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Sense of Self

Rockylightning
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4/12/2011 10:15:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What is the sense of self? Some say it is personally "programmed" by god. Others that it is a mixture of brain fluids and electric currents, or a dream. Or even a flicker of consciousness of something unknown.

What is it that is in all of us?

Ideas?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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4/12/2011 11:22:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We are complex organic machines.

We experience reality through our brain's operating system.

Life, or anything that is able to perceive experience would be the same thing.

For some reason, the forces of the universe combined in such a way over presumably a very long period of time to create life. Life is a more complex interaction of the same laws and forces that you see on a cosmic and microscopic scale.

The experience of reality, in a way, is like another universe contained within the existing universe, or actuality. Reality is like a bubble over actuality, it is almost something entirely new, but if we could step outside of reality, in actuality, we are still just a complex reaction of laws and forces. Compared to inanimate objects, such as a rock, life is made up of a significantly higher amount of different interacting forces.

Think of music, how there are notes.. and harmonies are made up of many notes being played at the same time. A rock would be like a single note playing. It makes one note every time a force acts on it. Life would be like a multiple notes playing everytime a force acts on it.

Complex life is built in such a way that not only do outside forces act on it, but forces that are built into it act on it too. The more complex the life, the more dissonant and complex the music contained within. Human are filled with a complex harmony that is always reacting with itself, and changing.

At our very core, there is that one note, but there is so much built on top that it is hard to get to that one note.

Grab a hold of something, and feel it. Contemplate the various reactions that go on in your body and mind as you just feel that one thing. Realize that what your body feels interacts with your mind, and what your mind feels interacts with your body. Everything that is going on is effecting something else.

Yet, even something like a rock.. going back to a rock being 1 note. If you are familiar with acoustical theory, you realize that even 1 note is actually made up of many different notes, called "overtones". This is why a flute sounds different than an oboe, even if they are playing the same note. You can even break a note down further.

Reality is what is built off of actuality. We can only experience reality, but the two worlds are very closely intertwined. Reality could not exist without actuality, and actuality would be unknown without reality.

*vanishes in a pseudo-mystical puff of smoke*
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/12/2011 11:34:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Our sense of self, sense of existence, is what we feel just by being conscience.

What causes it is unknown. Hence why we can't knowingly create things with a sense of self existence - sentience.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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4/12/2011 11:56:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/12/2011 11:34:25 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Our sense of self, sense of existence, is what we feel just by being conscience.

What causes it is unknown. Hence why we can't knowingly create things with a sense of self existence - sentience.

I think it is easy to see that the sense of self (the mind I'll call it) simply uses the brain as a tool to perceive and think. A mind without a brain would be a non perceiving, non thinking entity. Thus, a mind uses what it is given. Addressing your second sentence, suppose we created a synthetic human (ITS ALIIIVE) yes, we would not know if it had a mind. If we were omniscientand we figured out it had a mind then the theory would be that the creation of a mind coincides with the creation of a brain. If the zombie had no mind and just reacted to everything like a computer (although we couldnt tell) the theory would be that the mind is created by some deity.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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4/13/2011 12:00:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/12/2011 11:22:17 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
We are complex organic machines....too long to fit in quote

1. I get the whole note thing. Good job explaining.
2. what does psuedo(something) mean?
3. I also have stuff on newgrounds. I'll link it onto your profile once I get onto a computer.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/13/2011 12:09:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/12/2011 11:56:48 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/12/2011 11:34:25 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Our sense of self, sense of existence, is what we feel just by being conscience.

What causes it is unknown. Hence why we can't knowingly create things with a sense of self existence - sentience.

I think it is easy to see that the sense of self (the mind I'll call it) simply uses the brain as a tool to perceive and think. A mind without a brain would be a non perceiving, non thinking entity. Thus, a mind uses what it is given.
It uses the brain as a tool to exist and function. A Mind without a Brain couldn't exist.

