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Shari'a

Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/5/2011 5:21:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
One of my main presentations here will be put forth once I establish all the grounds of what is being asked for. Before I make a final post, I would like to find out if there is something more that people here ask for when it comes to the Islamic Law, or Shari'a. Suggestions are open and I will distinguish the new ones apart from the old.
Veridas
Posts: 733
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4/5/2011 6:43:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Here's one.

How come there are no abrogations denouncing the generally disagreeable aspects of Sharia law that don't come in the form of a questionally-sourced nine minute video, but you still try to classify them as "old" and "new" as if that somehow alleviates it's brutality, mercilessness and downright unjustifiable nature?

Oh, and while we're on the subject, if you're so sure of your religion's purity, why do you constantly seek to justify it?
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/5/2011 6:47:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thanks. Let me remind you that this thread is not for a discussion. And let me clarify that I am not ignoring the old questions, but merely saying that I will make it clear which ones are new and to be part of my presentation. Regarding the last part, I am not justifying the religion for myself here, but for others who paint it like "merciless brutality" and whatnot.
Veridas
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4/7/2011 6:56:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Didn't say it was for a discussion, you asked about stuff we want explained, that's what I want explained. Oh, and "painting" something as brutal when it's not is different from brutality abundant.

SO yeah, good luck with that.

Also, I didn't say the religion was one of merciless brutality, I was actually referring to several aspects of Sharia law in that instance, so thanks for that. Besides which, you seem pretty damn keen about this "presentation" and yet I fail to see what you hope to achieve from it. You must know that you aren't going to denounce the sources, and there are many, that show Islam to be at best easily manipulated by corrupt imams and at worst an intellectual stigma where murder is treated as a perfectly reasonable response to various crimes like, oh I don't know, being gay, for instance.

You must realise that presentation or nay, people will either seek the truth of Islam for themselves or they won't, those that do will find a history of violence, power-grabbing that continues to this day in particular parts of the world, those that don't simply won't.

SO perhaps I've missed something, perhaps this presentation isn't meant for us, perhaps it's not meant for anyone, but ultimately it has to be done because you feel it will serve a purpose. However, in the same way that a presentation by me about Atheism wouldn't sway you, a presentation about Islam from you wouldn't sway me, since I can't speak for anyone else really.

Actually there is one question I'd like to ask, irrelevant to the presentation itself. Modern Islam and it's beliefs were more or less kicked off by Mohammed, right? Before him Islam was a very different religion. So answer me this, considering that Islamic literature is written mostly by people who either happened to be Mohammed, or happened to be close to him, or happened to admire him, or generally weren't likely to contradict him...how do you know if Mohammed was right? What if Mohammed was just another guy who bumped his head once and saw things that weren't there? Worse, what if he was a liar? Nobody contradicts him because the guy's A: Powerful and B: Dangerous and C: Theoretically divinely inspired. However many people have made the claim to divine inspiration and frankly none of them stood up to much scrutiny.

Assuming Allah exists...what if he's not the divine creator, what if he's just the Moon God he was before Mo came along and started doing his thing? What if, simply by following Islam in this manner, you're gravely insulting a god that you know nothing about because you're choosing the guy that got stuck being the God of a ball of dust and rock?

This is not an attack on you or your faith, just a question. Considering that 99.99999999% of people seem to have no interaction with any divine power in their lifetime, and those that do are usually either provably wrong or existed during a time when we can't be sure, and those that fall into the latter always seem to be able to surrod themselves with writing impliments or people who like them know how to use impliments of writing (Lookin' at you, Jesus) which makes all sources relevant to it inherently biased to the point of uselessness.

How do you know that when you pray, and I'm gonna assume that it's often, you're not actually insulting the creator of mankind and the universe rather than worshipping him?
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/8/2011 2:02:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/7/2011 6:56:22 PM, Veridas wrote:
Didn't say it was for a discussion, you asked about stuff we want explained, that's what I want explained. Oh, and "painting" something as brutal when it's not is different from brutality abundant.

SO yeah, good luck with that.

