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A Lesson On Personal Responsibility

GeoLaureate8
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3/29/2011 9:35:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"You must distinguish the difference between saying 'Have I been sold a lie?' And the difference between 'Yeah, but have I bought a lie.' Because there's all the difference in the world attitudinally between those two statements. You are being sold a lie! But that's the perfect right of that salesman to sell you a lie."
-- Michael Tsarion

"As soon as I hear that somebody is thinking that another authority or another person has the rights over their mental and emotional and attitudinal and psychic life, I'm worried about that person because I know that person has got some very serious psychological and existential problems. Then that person is going to be part of some herd, or will be a controller of a herd, or will be manipulated by the herd. And you're never going to find that person doing good in the world, real necessary good at all. It's just a contradiction in terms."
-- Michael Tsarion

"So the fundamental line is discover that there is a hidden hand mind controlling the world operating to keep you down. Understand that you are participant in that because you are allowing those hooks into your flesh."
-- Michael Tsarion

"Because in this there is no teacher, no pupil; there is no leader; there is no guru; there is no Master, no Saviour. You yourself are the teacher and the pupil; you are the Master; you are the guru; you are the leader; you are everything."
-- J. Krishnamurti

==============================

Discuss.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/29/2011 9:55:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Right on, I'd say.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GeoLaureate8
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3/30/2011 3:41:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No contenders? Really? There seemed to be a lot of contentions in the other thread.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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3/30/2011 3:47:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 3:41:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No contenders? Really? There seemed to be a lot of contentions in the other thread.

An OP filled with quotes and no analysis is hardly a basis for discussion. I have no idea what you're even trying to get across -- do you agree with them? Disagree? What thoughts are you trying to provoke? Truly, I have no impulse to decipher separate takes on "personal philosophy" from random authors you have put forth. But I'm willing to discuss what YOU think.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Greyparrot
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3/30/2011 3:52:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Something you could discuss about personal responsibility is that it assumes we have free will.

Other than that, I agree with the OP quotes
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/30/2011 3:55:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Whether you have free will or not does not eliminate personal responsibility.

Responsibility in itself is a human centric construct. To even have a discussion about this, we must speak from a human centric position rather than an objective position. Objectively, responsibility is irrelevant(and lets not turn this into a topic about that, I'm trying to keep us on topic.)
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
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3/30/2011 4:00:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 3:55:15 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Whether you have free will or not does not eliminate personal responsibility.

Responsibility in itself is a human centric construct. To even have a discussion about this, we must speak from a human centric position rather than an objective position. Objectively, responsibility is irrelevant(and lets not turn this into a topic about that, I'm trying to keep us on topic.)

Why would a fatalist be concerned about his choices then?
GeoLaureate8
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3/30/2011 4:01:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 3:47:38 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/30/2011 3:41:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No contenders? Really? There seemed to be a lot of contentions in the other thread.

An OP filled with quotes and no analysis is hardly a basis for discussion. I have no idea what you're even trying to get across

I guess you'd have to read the Hitler/Manson thread to get the context of this. Basically, nearly everyone said that Hitler bears responsibility for the death of 6 million people while I claimed that you can't blame Hitler for that, but rather blame those who actually did the deeds, ie. the Nazis.

Some were trying to tell me that you shouldn't blame the "puppet" who was being asked to carry out the killing because people are open to suggestion. For example, someone brought up the prisoner/warden experiment or the experiment where if people were asked to push a button that killed someone, they'd do it because they are inclined to follow orders.

Perhaps the quotes I posted above make more sense now.

-- do you agree with them? Disagree?

Agree.

What thoughts are you trying to provoke?

See above explanation.

Truly, I have no impulse to decipher separate takes on "personal philosophy" from random authors you have put forth. But I'm willing to discuss what YOU think.

Well those authors influence how I think so I would be inclined to agree with their arguments. Just think of it as me having a Reasoning moment. :P

But yeah, I did explain what I think in the other thread, I posted this to validate my points and create further discussion on this particular matter.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/30/2011 4:01:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Basically, everyone has a right to say whatever it is they want.. But don't blame the person speaking if you bought into what they say.

If someone gains enough power to convince 200 people to slaughter a small villiage.. They all get captured. Is it right for them to point at the guy who told them all to do it, if he didn't actually physically harm anyone?

Should such a man be imprisoned or punished for exercising his right to free speech?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
annhasle
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3/30/2011 4:06:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 4:01:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2011 3:47:38 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/30/2011 3:41:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No contenders? Really? There seemed to be a lot of contentions in the other thread.

An OP filled with quotes and no analysis is hardly a basis for discussion. I have no idea what you're even trying to get across

I guess you'd have to read the Hitler/Manson thread to get the context of this. Basically, nearly everyone said that Hitler bears responsibility for the death of 6 million people while I claimed that you can't blame Hitler for that, but rather blame those who actually did the deeds, ie. the Nazis.

Some were trying to tell me that you shouldn't blame the "puppet" who was being asked to carry out the killing because people are open to suggestion. For example, someone brought up the prisoner/warden experiment or the experiment where if people were asked to push a button that killed someone, they'd do it because they are inclined to follow orders.

