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moral atheist

truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 5:26:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I want to know if any value morality and if so why?
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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4/13/2011 5:36:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:26:01 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
I want to know if any value morality and if so why?

Moral nihilist. Although if there were an objective form of right and wrong I would highly value it.
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truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 5:46:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:38:53 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'm an atheist and I value morality. I also believe in objective morality; I just don't believe it comes from God.

Thank you for responding but you did not ans. part 2. why should you be moral what is the point what is the gain what is the motive?
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 5:47:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:36:04 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:26:01 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
I want to know if any value morality and if so why?

Moral nihilist. Although if there were an objective form of right and wrong I would highly value it.

please elaborate on why you would be moral.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/13/2011 5:51:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:46:50 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:38:53 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'm an atheist and I value morality. I also believe in objective morality; I just don't believe it comes from God.

Thank you for responding but you did not ans. part 2. why should you be moral what is the point what is the gain what is the motive?:

The same reason animals exhibit herd behavior or altruism. It's advantageous to survival.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/13/2011 5:54:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:46:50 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:38:53 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'm an atheist and I value morality. I also believe in objective morality; I just don't believe it comes from God.

Thank you for responding but you did not ans. part 2. why should you be moral what is the point what is the gain what is the motive?

Oh, sorry!

Why should I be moral? Because I would like to be treated a certain way and can only expect that if I treat others a certain way.

For example, no one likes being lied to. I would like for people to be honest with me. In return, I am a very honest person. I cannot expect of someone something I would not do myself. I prefer to engage with people who have some sense of morality. Their behaviour is more conducive to me and it is more predictable (in general).

Another example is that I would prefer that others believe that murder is wrong, because I would not like to be murdered. For that, I need to also believe that murder is wrong and not do it.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 6:25:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:51:35 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:46:50 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:38:53 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'm an atheist and I value morality. I also believe in objective morality; I just don't believe it comes from God.

Thank you for responding but you did not ans. part 2. why should you be moral what is the point what is the gain what is the motive?:

The same reason animals exhibit herd behavior or altruism. It's advantageous to survival.

So if I understand you correctly on an individual level there is no reason to be moral rather only on a social level. is this what you believe?
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 6:50:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:54:33 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:46:50 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:38:53 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'm an atheist and I value morality. I also believe in objective morality; I just don't believe it comes from God.

Thank you for responding but you did not ans. part 2. why should you be moral what is the point what is the gain what is the motive?

Oh, sorry!

Why should I be moral? Because I would like to be treated a certain way and can only expect that if I treat others a certain way.

For example, no one likes being lied to. I would like for people to be honest with me. In return, I am a very honest person. I cannot expect of someone something I would not do myself. I prefer to engage with people who have some sense of morality. Their behaviour is more conducive to me and it is more predictable (in general).

Another example is that I would prefer that others believe that murder is wrong, because I would not like to be murdered. For that, I need to also believe that murder is wrong and not do it.

According to my understanding of your position if no one finds out that you committed the act. there is no reason to be moral. in a situation where no one will find out there is no morality. If so I think this is not morality (ie. a standard of right and wrong) rather simple practical common sense, don't get on peoples bad side. This is not a standard of right and wrong but rather to protect yourself from others and keep on there good side of society. Am I understanding your position correctly?
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/13/2011 7:28:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 6:50:29 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:

According to my understanding of your position if no one finds out that you committed the act. there is no reason to be moral. in a situation where no one will find out there is no morality. If so I think this is not morality (ie. a standard of right and wrong) rather simple practical common sense, don't get on peoples bad side. This is not a standard of right and wrong but rather to protect yourself from others and keep on there good side of society. Am I understanding your position correctly?

Ah, no...

If a wife slips a little bit of poison into her husband's drink everyday without him knowing and he dies, just because he didn't know about it doesn't make her any less morally responsible. The reason to be moral is that there are things I would rather not have done to me. Whether or not a person can get away with it is irrelevant.

I act morally because I choose to and because I believe it is the right thing to do---not because of some invisible force threatening me to eternal damnation.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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4/13/2011 7:43:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:47:51 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:36:04 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:26:01 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
I want to know if any value morality and if so why?

Moral nihilist. Although if there were an objective form of right and wrong I would highly value it.

please elaborate on why you would be moral.

Why would a Christian be moral? Anything you do, you can simply ask for repentance for. Since you believe in eternal afterlife, why would you have any value at all in mortal life? An atheist who does not believe in any sort of reincarnation or afterlife, and believes we cease to be when we die, would inherently have a much higher value on life than someone who believes in eternal life. If life is finite, then it is a rare and precious thing; if life is infinite, then days and time are in infinite supply and there is no value in any one day nor life.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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4/13/2011 7:50:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 7:43:33 PM, PervRat wrote:

Why would a Christian be moral? Anything you do, you can simply ask for repentance for. Since you believe in eternal afterlife, why would you have any value at all in mortal life? An atheist who does not believe in any sort of reincarnation or afterlife, and believes we cease to be when we die, would inherently have a much higher value on life than someone who believes in eternal life. If life is finite, then it is a rare and precious thing; if life is infinite, then days and time are in infinite supply and there is no value in any one day nor life.