Also, I didn't say the religion was one of merciless brutality, I was actually referring to several aspects of Sharia law in that instance, so thanks for that. Besides which, you seem pretty damn keen about this "presentation" and yet I fail to see what you hope to achieve from it. You must know that you aren't going to denounce the sources, and there are many, that show Islam to be at best easily manipulated by corrupt imams and at worst an intellectual stigma where murder is treated as a perfectly reasonable response to various crimes like, oh I don't know, being gay, for instance.

You must realise that presentation or nay, people will either seek the truth of Islam for themselves or they won't, those that do will find a history of violence, power-grabbing that continues to this day in particular parts of the world, those that don't simply won't.

SO perhaps I've missed something, perhaps this presentation isn't meant for us, perhaps it's not meant for anyone, but ultimately it has to be done because you feel it will serve a purpose. However, in the same way that a presentation by me about Atheism wouldn't sway you, a presentation about Islam from you wouldn't sway me, since I can't speak for anyone else really.

Actually there is one question I'd like to ask, irrelevant to the presentation itself. Modern Islam and it's beliefs were more or less kicked off by Mohammed, right? Before him Islam was a very different religion. So answer me this, considering that Islamic literature is written mostly by people who either happened to be Mohammed, or happened to be close to him, or happened to admire him, or generally weren't likely to contradict him...how do you know if Mohammed was right? What if Mohammed was just another guy who bumped his head once and saw things that weren't there? Worse, what if he was a liar? Nobody contradicts him because the guy's A: Powerful and B: Dangerous and C: Theoretically divinely inspired. However many people have made the claim to divine inspiration and frankly none of them stood up to much scrutiny.

Assuming Allah exists...what if he's not the divine creator, what if he's just the Moon God he was before Mo came along and started doing his thing? What if, simply by following Islam in this manner, you're gravely insulting a god that you know nothing about because you're choosing the guy that got stuck being the God of a ball of dust and rock?

This is not an attack on you or your faith, just a question. Considering that 99.99999999% of people seem to have no interaction with any divine power in their lifetime, and those that do are usually either provably wrong or existed during a time when we can't be sure, and those that fall into the latter always seem to be able to surrod themselves with writing impliments or people who like them know how to use impliments of writing (Lookin' at you, Jesus) which makes all sources relevant to it inherently biased to the point of uselessness.

How do you know that when you pray, and I'm gonna assume that it's often, you're not actually insulting the creator of mankind and the universe rather than worshipping him?
This thread is about Islamic Law, not the history or the validity of the religion. Do I force you to pray? No. Does Shari'a do that? No. Therefore this thread is not made for questions in that category.
Veridas
Posts: 733
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4/8/2011 5:54:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I did say it was irrelevant, but hey, if you can't answer the question...

Besides, I thought you welcomed honest questions about Islam?
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 12:06:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/8/2011 5:54:33 PM, Veridas wrote:
I did say it was irrelevant, but hey, if you can't answer the question...

Besides, I thought you welcomed honest questions about Islam?
This is about a societal topic, not the entire religion. I am not going off topic.
Grape
Posts: 989
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4/9/2011 1:11:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Are you going to attempt to defend Shari'a law with secular philosophy or are you defending it on theological grounds? If it's the second, than it is highly relevant whether God exists at all.
Cobo
Posts: 556
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4/9/2011 1:30:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What is Shari'a law exactly?
I have a basic rundown of it, but I would like to know the exacts.
Church of the BANHAMMER GODS priest
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/9/2011 1:39:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 1:30:44 PM, Cobo wrote:
What is Shari'a law exactly?
I have a basic rundown of it, but I would like to know the exacts.:

Muslim law. They're basically edicts of things that Allah allegedly frowns upon that given by Muhammad.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 2:44:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 12:39:21 PM, Sieben wrote:
Why should we care about Shari'a law if Islam isn't true

i.e. Islam is topical?
Because its truth will not be imposed on you.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 2:45:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 1:11:55 PM, Grape wrote:
Are you going to attempt to defend Shari'a law with secular philosophy or are you defending it on theological grounds? If it's the second, than it is highly relevant whether God exists at all.
Both. There are two perspectives on it.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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4/9/2011 2:50:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 2:44:10 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/9/2011 12:39:21 PM, Sieben wrote:
Why should we care about Shari'a law if Islam isn't true

i.e. Islam is topical?
Because its truth will not be imposed on you.