Ah, now it makes more sense. I'm inclined to agree with you.

Perhaps the quotes I posted above make more sense now.

-- do you agree with them? Disagree?

Agree.

As do I.

What thoughts are you trying to provoke?

See above explanation.

Truly, I have no impulse to decipher separate takes on "personal philosophy" from random authors you have put forth. But I'm willing to discuss what YOU think.

Well those authors influence how I think so I would be inclined to agree with their arguments. Just think of it as me having a Reasoning moment. :P

Haha, fine. Just don't make it a habit! Or at least post a disclaimer explaining the purpose of a new thread.

But yeah, I did explain what I think in the other thread, I posted this to validate my points and create further discussion on this particular matter.

Understood.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
GeoLaureate8
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3/30/2011 4:08:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Note about authors of the quotes:

Michael Tsarion is a syncretic researcher who studies conspiracies, philosophy, psychology, ancient history, extraterrestrials, and religion.

Krishnamurti is a 20th century philosopher from England who has an Eastern background and influence, but has philosophies that are rather bleak, atheistic, etc. compared to the usual guru philosophies of the East.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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3/30/2011 4:11:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 3:47:38 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 3/30/2011 3:41:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No contenders? Really? There seemed to be a lot of contentions in the other thread.

An OP filled with quotes and no analysis is hardly a basis for discussion. I have no idea what you're even trying to get across -- do you agree with them? Disagree? What thoughts are you trying to provoke? Truly, I have no impulse to decipher separate takes on "personal philosophy" from random authors you have put forth. But I'm willing to discuss what YOU think.

I'm with Ann, i get a little annoyed by a collection of quotes and then are given the word to "Discuss". I'd really rather have your thoughts on the page rather than someone else's. You're not Reasoning.
Greyparrot
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3/30/2011 4:12:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 4:08:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Note about authors of the quotes:

Michael Tsarion is a syncretic researcher who studies conspiracies, philosophy, psychology, ancient history, extraterrestrials, and religion.

Krishnamurti is a 20th century philosopher from England who has an Eastern background and influence, but has philosophies that are rather bleak, atheistic, etc. compared to the usual guru philosophies of the East.

That's like finding out the delicious food you were eating was actually dog pancreas.
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/30/2011 4:15:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ideas stand on their own.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GeoLaureate8
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3/30/2011 4:22:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 4:17:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/30/2011 4:15:40 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Ideas stand on their own.

The facts speak for themselves.

wut?

I'm not sure what is about the authors that you're not fond of.

Also, it doesn't matter who says a thing if it's true. For example, Napolean and Hitler have some very note-worthy quotables of truth.

However, the men I mentioned are good men of the highest calibur.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
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3/30/2011 4:23:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 4:22:26 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2011 4:17:50 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/30/2011 4:15:40 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Ideas stand on their own.

The facts speak for themselves.

wut?

I'm not sure what is about the authors that you're not fond of.

Also, it doesn't matter who says a thing if it's true. For example, Napolean and Hitler have some very note-worthy quotables of truth.

However, the men I mentioned are good men of the highest calibur.

subjective designation.
GeoLaureate8
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3/30/2011 4:32:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 4:26:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I was just trying to be humorous :(

Oh ok, lol.

What do you think about free-will and personal responsibility Geo?

Yes, I believe in free will. Also, if free will is true, then my assertions on personal responsibility are true.

Only a Determinist could possibly make an argument to the contrary, and even then, it's still possible for every man to be responsible for his own actions because he did them whether it was determined or not.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/30/2011 5:50:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 4:32:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2011 4:26:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I was just trying to be humorous :(

Oh ok, lol.

What do you think about free-will and personal responsibility Geo?

Yes, I believe in free will. Also, if free will is true, then my assertions on personal responsibility are true.

Only a Determinist could possibly make an argument to the contrary, and even then, it's still possible for every man to be responsible for his own actions because he did them whether it was determined or not.

Only a bad determinist. A stupid determinist who falsely believes that being aware of their own robotic nature gives them a license to be an @sshole.

Actually, anyone who thinks such a thing is probably NOT aware of their robotic nature, and are just parroting off sh!t in an attempt to justify to the world why they are such big poosies.

The only difference between someone who believes in Free will, and one who realizes that free will is an illusion is awareness. That is it. Understanding that you are really just a complex machine does not change the fact that you are a complex machine, and it does not change the fact that you experience what seems to be free will.

If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't.

When it comes to these matters, things are different depending on what perspective you look through.

Objectively, we have no free will, and everything is determined. Human beings are remarkably complex, especially compared to inanimate objects which have very limited reaction to outside stimuli and internal stimuli, and other forms of life, which are still limited in their reaction to outside and internal stimuli when compared to humans.

Subjectively, we have free will, and are capable of altering ourselves immensely. The idea that human beings are only set apart due to our complexity is repugnant to some, but very realistic, probable, and plausible.

To deny determinism is to say that there is an element of true chaos in actuality.. It is like saying that there is piece of the universe that can react to nothing, but effects everything else..

Even that element or force would have to be subject to its own laws, and for that reason, couldn't be truly chaotic.