Well put, mon ami.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 7:58:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To non entity. the morality you speak of is not logical or rational it is cultural indoctrination. If the wife wants to kill her husband is there any logical rational reason not to. with regard to the reason you gave "The reason to be moral is that there are things I would rather not have done to me. Whether or not a person can get away with it is irrelevant." On that I ask if no one finds out that you did the immoral act how will it affect how others treat you?
Lastly I'm slightly confused about your last comment it seems to me that it is a second reason and I will assume so and treat it that way if I have error ed please correct me. you write : I act morally because I choose to and because I believe it is the right thing to do---not because of some invisible force threatening me to eternal damnation. 1st of all you made the fatal mistake of writing that you choose according to atheism there is no free will. 2ndof all that is not a reason but rather a means. lastly you write bec. its the right thing to do. what makes it right?
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 8:07:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To perv rat although I am not familiar with the rules of Christianity, I know Jewish law and presumably that is what the Christians will use the ans. according to Judaism is that if you sin with intention to repent you cannot repent that easily. As to why value current life the ans. is that current life is a means to the ultimate after life. lastly you are missing the point why would an atheist care about moral what diff. is there if its precious or not if I want the other person dead why not kill him so long no one finds out. And a believer has infinitely strong reason not to kill . god said not to. and it will result in ultimate punishment.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
nonentity
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4/13/2011 8:09:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 7:58:29 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
To non entity. the morality you speak of is not logical or rational it is cultural indoctrination. If the wife wants to kill her husband is there any logical rational reason not to.

The wife would rather not be secretly poisoned. If that is the case, then she should not do it to anyone else. Logically, she cannot expect to not be poisoned, if she is secretly doing it.

with regard to the reason you gave "The reason to be moral is that there are things I would rather not have done to me. Whether or not a person can get away with it is irrelevant." On that I ask if no one finds out that you did the immoral act how will it affect how others treat you?

If no one finds out about it, it won't affect the way they treat me. Why does that make it less immoral?

Lastly I'm slightly confused about your last comment it seems to me that it is a second reason and I will assume so and treat it that way if I have error ed please correct me. you write : I act morally because I choose to and because I believe it is the right thing to do---not because of some invisible force threatening me to eternal damnation. 1st of all you made the fatal mistake of writing that you choose according to atheism there is no free will.

Nope, that's determinism. The only thing atheism does is deny the existence of God.

2ndof all that is not a reason but rather a means.

How so? [insert Pervrat's post here]

lastly you write bec. its the right thing to do. what makes it right?

Like I said---what makes it right is that I would not act in a way that I would not have other people act. You asked why one should behave morally as an atheist, not whether objective morality exists. All I have to do to answer your OP is why I choose to act morally. And the reason is that I would not do to someone else what I would not have done to me.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/13/2011 8:10:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 7:28:32 PM, nonentity wrote:

The reason to be moral is that there are things I would rather not have done to me. Whether or not a person can get away with it is irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant. By the first statement, if your actions were never held against you then you would have no reason to be moral.
nonentity
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4/13/2011 8:11:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:07:56 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
To perv rat although I am not familiar with the rules of Christianity, I know Jewish law and presumably that is what the Christians will use the ans. according to Judaism is that if you sin with intention to repent you cannot repent that easily. As to why value current life the ans. is that current life is a means to the ultimate after life. lastly you are missing the point why would an atheist care about moral what diff. is there if its precious or not if I want the other person dead why not kill him so long no one finds out.

Even if no one finds out, you have still committed the act of murder and, by doing so, are implying that it is okay for someone to do the same to you.

And a believer has infinitely strong reason not to kill . god said not to. and it will result in ultimate punishment.

Funny, that Christians believe in free will.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/13/2011 8:14:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So if I understand you correctly on an individual level there is no reason to be moral rather only on a social level. is this what you believe?:

I'm saying altruism and morality appear to correlate with intelligence. Altruism is seen in mammals and the higher the intelligence, the greater the capacity for altruism appears.

Gorilla's nurturing an unconscious boy, dog's pulling other dog's to safety, dolphins saving drowning victims, etc.

I am saying this phenomena is not unique to humans.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
nonentity
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4/13/2011 8:18:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:10:22 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 4/13/2011 7:28:32 PM, nonentity wrote:

The reason to be moral is that there are things I would rather not have done to me. Whether or not a person can get away with it is irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant. By the first statement, if your actions were never held against you then you would have no reason to be moral.

Then you misunderstand my first statement. I don't mean that there are things I'd rather people not do in retaliation to me. What I mean is that there are things I would rather not have done to me, period. And if I believe it is okay to do it to someone else, then I should believe it is okay to be done to me. By me behaving in a way that I would not have done to me, regardless of whether I would get caught or not, is completely contradictory.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/13/2011 8:33:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
why would an atheist care about moral what diff. is there if its precious or not if I want the other person dead why not kill him so long no one finds out.:

Because we have a little something called 'law' that prevents it. See, your justification in the absence of a clearly defined ethic is to jump to a massive assumption -- namely, that God said so. That's called a "God of the Gaps" theory, and it just so happens to be a logical fallacy.