Oh dear lord. Grammar.

The only thing your response can mean is that Shari'a law will not be imposed on people. That's not very much of a law... you obviously didn't mean that. Like I said tho - grammar. Zzzz
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 2:53:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 2:50:12 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 4/9/2011 2:44:10 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/9/2011 12:39:21 PM, Sieben wrote:
Why should we care about Shari'a law if Islam isn't true

i.e. Islam is topical?
Because its truth will not be imposed on you.

Oh dear lord. Grammar.

The only thing your response can mean is that Shari'a law will not be imposed on people. That's not very much of a law... you obviously didn't mean that. Like I said tho - grammar. Zzzz
The thread is not about my grammar. If you wish to discuss it then dedicate another thread for my grammar, thanks.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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4/9/2011 2:57:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 2:53:45 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/9/2011 2:50:12 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 4/9/2011 2:44:10 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/9/2011 12:39:21 PM, Sieben wrote:
Why should we care about Shari'a law if Islam isn't true

i.e. Islam is topical?
Because its truth will not be imposed on you.

Oh dear lord. Grammar.

The only thing your response can mean is that Shari'a law will not be imposed on people. That's not very much of a law... you obviously didn't mean that. Like I said tho - grammar. Zzzz
The thread is not about my grammar. If you wish to discuss it then dedicate another thread for my grammar, thanks.

I can't tell what you mean if your grammar is bad. I just explained what your grammar implied though. Is that what you meant? That Shari'a law is not "imposed"?

What about islam being true/false? If islam were false would you still defend Shari'a law?

Please answer these questions. Don't get distracted by people pointing out your incompetence.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 3:05:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 2:57:44 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 4/9/2011 2:53:45 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/9/2011 2:50:12 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 4/9/2011 2:44:10 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/9/2011 12:39:21 PM, Sieben wrote:
Why should we care about Shari'a law if Islam isn't true

i.e. Islam is topical?
Because its truth will not be imposed on you.

Oh dear lord. Grammar.

The only thing your response can mean is that Shari'a law will not be imposed on people. That's not very much of a law... you obviously didn't mean that. Like I said tho - grammar. Zzzz
The thread is not about my grammar. If you wish to discuss it then dedicate another thread for my grammar, thanks.

I can't tell what you mean if your grammar is bad. I just explained what your grammar implied though. Is that what you meant? That Shari'a law is not "imposed"?

What about islam being true/false? If islam were false would you still defend Shari'a law?

Please answer these questions. Don't get distracted by people pointing out your incompetence.
Why do you not ask instead of drawing conclusions? How about "Is Islam being imposed the same as Shari'a being imposed? Shari'a being imposed means that non-Muslims have to become Muslims"? The grammar is perfect in that very short sentence. You not understanding the difference between imposing Islam and imposing Shari'a is pretty much a different issue than grammar. And, I do not think that "zzz" "trolol" and whatnot is a sign of competence either. Not even in comedy, sorry.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 3:48:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 3:31:49 PM, Grape wrote:
You have still not answered Sieben's questions. If Islam were false, would you still defend Shari'a law?
I do not know. If I were born in China, would I be on this site right now? Hypothetical questions are not easy to answer. I find Shari'a to be a just and good system for all people, not only Muslims, and I think that even if I were not a Muslim, I would favor the system. But I am not too sure, not is anyone else regarding such questions.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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4/9/2011 3:53:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 3:05:07 PM, Mirza wrote:

Why do you not ask instead of drawing conclusions?
I did ask, and then you answered with poor grammar. In case you didn't understand what your sentence meant, I explained its conclusion so that you could correct yourself.

How about "Is Islam being imposed the same as Shari'a being imposed?
No. This is not what I asked at all.

Shari'a being imposed means that non-Muslims have to become Muslims"? The grammar is perfect in that very short sentence. You not understanding the difference between imposing Islam and imposing Shari'a is pretty much a different issue than grammar.

Imposition of Islam was never brought up. You said that Sharia would not be imposed, which is kind of confusing because its supposed to be a law.

And, I do not think that "zzz" "trolol" and whatnot is a sign of competence either. Not even in comedy, sorry.