Pondering the questions of both infinity and chaos will make your head asplode. They are both just as incomprehensible.. However, I find infinity easier to accept than true chaos. I'm still open to true chaos, though it would probably be impossible to convince me that it wasn't just our own ignorance that makes it seem chaotic.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
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3/30/2011 6:06:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 5:50:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 3/30/2011 4:32:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2011 4:26:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I was just trying to be humorous :(

Oh ok, lol.

What do you think about free-will and personal responsibility Geo?

Yes, I believe in free will. Also, if free will is true, then my assertions on personal responsibility are true.

Only a Determinist could possibly make an argument to the contrary, and even then, it's still possible for every man to be responsible for his own actions because he did them whether it was determined or not.

Only a bad determinist. A stupid determinist who falsely believes that being aware of their own robotic nature gives them a license to be an @sshole.

Actually, anyone who thinks such a thing is probably NOT aware of their robotic nature, and are just parroting off sh!t in an attempt to justify to the world why they are such big poosies.

The only difference between someone who believes in Free will, and one who realizes that free will is an illusion is awareness. That is it. Understanding that you are really just a complex machine does not change the fact that you are a complex machine, and it does not change the fact that you experience what seems to be free will.

If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't.


When it comes to these matters, things are different depending on what perspective you look through.

Objectively, we have no free will, and everything is determined. Human beings are remarkably complex, especially compared to inanimate objects which have very limited reaction to outside stimuli and internal stimuli, and other forms of life, which are still limited in their reaction to outside and internal stimuli when compared to humans.

Subjectively, we have free will, and are capable of altering ourselves immensely. The idea that human beings are only set apart due to our complexity is repugnant to some, but very realistic, probable, and plausible.

To deny determinism is to say that there is an element of true chaos in actuality.. It is like saying that there is piece of the universe that can react to nothing, but effects everything else..

Even that element or force would have to be subject to its own laws, and for that reason, couldn't be truly chaotic.


Pondering the questions of both infinity and chaos will make your head asplode. They are both just as incomprehensible.. However, I find infinity easier to accept than true chaos. I'm still open to true chaos, though it would probably be impossible to convince me that it wasn't just our own ignorance that makes it seem chaotic.

I think I ruffled alfie's feathers!
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/30/2011 6:44:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Nah, this sort of thing lies outside the realms of science. However, It isn't as ridiculous as most people seem to think it is on first reaction.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
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3/30/2011 7:10:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 4:32:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Only a Determinist could possibly make an argument to the contrary, and even then, it's still possible for every man to be responsible for his own actions because he did them whether it was determined or not.

By definition, you could not say someone was responsible for something over which they had no ability to prevent. From the actual definition of the word :

"answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power, control, or management"

If there is no free will, then it is not within one's power, control or management, it just is that way.

Consider if you stood in front of a button and if you pressed that button it would kill the president. I then knocked you out and used your hand to press the button.

No sane person would say you were responsible - that is what determinism argues, you are always knocked out and someone is using your hand.
nonentity
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3/30/2011 7:26:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hitler and all the rest all share personal responsibility. I don't see how one absolves the other. I agree with Cosmic and personal responsibility exists whether or not free will exists. Can't expound---phone will die any time soon.
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/30/2011 7:43:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 7:10:26 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/30/2011 4:32:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Only a Determinist could possibly make an argument to the contrary, and even then, it's still possible for every man to be responsible for his own actions because he did them whether it was determined or not.

By definition, you could not say someone was responsible for something over which they had no ability to prevent. From the actual definition of the word :

"answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power, control, or management"

If there is no free will, then it is not within one's power, control or management, it just is that way.

Consider if you stood in front of a button and if you pressed that button it would kill the president. I then knocked you out and used your hand to press the button.

No sane person would say you were responsible - that is what determinism argues, you are always knocked out and someone is using your hand.

Only humans worry about whether someone is responsible or not. Ultimately it doesn't matter. To say that someone wasn't responsible makes as much sense as saying they were responsible.

One could argue that that collection of reactions that make you up are responsible..
One could argue that a part of that reaction is responsible..
One could argue that the reactions that lead up to the reactions that make you up are responsible.

You can ponder all day about it, or you can beat people in the head with crowbars for stealing your newspaper. Whatever the result, it was bound to happen anyway, and the event that happened is the one that most perfectly followed the law.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/30/2011 8:05:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
All I'm saying is that pinning down responsibility is pointless, because there are many different causes, and there is only one thing you can pin everything on.

Goddidit.

>.>

<.<
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
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3/30/2011 8:32:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 8:02:06 PM, nonentity wrote:
Nevermind, I don't agree with Cosmic lol.

Note there are those that believe in determinism and still advocate moral responsibility - they can do this because they also believe in free will.
nonentity
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3/30/2011 8:48:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 8:32:23 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/30/2011 8:02:06 PM, nonentity wrote:
Nevermind, I don't agree with Cosmic lol.

Note there are those that believe in determinism and still advocate moral responsibility - they can do this because they also believe in free will.

I don't really get how you can believe in determinism and free will... Compatibilism doesn't make any sense to me. I'm a determinist and I also believe in moral responsibility.