With this said the mind is a entity independent from the Brain. The Mind-Brain transcendence is not understood by neurology and is wonder of biology.
Addressing your second sentence, suppose we created a synthetic human (ITS ALIIIVE) yes, we would not know if it had a mind.
If we were omniscientand we figured out it had a mind then the theory would be that the creation of a mind coincides with the creation of a brain. If the zombie had no mind and just reacted to everything like a computer (although we couldnt tell) the theory would be that the mind is created by some deity.
Free will, emotion and self determination are the signs of the mind. - see the writings of Isaac Asimov, Descartes and La Mettrie.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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4/13/2011 12:57:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 12:00:13 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
2. what does psuedo(something) mean?

It means that even though the cloud appears to be mystical, there is nothing mystical about it.

It is merely an illusion created by the man in order to keep you down.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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4/13/2011 1:46:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/12/2011 10:15:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
What is the sense of self? Some say it is personally "programmed" by god. Others that it is a mixture of brain fluids and electric currents, or a dream. Or even a flicker of consciousness of something unknown.

What is it that is in all of us?

Ideas?

An emergent property that supervenes on brain activity.

Oh, and inb4 popculturepooka ;)
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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4/13/2011 9:16:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 1:46:14 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 4/12/2011 10:15:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
What is the sense of self? Some say it is personally "programmed" by god. Others that it is a mixture of brain fluids and electric currents, or a dream. Or even a flicker of consciousness of something unknown.

What is it that is in all of us?

Ideas?

An emergent property that supervenes on brain activity.

Oh, and inb4 popculturepooka ;)

That seems too simple though....

If it comes with brainpower, which is electric pulses and flowing chemicals, wouldnt anything with electrical pulses and flowing chemicals have a mind?
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sense of self is reliant on memory. If you lack the capabilities for short- and long-term memory you can't have a sense of self.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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4/13/2011 6:24:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM, nonentity wrote:
Sense of self is reliant on memory. If you lack the capabilities for short- and long-term memory you can't have a sense of self.

Expand?
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 6:24:24 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM, nonentity wrote:
Sense of self is reliant on memory. If you lack the capabilities for short- and long-term memory you can't have a sense of self.

Expand?

If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self. So my thoughts are that, without long- and short-term memory, you can't have a sense of self.

You need to be able to remember who you are based on prior experience with yourself in relation to the rest of the world.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/13/2011 8:34:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 6:24:24 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM, nonentity wrote:
Sense of self is reliant on memory. If you lack the capabilities for short- and long-term memory you can't have a sense of self.

Expand?

If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self. So my thoughts are that, without long- and short-term memory, you can't have a sense of self.

You need to be able to remember who you are based on prior experience with yourself in relation to the rest of the world.

To clarify, I believe the sense of self is a compilation of memories of you in relation to the world. That's why people can change. They 'lose' and 'acquire' new memories, and modify their sense of self accordingly. And when you significantly lose memories, you become disoriented.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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4/13/2011 8:46:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 9:16:34 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 1:46:14 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 4/12/2011 10:15:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
What is the sense of self? Some say it is personally "programmed" by god. Others that it is a mixture of brain fluids and electric currents, or a dream. Or even a flicker of consciousness of something unknown.

What is it that is in all of us?

Ideas?

An emergent property that supervenes on brain activity.

Oh, and inb4 popculturepooka ;)


That seems too simple though....

If it comes with brainpower, which is electric pulses and flowing chemicals, wouldnt anything with electrical pulses and flowing chemicals have a mind?

1. Modo hoc fallacy. It's not just electrical impulses and flowing chemicals, it's the way they are arranged that produces emergent properties.

2. I don't know if anything besides humans and other complex animals have minds. Technically, I don't even know if you have a mind.

3. I think it's safe to say that artificial intelligence is, in principle, possible, though it almost certainly won't be developed within my life time.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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4/13/2011 10:16:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:46:54 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 4/13/2011 9:16:34 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 1:46:14 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 4/12/2011 10:15:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
What is the sense of self? Some say it is personally "programmed" by god. Others that it is a mixture of brain fluids and electric currents, or a dream. Or even a flicker of consciousness of something unknown.

What is it that is in all of us?

Ideas?

An emergent property that supervenes on brain activity.

Oh, and inb4 popculturepooka ;)


That seems too simple though....