And a believer has infinitely strong reason not to kill . god said not to. and it will result in ultimate punishment.:

Correction: A collection of writings alleges to speak on behalf of God, said it's wrong to unjustly kill. Strangely, though, rules against unjust killings have been written long before any book of the bible was penned.

Secondly, the man who supposedly coined the phrase, "Thou shalt not commit murder," in fact committed murder, according to the bible. He killed an Egyptian man and then buried the corpse in sand in an attempt to hide his crime.

So, where is 'ole Moses now? Because according to you, it's very difficult for Jews to repent. How much worse is it for the man who is supposed to be God's mouthpiece when he's a hypocrite? Is Moses in heaven or hell?

Jesus, in the book of Luke, commanded his disciples to bring people who did not believe in his magical powers, and slay them before him. What happened to turning the other cheek?

In various books of the bible, God commands that little babies of the enemies of the Israelites be smashed on rocks. The babies offense? They just so happened to belong to a rival sect.

So.... You were saying something about murder and God. Please continue.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
nonentity
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4/13/2011 8:39:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:33:34 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:

So.... You were saying something about murder and God. Please continue.

You kill me. Be nice :)
darkkermit
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4/13/2011 8:52:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
religious people are more likely to commit violent crime
atheists are less likely to give to charity.

Although correlation does not equal causation. The middle class are the least likely to give to charity. In terms of percent of income: the poor give the most, then the rich, and finally the middle class.

While religious people tend to be poorer. The poor are more likely to commit violent crime.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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4/13/2011 8:55:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I always find arguments over morality to be condescending and fundamentally ignorant.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
JustinChains
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4/13/2011 10:17:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The reason for being a moral being lies in the fact that all being are created with some form of intelligence, emotions, intuitive abilities, and a sense of right or wrong. The efficiency of recognizing and determining this sense of right or wrong correlates directly with the efficiency of the being in using it's intelligence, emotions, and intuitive abilities to make decisions or choices.

It is intelligent to be moral in respects to the survival of the being, because the majority of beings are in contact with other beings, beings that in the majority do not want harm or losses to come their way. Because the majority of beings does not want harm or losses to come their way, they will act in a manner which does not provoke harm or losses to come their way. Since the effect of acting immorally would provoke another being to act immorally in response, the being will choose to act morally in order to provoke a moral response. Because of this reality, the being in question will choose to act morally in order to provoke moral responses, which in turn allows the being to survive longer.

The above explanation provides reasoning for being moral as it applies in the respect of survival.

In the respect of acting moral because of a beings personal beliefs, desires, and/or emotions would be as follows...

A being acts moral in the context of personal beliefs, desires, and/or emotions because of it's ability to determine what "feels" right or wrong personally. This ability to determine what "feels" right or wrong lies in the ability to use it's intelligence in determining 2 things...

1. What naturally all beings would or would not want done to them, in the context of what it would or would not want done to itself.

2. What situations could possibly change the conclusions of number 1 and when these changes to the original conclusion should or shouldn't be applied.

The complete and final decision to act moral because of personal beliefs, desires, and/or emotions lies in the being's ability to use it's natural intelligence and emotions to conclude number 1, in combination with using it's natural intelligence, feelings, and intuitive abilities to conclude number 2.

These are intelligent, rational, and logical reasons why a being would act moral.

- Justin Chains -
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -
nonentity
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4/13/2011 10:19:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This picture sums up how I feel pretty nicely. http://i.imgur.com...

That is, morality = doing what is right regardless of what I am told. Religion = doing what I am told regardless of what is right.
rogue
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4/13/2011 10:24:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:26:01 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
I want to know if any value morality and if so why?

Of course they do. Do you really think someone needs religion to be moral? I believe in subjective morals. It means the person decides for themselves if someone is moral or not. It is just an opinion like any other. I try to stick by my morals and hope that others change theirs if they disagree with mine. Since there is no absolute moral source or compass, this is how I view morals.
rogue
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4/13/2011 10:26:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:46:50 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:38:53 PM, nonentity wrote:
I'm an atheist and I value morality. I also believe in objective morality; I just don't believe it comes from God.

Thank you for responding but you did not ans. part 2. why should you be moral what is the point what is the gain what is the motive?

Why does there need to be a motive? Would you not be moral if you didn't gain something from it? Being moral does help you in society because if you do immoral things people will dislike, shun, and hate you, not to mention you could wind up in jail or a mental institution.
annhasle
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4/13/2011 10:55:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm a moral nihilist.

I assert that there is no inherent value to morality and any contrived value ascribed to morality is based on faulty premises.

But I'm also an existential nihilist so that's not surprising.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 11:03:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
with regard to your 1st claim as I stated before, logicly speaking there is no conection betwen the wife doing it and it being done to her, so long no one finds out. If she does it is it more likly to happen to her? of course not. if so the fact that she doesn't whant to be poisend is not reason to refrain from poisend. please folow the logic I will respond to your other points in futer posts.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh