are clearly contradictory...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/18/2011 4:17:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 4:05:21 PM, belle wrote:
lol @ matt being the only person to post in this thread. also...

if you're talking about egoism and nihilism as moral theories they are clearly contradictory...

When morality is gone, what else is there to do but whatever you please?
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annhasle
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3/18/2011 4:17:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 4:05:21 PM, belle wrote:
if you're talking about egoism and nihilism as moral theories they are clearly contradictory...

No, this is in reference to psychological egoism.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
belle
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3/18/2011 4:18:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 4:17:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 4:05:21 PM, belle wrote:
lol @ matt being the only person to post in this thread. also...

if you're talking about egoism and nihilism as moral theories they are clearly contradictory...

When morality is gone, what else is there to do but whatever you please?

ok... but as a moral theory, egoism claims that the moral thing to do is what benefits you. nihilism claims that there is no moral thing to do.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/18/2011 6:04:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:29:17 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How come Absurdism always gets left out of these things? That's where it's at!
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
annhasle
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3/19/2011 12:11:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:29:17 PM, FREEDO wrote:
How come Absurdism always gets left out of these things? That's where it's at!

No one takes it seriously enough to even want to start talking about it. >.>
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 4:18:22 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/18/2011 4:17:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 4:05:21 PM, belle wrote:
lol @ matt being the only person to post in this thread. also...

if you're talking about egoism and nihilism as moral theories they are clearly contradictory...

When morality is gone, what else is there to do but whatever you please?

ok... but as a moral theory, egoism claims that the moral thing to do is what benefits you. nihilism claims that there is no moral thing to do.

I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tvellalott
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3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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belle
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3/19/2011 3:42:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.

lol been reading nietzsche?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
tvellalott
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3/19/2011 3:48:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:42:57 AM, belle wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.

lol been reading nietzsche?

Yep. :P
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/19/2011 3:48:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.

What is the difference between a moral nihilist expressivist and a meta ethical moral relativist?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tvellalott
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3/19/2011 3:52:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:48:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.

What is the difference between a moral nihilist expressivist and a meta ethical moral relativist?

I'm not certain, but it seems nothing except the rejection of the word 'moral'.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/19/2011 3:56:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:52:38 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:48:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.

What is the difference between a moral nihilist expressivist and a meta ethical moral relativist?

I'm not certain, but it seems nothing except the rejection of the word 'moral'.

Well I am either one, or both. Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
belle
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3/19/2011 4:00:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:48:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.

What is the difference between a moral nihilist expressivist and a meta ethical moral relativist?

the moral relativist believes there *is* a such thing as moral facts... that when i say "x is moral" the statement is true... but that such a statement is only true for some individual or group of individuals, and not for everyone else, the same way that "x is my brother" may or may not be true depending on who says it. an expressivist would say something similar, but rather than believing in moral facts, he would believe that when people claim something is "moral" they are just expressing some opinion or feeling of theirs. thus the statement "x is moral" would actually mean "i feel x is moral" and that second statement would be true. effectively (as far as behavior is concerned) the difference is negligable.... but its regarding the existence of moral facts. i suppose technically an expressivist could be considered a nihilist but its not usually put that way....
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
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3/19/2011 4:03:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 3:56:11 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:52:38 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:48:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:40:43 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/19/2011 3:39:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I read that and I though... how silly... but then a little lightbulb went of above my head. I may be a nihilist... oh I am so confused.

Don't worry about it; I don't. Fvck morals, they're for chumps.

What is the difference between a moral nihilist expressivist and a meta ethical moral relativist?

I'm not certain, but it seems nothing except the rejection of the word 'moral'.

Well I am either one, or both. Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread.

Absurdists say there might be true morals but if there are we still won't know.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
tvellalott
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3/19/2011 4:09:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 4:07:37 AM, belle wrote:
maybe the absurdists should just talk amongst themselves...

I find it very similar to Nihilism, with a slightly cooler name. :P
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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FREEDO
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3/19/2011 4:13:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 4:07:37 AM, belle wrote:
maybe the absurdists should just talk amongst themselves...

I don't get why people are so closed off to the idea that the answer to the morality question might, just MIGHT, be out of understanding and that the question, itself, absurd!
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
tvellalott
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3/19/2011 4:18:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 4:13:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/19/2011 4:07:37 AM, belle wrote:
maybe the absurdists should just talk amongst themselves...

I don't get why people are so closed off to the idea that the answer to the morality question might, just MIGHT, be out of understanding and that the question, itself, absurd!

I almost completely agree with that.
Absurdism seems to assert that there is an answer, it's just outside of understanding. I don't agree with that.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
belle
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3/19/2011 4:23:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 4:13:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/19/2011 4:07:37 AM, belle wrote:
maybe the absurdists should just talk amongst themselves...

I don't get why people are so closed off to the idea that the answer to the morality question might, just MIGHT, be out of understanding and that the question, itself, absurd!

i just don't see the point in declaring everything absurd and thus closed to serious discourse. way to give up before you've even started...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
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3/19/2011 4:30:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 4:23:32 AM, belle wrote:
At 3/19/2011 4:13:37 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/19/2011 4:07:37 AM, belle wrote:
maybe the absurdists should just talk amongst themselves...

I don't get why people are so closed off to the idea that the answer to the morality question might, just MIGHT, be out of understanding and that the question, itself, absurd!

i just don't see the point in declaring everything absurd and thus closed to serious discourse. way to give up before you've even started...

Cause you NEVER see Absurdists engage in discussions like this....

Absurdism is very close to Existentionalism. Indeed, I have "play" beliefs and one of them is that the meaning is in the means, not in the ends. That is, the discussion itself is more meaningful than the answer. It is even in all Absurdists' view that that's possibly where the real meaning is, if there is a real meaning.
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fnord
FREEDO
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3/19/2011 4:34:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Also, Absurdists are not closed-off to the idea that Absurdism could be wrong and that meaning is graspable, not in the slightest.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord