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Consciousness? How should it effect politics?

comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:02:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So...

Aristotle brings up the need for good citizens. In a polity, government is there to create good citizens through Aristotelian virtues in his governmental models.

How does the free market play into consciousness?
Should government be there to help make "good citizens," or should education be there to bridge the gap?
Should freedom and liberty be the only absolute with education having all the responsibility of creating good citizens?
Government regulations are made to anticipate market failures, and allow for protection of the public. Is this right or wrong?
(I see government as trying to anticipate the need of public protection, but constantly over compensating; resulting in government being the problem rather than the solution.)

Why should government never interfere in the lives of humans?

(I think that is enough questioning to create a good discussion... I hope...)

Daniel
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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5/9/2011 12:09:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:02:45 AM, comoncents wrote:
So...


Aristotle brings up the need for good citizens. In a polity, government is there to create good citizens through Aristotelian virtues in his governmental models.

Lets start out by defining a "good citizen".

How would you define that?

How does the free market play into consciousness?

Isn't that the point of you creating this thread -- to show how the free market affects consciousness?

Should government be there to help make "good citizens," or should education be there to bridge the gap?

The government does not help create "good citizens", if such a citizen does exist. And education should exist but not at the hands of the state.

Should freedom and liberty be the only absolute with education having all the responsibility of creating good citizens?

Expound please.

Government regulations are made to anticipate market failures, and allow for protection of the public. Is this right or wrong?

Wrong.

(I see government as trying to anticipate the need of public protection, but constantly over compensating; resulting in government being the problem rather than the solution.)

Why should government never interfere in the lives of humans?

Because there is no logical justification for the alternative.

(I think that is enough questioning to create a good discussion... I hope...)


Daniel
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
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5/9/2011 12:11:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:06:48 AM, comoncents wrote:
Why do we allow ideology to rule us?

I was under the impression that we create the ideologies and therefore rule their interpretation.

What about reason?

We manipulate reason.

Are we all ideologues? (Is that right?)

Yes.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Greyparrot
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5/9/2011 12:12:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
How about this line of reasoning?

Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
(Samuel Clemens)

Along these lines, people are about as educated as they make up their minds to be.

Assuming a free market is regulated by educated consumers, the consumer is about as happy with the fee market as they make up their minds to be.

How about that for consciousness?
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:15:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Good citizen is having "Perfect virtue"

someone who shares in performing

"justice"
"charity"
"education"

arete- excellence in fulfillment of these qualities.
Greyparrot
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5/9/2011 12:18:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:15:53 AM, comoncents wrote:
Good citizen is having "Perfect virtue"

someone who shares in performing

"justice"
"charity"
"education"


arete- excellence in fulfillment of these qualities.

All these are arbitrary. A Mullah practicing Shariah law fits these criteria. Is he a good citizen?
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:23:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago

The government does not help create "good citizens", if such a citizen does exist. And education should exist but not at the hands of the state.


See most ancient philosophers (or modern liberals) would disagree. If the goal is to be good citizens than governments obligation is to help or force the facilitation of that virtue.


Government regulations are made to anticipate market failures, and allow for protection of the public. Is this right or wrong?

Wrong.


It is not wrong. That is the intent of regulations.
Guns- they are regulated to help against people getting shot.
Cap and Trade- is regulated to stop pollution so people can breath clean air (and other things)
Oil rigs- are regulated in order to prevent spills.

(I am not saying it is correct. I am just telling you how it is. That is why regulations are in place. Politicians see their job as protecting the people. They set regulations to implement and help protection. I think that most compensation on the governments part usually results in hurting, rather than helping... but that does not change the original intent.)


Why should government never interfere in the lives of humans?

Because there is no logical justification for the alternative.


I kind of explain it with the above post... Kind of...

(I think that is enough questioning to create a good discussion... I hope...)


Daniel
Greyparrot
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5/9/2011 12:24:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would argue that a good citizen recognizes the need to think outside of his own household and think of the needs and goals of the community. This is not charity, rather civic responsibility. This means it is every person's job to see that the herd is preserved. Sometimes this means making hard choices on the unproductive. It is not charity, it is responsibility.
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:28:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:11:16 AM, annhasle wrote:

Are we all ideologues? (Is that right?)