I'm just bored with you.
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Sieben
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4/9/2011 3:54:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 3:48:54 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/9/2011 3:31:49 PM, Grape wrote:
You have still not answered Sieben's questions. If Islam were false, would you still defend Shari'a law?
I do not know. If I were born in China, would I be on this site right now? Hypothetical questions are not easy to answer. I find Shari'a to be a just and good system for all people, not only Muslims, and I think that even if I were not a Muslim, I would favor the system. But I am not too sure, not is anyone else regarding such questions.

I'm not asking a hypothetical about YOU and YOUR preferences. I'm asking a logical question. Is Sharia logically separate from islam? Are you going to defend Sharia independently from Islam?

Its a relevant question because you said Islam wasn't topical. But if the only reason to believe in Sharia is because of Islam then it IS topical. Sorry.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 4:04:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 3:53:23 PM, Sieben wrote:
I did ask, and then you answered with poor grammar. In case you didn't understand what your sentence meant, I explained its conclusion so that you could correct yourself.
Make a separate thread and we will discuss the grammar.

No. This is not what I asked at all.
Did I say you asked, or did I suggest a question?

Imposition of Islam was never brought up. You said that Sharia would not be imposed, which is kind of confusing because its supposed to be a law.
I never said that.

I'm just bored with you.
And everyone else you discuss (rant) with.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 4:06:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 3:54:47 PM, Sieben wrote:
I'm not asking a hypothetical about YOU and YOUR preferences. I'm asking a logical question. Is Sharia logically separate from islam? Are you going to defend Sharia independently from Islam?

Its a relevant question because you said Islam wasn't topical. But if the only reason to believe in Sharia is because of Islam then it IS topical. Sorry.
Did I answer you or did I answer Grape? Leave it to the one I answer. He can handle a discussion. Islam not being topical is a misnomer. It is obviously topical, but not everything about it. Clearly Shari'a has nothing to do with the Islamic viewpoint on Paradise or something like that.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/9/2011 4:07:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The thread is still open for questions. Continue your babble in another thread please. I am not replying to your (Sieben) rant anymore in this thread.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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4/9/2011 4:56:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You have nothing to say. Your comprehension of language is so poor that you can't answer simple questions about a topic you're supposed to be familiar with.

Good job trying to make an educational thread though. You must think its like your spiritual duty to reach out to the non-believers. Thank you for gracing us with you presence.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/9/2011 5:26:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I find Shari'a to be a just and good system for all people, not only Muslims, and I think that even if I were not a Muslim, I would favor the system. But I am not too sure, not is anyone else regarding such questions.:

Given the hypothetical nature of the question, I think that's probably the most honest of an answer possible. Be that as it may, what about Shari'a do you find just?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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4/9/2011 5:50:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 5:26:55 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I find Shari'a to be a just and good system for all people, not only Muslims, and I think that even if I were not a Muslim, I would favor the system. But I am not too sure, not is anyone else regarding such questions.:

Given the hypothetical nature of the question, I think that's probably the most honest of an answer possible. Be that as it may, what about Shari'a do you find just?

The part where they prohibit interest on loans, require you to eat and drink with your right hand, and never eat pork.

If I see anyone doing those things... boy I'll throw em in sharia jail with my sharia nun-chucks.

(I know nun-chucks would not have been part of traditional sharia law, but due to modern transportation one can acquire manufactured goods from the far east)
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Veridas
Posts: 733
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4/9/2011 5:50:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 12:06:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/8/2011 5:54:33 PM, Veridas wrote:
I did say it was irrelevant, but hey, if you can't answer the question...

Besides, I thought you welcomed honest questions about Islam?
This is about a societal topic, not the entire religion. I am not going off topic.

It's only societal if Sharia is employed outside of Islamic states. SInce it's an Islamic law, and therefore a theological law, it's religious.
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/9/2011 5:56:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The part where they prohibit interest on loans, require you to eat and drink with your right hand, and never eat pork.

If I see anyone doing those things... boy I'll throw em in sharia jail with my sharia nun-chucks.

(I know nun-chucks would not have been part of traditional sharia law, but due to modern transportation one can acquire manufactured goods from the far east):

I think the really just part of Shari'a is burying women who were raped up to their head and then stoning them to the death.

What would it make all the more just is burying raped women up to their head and then nun-chucking them to death.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)