If it comes with brainpower, which is electric pulses and flowing chemicals, wouldnt anything with electrical pulses and flowing chemicals have a mind?

1. Modo hoc fallacy. It's not just electrical impulses and flowing chemicals, it's the way they are arranged that produces emergent properties.

2. I don't know if anything besides humans and other complex animals have minds. Technically, I don't even know if you have a mind.

3. I think it's safe to say that artificial intelligence is, in principle, possible, though it almost certainly won't be developed within my life time.

1. Yeah.....

2. As I stated, if they do have a mind, it would probably be limited by the lack of brainpower at its command. Technically, I don't even know if anyone has a mind.

3. This would only be safe to say if we knew what a mind was.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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4/13/2011 11:01:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:34:49 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 6:24:24 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM, nonentity wrote:: : If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self. So my thoughts are that, without long- and short-term memory, you can't have a sense of self.

You need to be able to remember who you are based on prior experience with yourself in relation to the rest of the world.

To clarify, I believe the sense of self is a compilation of memories of you in relation to the world. That's why people can change. They 'lose' and 'acquire' new memories, and modify their sense of self accordingly. And when you significantly lose memories, you become disoriented.

This.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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4/14/2011 10:32:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 11:05:14 PM, nonentity wrote:
YAY WE AGREE ON SOMETHING! *High five!*

Haha! *High Five*
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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4/14/2011 11:10:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:34:49 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 6:24:24 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM, nonentity wrote:
Sense of self is reliant on memory. If you lack the capabilities for short- and long-term memory you can't have a sense of self.

Expand?

If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self. So my thoughts are that, without long- and short-term memory, you can't have a sense of self.

You need to be able to remember who you are based on prior experience with yourself in relation to the rest of the world.

To clarify, I believe the sense of self is a compilation of memories of you in relation to the world. That's why people can change. They 'lose' and 'acquire' new memories, and modify their sense of self accordingly. And when you significantly lose memories, you become disoriented.

It cannot be simply a collection of memories. Otherwise, a simple recording device can keep track of events over time and could be said to have acquired a "sense of self". It's what you do with those memories, which leads us back to the original question. What is it that analyzes those memories?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/14/2011 11:19:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 11:10:17 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/13/2011 8:34:49 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 6:24:24 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM, nonentity wrote:
Sense of self is reliant on memory. If you lack the capabilities for short- and long-term memory you can't have a sense of self.

Expand?

If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self. So my thoughts are that, without long- and short-term memory, you can't have a sense of self.

You need to be able to remember who you are based on prior experience with yourself in relation to the rest of the world.

To clarify, I believe the sense of self is a compilation of memories of you in relation to the world. That's why people can change. They 'lose' and 'acquire' new memories, and modify their sense of self accordingly. And when you significantly lose memories, you become disoriented.

It cannot be simply a collection of memories. Otherwise, a simple recording device can keep track of events over time and could be said to have acquired a "sense of self". It's what you do with those memories, which leads us back to the original question. What is it that analyzes those memories?

For your analogy to work, a recording device would have to keep track of events in relation to itself, and be able to retreive and organize those memories at will...
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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4/14/2011 12:44:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 11:19:22 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/14/2011 11:10:17 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/13/2011 8:34:49 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 6:24:24 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
At 4/13/2011 10:28:40 AM, nonentity wrote:
Sense of self is reliant on memory. If you lack the capabilities for short- and long-term memory you can't have a sense of self.

Expand?

If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self. So my thoughts are that, without long- and short-term memory, you can't have a sense of self.

You need to be able to remember who you are based on prior experience with yourself in relation to the rest of the world.

To clarify, I believe the sense of self is a compilation of memories of you in relation to the world. That's why people can change. They 'lose' and 'acquire' new memories, and modify their sense of self accordingly. And when you significantly lose memories, you become disoriented.

It cannot be simply a collection of memories. Otherwise, a simple recording device can keep track of events over time and could be said to have acquired a "sense of self". It's what you do with those memories, which leads us back to the original question. What is it that analyzes those memories?

For your analogy to work, a recording device would have to keep track of events in relation to itself, and be able to retreive and organize those memories at will...