Yes.

Would you not agree that there is danger in that...?
Ideologues refuse to change no matter what!
This is why I believe libertarians are dangerous. It is like the republicans and war, trickle down, and religion. "It worked for us before, and it will work for us again..."

It is a dangerous road!

The counter to this is the wishy washy guy who changes with the wind. That too is as dangerous.
GeoLaureate8
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5/9/2011 12:28:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
As Reasoning would rightly say, "citizen" is a derogatory term.

So to say "good citizen" is like saying "good slave."

A good citizen, someone who obeys the laws arbitrarily coerced upon us? That's not something we should be aiming to achieve. We need people to be bad citizens and dissent and abolish all the unjust laws that are destroying our civil liberties.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:30:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:12:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
How about this line of reasoning?

Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.
(Samuel Clemens)

Along these lines, people are about as educated as they make up their minds to be.

Assuming a free market is regulated by educated consumers, the consumer is about as happy with the fee market as they make up their minds to be.

How about that for consciousness?

Interesting. I'll chew that cud!
J.Kenyon
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5/9/2011 12:30:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:28:27 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:11:16 AM, annhasle wrote:

Are we all ideologues? (Is that right?)

Yes.

Would you not agree that there is danger in that...?
Ideologues refuse to change no matter what!

Having no set ideology is itself an ideology. It's an inconsistent ideology based solely on subjective individual preferences, but it is an ideology all the same.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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5/9/2011 12:30:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:18:02 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:15:53 AM, comoncents wrote:
Good citizen is having "Perfect virtue"

someone who shares in performing

"justice"
"charity"
"education"


arete- excellence in fulfillment of these qualities.

All these are arbitrary. A Mullah practicing Shariah law fits these criteria. Is he a good citizen?

I am using aristotelian language.
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:32:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:25:55 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Frankly, the fact that government has a stranglehold on our education system scares the sh*t out of me.

I would agree, but do you think education is a right?
Should the government propitiate an educated public through taxes and school?
Greyparrot
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5/9/2011 12:33:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:30:47 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:18:02 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:15:53 AM, comoncents wrote:
Good citizen is having "Perfect virtue"

someone who shares in performing

"justice"
"charity"
"education"


arete- excellence in fulfillment of these qualities.

All these are arbitrary. A Mullah practicing Shariah law fits these criteria. Is he a good citizen?

I am using aristotelian language.

Oh okay, i'll go look that up, what do you think about my definition of a good citizen? Especially with the disclaimer about government reliance?
Greyparrot
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5/9/2011 12:39:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:32:17 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:25:55 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Frankly, the fact that government has a stranglehold on our education system scares the sh*t out of me.

I would agree, but do you think education is a right?
Should the government propitiate an educated public through taxes and school?

If tax-funded education is a right, issue vouchers to everyone.

If tax-funded education is a privilege for the poor, then means test it, shut down alot of schools, and lower everyone's tax burden.
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:39:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:24:10 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
I would argue that a good citizen recognizes the need to think outside of his own household and think of the needs and goals of the community.

That is what I am describing, but why shouldn't the government help in community building? (Or force us too... I understand that it is an absurd argument, but these questions need to be asked to challenge the young theorist.)

This is not charity, rather civic responsibility.

Do you honestly believe that the private will help? You are having a lot of faith in an imperfect person. I think it is slightly utopian to say something like that. I know I would give if I felt the government was not taking, but we are a rare breed. Most people would take their money and run! The damage has been done. People will take their money and RUN!
That is the point!

This means it is every person's job to see that the herd is preserved.

Exactly. Now we are getting somewhere. But can you trust everyone to do that?
I totally agree, and I know I would do everything in my power to help!

It is the argument I had today with a liberal.