The italicized phrase means nothing but self-awareness. You were arguing that a collection of memories is what creats a sense of self. But then you say that the collection of memories should be used by a self-aware entity.....wait.....what?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/14/2011 9:41:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 12:44:25 PM, Indophile wrote:

The italicized phrase means nothing but self-awareness. You were arguing that a collection of memories is what creats a sense of self.

And I said a bunch of other things, too.

But then you say that the collection of memories should be used by a self-aware entity.....wait.....what?

A recording is not a memory. "In psychology, memory is an organism's ability to store, retain, and recall information and experiences". http://en.wikipedia.org...

A machine cannot choose to recall "experiences".
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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4/14/2011 10:26:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 9:41:59 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/14/2011 12:44:25 PM, Indophile wrote:

The italicized phrase means nothing but self-awareness. You were arguing that a collection of memories is what creats a sense of self.

And I said a bunch of other things, too.

Yes, you said things about remembering who we were. I could've been a doctor but maybe I forgot that I was. Does that mean I have lost my'self'? I'm not self-aware anymore?

But then you say that the collection of memories should be used by a self-aware entity.....wait.....what?

A recording is not a memory. "In psychology, memory is an organism's ability to store, retain, and recall information and experiences". http://en.wikipedia.org...

A machine cannot choose to recall "experiences".

A memory is triggered by an input. From the outside world. That input could be a button pressed on a machine. Google has no problems in "storing, retaining and recalling information", as you say. Experiences are just another form of information. The only thing different between us and them machines is that we are self-aware. That is apart from any memories that we may or may not have.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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4/14/2011 11:10:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 10:26:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/14/2011 9:41:59 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/14/2011 12:44:25 PM, Indophile wrote:

The italicized phrase means nothing but self-awareness. You were arguing that a collection of memories is what creats a sense of self.

And I said a bunch of other things, too.

Yes, you said things about remembering who we were. I could've been a doctor but maybe I forgot that I was. Does that mean I have lost my'self'? I'm not self-aware anymore?

It means you've lost part of your memory and in extension, part of yourself as well. However, you have not ceased to be self-aware simply because you cannot recall a part of your life. You are different, not dead.

But then you say that the collection of memories should be used by a self-aware entity.....wait.....what?

A recording is not a memory. "In psychology, memory is an organism's ability to store, retain, and recall information and experiences". http://en.wikipedia.org...

A machine cannot choose to recall "experiences".

A memory is triggered by an input. From the outside world. That input could be a button pressed on a machine. Google has no problems in "storing, retaining and recalling information", as you say. Experiences are just another form of information. The only thing different between us and them machines is that we are self-aware. That is apart from any memories that we may or may not have.

Once again, your analogy fails. Google cannot recall its information of its own accord -- it has to be programmed to do so by a human. Hurr durr.

Part of being self-aware is retaining who you are such as thoughts, experiences and actions. This is better summed up as having a MEMORY of who you are and so on. To be self-aware, you have to "retain, store and recall" information about yourself... That sounds familiar, yes? :P
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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4/15/2011 12:10:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 11:10:54 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 10:26:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/14/2011 9:41:59 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/14/2011 12:44:25 PM, Indophile wrote:

The italicized phrase means nothing but self-awareness. You were arguing that a collection of memories is what creats a sense of self.

And I said a bunch of other things, too.

Yes, you said things about remembering who we were. I could've been a doctor but maybe I forgot that I was. Does that mean I have lost my'self'? I'm not self-aware anymore?

It means you've lost part of your memory and in extension, part of yourself as well. However, you have not ceased to be self-aware simply because you cannot recall a part of your life. You are different, not dead.

Well, that was the argument that I was making.

But then you say that the collection of memories should be used by a self-aware entity.....wait.....what?

A recording is not a memory. "In psychology, memory is an organism's ability to store, retain, and recall information and experiences". http://en.wikipedia.org...

A machine cannot choose to recall "experiences".

A memory is triggered by an input. From the outside world. That input could be a button pressed on a machine. Google has no problems in "storing, retaining and recalling information", as you say. Experiences are just another form of information. The only thing different between us and them machines is that we are self-aware. That is apart from any memories that we may or may not have.