Shouldn't the government help fund plant parenthood? This guy went off on how the defunding was ignorant, but I explained it differently. I told him that if Plant Parenthood helped me, I would feel obligated to give back; in turn, giving plant parenthood funds. But that is too logical. We are giving the population a lot of credit, no?

See. It is a little too utopian...
(maybe not, but I'll keep trying...)

Sometimes this means making hard choices on the unproductive. It is not charity, it is responsibility.
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:43:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:28:25 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
If a person relies on the government to take on his civic responsibility, he ceases to be a good citizen by definition.

But not if the government forces us to be good citizens.
(look I don't agree with force! Let me state that first!)

What about passions going to far?

Look at Socrates in the Gorgias. Indulgence of passions are a danger to a citizen. If we allow people to pick passions over reason, they will.
People will make themselves sick?

(just a side note. Not really relevant but I'd like your take on it. I know mine, but I want yours.)
J.Kenyon
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5/9/2011 12:44:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:32:17 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:25:55 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Frankly, the fact that government has a stranglehold on our education system scares the sh*t out of me.

I would agree, but do you think education is a right?

No. I think the concept of positive rights is logically incoherent.

Should the government propitiate an educated public through taxes and school?

No, for the same reason government shouldn't propitiate an educated public through state run newspapers, or TV stations. Think about the kinds of things they teach you in public school.

- Our founding fathers were like, really awesome people. We should hang pictures of them everywhere and sing songs about them and read books about them and make up stories about how great they were (eg. George Washington and the cherry tree).
- A good citizen should be willing to die for his or her country.
- America is awesome. Just because we made a few mistakes, like putting those filthy, yellow-faced Japs into concentration camps, or committing genocide against Native Americans, or ordering drone strikes that kill innocent civilians, or bombing pharmaceutical plants in Sudan, or torturing prisoners, etc. doesn't mean we aren't a beacon of peace, freedom, and democracy that the whole world looks up to.
- The flag is sacred. People who fail to show it proper respect are un-American.
- In fact, it's a good idea to sing songs about the flag and recite pledges to the flag every single day. That Nazi sympathizer Francis Bellamy sure was a smart guy!
- Taxes are good.
- Democracy is totally awesome.
- Dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was necessary to end WWII.
- Sometimes, big corporations need help from the government.

I could go on, but you get the point.
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:45:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:28:54 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
As Reasoning would rightly say, "citizen" is a derogatory term.


HaHaHa, that is true.

So to say "good citizen" is like saying "good slave."


I had this same point 3 years ago.
See what Aristotle says about slaves, and women for that matter.

A good citizen, someone who obeys the laws arbitrarily coerced upon us? That's not something we should be aiming to achieve. We need people to be bad citizens and dissent and abolish all the unjust laws that are destroying our civil liberties.

Interesting point.
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:47:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:30:37 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:28:27 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:11:16 AM, annhasle wrote:

Are we all ideologues? (Is that right?)

Yes.

Would you not agree that there is danger in that...?
Ideologues refuse to change no matter what!

Having no set ideology is itself an ideology.

True. But to stick with an ideology no matter what can be dangerous, no?
I am sure you will say no, but what if a person follows the wrong ideology. Marx was an ideologue. Ron Paul is an ideologue. I understand that you agree with one over the other, but what if Marx ruled. It can be dangerous. How do you know that your ideology is the best?

It's an inconsistent ideology based solely on subjective individual preferences, but it is an ideology all the same.

True.
comoncents
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5/9/2011 12:50:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:39:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:32:17 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:25:55 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Frankly, the fact that government has a stranglehold on our education system scares the sh*t out of me.

I would agree, but do you think education is a right?
Should the government propitiate an educated public through taxes and school?

If tax-funded education is a right, issue vouchers to everyone.

If tax-funded education is a privilege for the poor, then means test it, shut down alot of schools, and lower everyone's tax burden.

But do you think education is a right?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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5/9/2011 12:52:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
PLANNED PARENTHOOD

My bad. I made fun of him for it and now I am writing it! Ha! Sorry. He is not the most educated person. He is a religious tea party member. (Sorry!!!!) (I am sure I'll never live that down)