Once again, your analogy fails. Google cannot recall its information of its own accord -- it has to be programmed to do so by a human. Hurr durr.

And we are self-programmed, I take it. That's the difference between us and Google?

Part of being self-aware is retaining who you are such as thoughts, experiences and actions. This is better summed up as having a MEMORY of who you are and so on. To be self-aware, you have to "retain, store and recall" information about yourself... That sounds familiar, yes? :P

There is this sense of self, where in we can identify that the person in the mirror is me. If this identification can be made, are we self-aware? If so, why do we need any memory and recall information about ourself? If not, then what you are talking about is the sum total of our experiences that we can retain, store and recall and makes not an iota of difference as to the person in the mirror.

If you think of an analogy, chimpanzees can identify themselves in the mirror and so can dolphins and elephants, I think. Are they not self-aware? Elephants can retain, store and recall, etc. And they can remember. So they are self-aware according to your definition. So then why is our self-awareness of a higher degree than them? There has to be something other than just "retaining, recalling and storing" information and experiences pertaining to our"selves".
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
burningpuppies101
Posts: 1,268
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4/15/2011 2:15:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/12/2011 10:15:28 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
What is the sense of self? Some say it is personally "programmed" by god. Others that it is a mixture of brain fluids and electric currents, or a dream. Or even a flicker of consciousness of something unknown.

What is it that is in all of us?

Ideas?

Does it matter? Not all grammatically correct statements need answers. We have it, we use it, there's no way to argue about it.

My 2 cents.
Omnes te moriturum amant 

http://www.debate.org...
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/15/2011 9:47:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/15/2011 12:10:48 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/14/2011 11:10:54 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 10:26:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/14/2011 9:41:59 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/14/2011 12:44:25 PM, Indophile wrote:

The italicized phrase means nothing but self-awareness. You were arguing that a collection of memories is what creats a sense of self.

And I said a bunch of other things, too.

Yes, you said things about remembering who we were. I could've been a doctor but maybe I forgot that I was. Does that mean I have lost my'self'? I'm not self-aware anymore?

It means you've lost part of your memory and in extension, part of yourself as well. However, you have not ceased to be self-aware simply because you cannot recall a part of your life. You are different, not dead.

Well, that was the argument that I was making.


Then you ignored what I said here:

At 4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM, nonentity wrote:

If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self.

and here:

At 4/13/2011 8:34:49 PM, nonentity wrote:
That's why people can change. They 'lose' and 'acquire' new memories, and modify their sense of self accordingly. And when you significantly lose memories, you become disoriented.
Indophile
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4/15/2011 10:03:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/15/2011 9:47:01 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/15/2011 12:10:48 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/14/2011 11:10:54 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 4/14/2011 10:26:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 4/14/2011 9:41:59 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/14/2011 12:44:25 PM, Indophile wrote:

The italicized phrase means nothing but self-awareness. You were arguing that a collection of memories is what creats a sense of self.

And I said a bunch of other things, too.

Yes, you said things about remembering who we were. I could've been a doctor but maybe I forgot that I was. Does that mean I have lost my'self'? I'm not self-aware anymore?

It means you've lost part of your memory and in extension, part of yourself as well. However, you have not ceased to be self-aware simply because you cannot recall a part of your life. You are different, not dead.

Well, that was the argument that I was making.


Then you ignored what I said here:

At 4/13/2011 7:33:06 PM, nonentity wrote:

If you lose your sense of short- or long-term memory to the point that you are unable to orient yourself with the rest of the world (ie. through head trauma, seizures, dissociation, or Alzheimer's) you lose your sense of self.

By lose your sense of self do you mean they are not self-aware? Otherwise, it'd be just as Ann said. You are different, not dead.

and here:

At 4/13/2011 8:34:49 PM, nonentity wrote:
That's why people can change. They 'lose' and 'acquire' new memories, and modify their sense of self accordingly. And when you significantly lose memories, you become disoriented.

Yes, because I was arguing that just memories are not what define the self. So, it doesn't matter if you lose your memory or become disoriented. You are still a self-aware human being, albeit one who doesn't remember the past clearly.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.