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Why is murder wrong?

kohai
Posts: 380
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5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong? Furthermore, why is anything right or wrong?
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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5/30/2011 4:38:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM, kohai wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong? Furthermore, why is anything right or wrong?

It's evolutionary. We learned that certain things are beneficial to us/society in the long run and other things aren't.
kohai
Posts: 380
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5/30/2011 4:56:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
But what if we were wrong on that?

These are questions needing answers in my case against abortion.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/30/2011 5:07:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 4:56:21 PM, kohai wrote:
But what if we were wrong on that?

These are questions needing answers in my case against abortion.

Are you a moral nihilist or not? I doubt you will be able to win a case that murder is morally right. You can win a case stating that morally doesn't exist.
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kohai
Posts: 380
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5/30/2011 5:11:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:07:53 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:56:21 PM, kohai wrote:
But what if we were wrong on that?

These are questions needing answers in my case against abortion.

Are you a moral nihilist or not? I doubt you will be able to win a case that murder is morally right. You can win a case stating that morally doesn't exist.

I believe murder is wrong...but why? This is a secular debate on abortion.
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1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 5:16:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM, kohai wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong? Furthermore, why is anything right or wrong?

It's wrong if the men with guns say it's wrong. kthxbai.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 5:22:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 4:36:06 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Evolution.
I disagree. Men are actually predisposed to fight and kill rival men. We are just clever apes after all. There is an argument for our conscious(given our ancestors who didn't kill each other were more likely to survive), but our emotions are hardly a good indicator of what

Culture.
No. I can elaborate, but this is pretty much an argument ad populum.

Reason.
Pow, this is the best one, but it doesn't make it inherently wrong, just undesirable. I don't want you to murder my loved ones so I won't murder yours and all that. However, (in my opinion) it isn't wrong to murder someone to protect your loved ones, so.....
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 5:23:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:17:42 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
If you want a way to argue for morality without theism then look to social contract theory.

Meh; I don't see this as morality. I've said it before; morality is just a buzz word. It doesn't really mean anything more than "undesirable".
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Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/30/2011 5:43:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:23:44 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/30/2011 5:17:42 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
If you want a way to argue for morality without theism then look to social contract theory.

Meh; I don't see this as morality. I've said it before; morality is just a buzz word. It doesn't really mean anything more than "undesirable".

It was desirable for Hitler to kill jews, it is immoral under social contract theory.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 5:47:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:43:13 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/30/2011 5:23:44 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/30/2011 5:17:42 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
If you want a way to argue for morality without theism then look to social contract theory.

Meh; I don't see this as morality. I've said it before; morality is just a buzz word. It doesn't really mean anything more than "undesirable".

It was desirable for Hitler to kill jews, it is undesirable under social contract theory.

See what I did there?
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Merda
Posts: 322
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5/30/2011 5:52:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:52:13 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
Tv, you can accept social contact theory and desire to do something and still conclude it is immoral.

Social contract theory is a joke.
My manwich!
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 5:55:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:52:13 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
Tv, you can accept social contact theory and desire to do something and still conclude it is immoral.

I can also accept social contract theory and conclude that morality has nothing to do with it. :)
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Merda
Posts: 322
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5/30/2011 5:58:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:58:14 PM, mongeese wrote:
Murder is wrong because it violates a right (the right to life, in this case) without consent.

What gives a person the right to life?
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Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/30/2011 6:00:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:52:45 PM, Merda wrote:
At 5/30/2011 5:52:13 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
Tv, you can accept social contact theory and desire to do something and still conclude it is immoral.

Social contract theory is a joke.

You could walk straight into an academic position if you could support that.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 6:01:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:58:54 PM, Merda wrote:
At 5/30/2011 5:58:14 PM, mongeese wrote:
Murder is wrong because it violates a right (the right to life, in this case) without consent.

I agree, except I would add that by violating someone else's rights (such as hurting my family) they lose their right to life. Self-defence principal and all that.

What gives a person the right to life?

o.O;
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GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/30/2011 6:16:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 4:38:18 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM, kohai wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong? Furthermore, why is anything right or wrong?

It's evolutionary. We learned that certain things are beneficial to us/society in the long run and other things aren't.

It is true that we learn to create a more efficient, beneficial society that pleases the majority, but what has that got to do with biological organisms evolving over millions and millions of years!?

It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that man feel away from God due to his disobedience and then man built culture society from there on. What makes our society today exclusive to the theory of evolution?
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 6:19:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 6:16:28 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:38:18 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM, kohai wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong? Furthermore, why is anything right or wrong?

It's evolutionary. We learned that certain things are beneficial to us/society in the long run and other things aren't.

It is true that we learn to create a more efficient, beneficial society that pleases the majority, but what has that got to do with biological organisms evolving over millions and millions of years!?

It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that man feel away from God due to his disobedience and then man built culture society from there on. What makes our society today exclusive to the theory of evolution?

Before I answer, do you still believe in a Young Earth?
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GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/30/2011 6:19:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 6:16:28 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:38:18 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM, kohai wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong? Furthermore, why is anything right or wrong?

It's evolutionary. We learned that certain things are beneficial to us/society in the long run and other things aren't.

It is true that we learn to create a more efficient, beneficial society that pleases the majority, but what has that got to do with biological organisms evolving over millions and millions of years!?

It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that man feel away from God due to his disobedience and then man built culture society from there on. What makes our society today exclusive to the theory of evolution?

I meant 'fell' by the way, not 'feel'.

Also you must give exclusive evidence that absolutely suggests our society and culture was constructed and built upon the rock of evolutionary processes (macro).
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/30/2011 6:20:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 6:19:26 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/30/2011 6:16:28 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:38:18 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM, kohai wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong? Furthermore, why is anything right or wrong?

It's evolutionary. We learned that certain things are beneficial to us/society in the long run and other things aren't.

It is true that we learn to create a more efficient, beneficial society that pleases the majority, but what has that got to do with biological organisms evolving over millions and millions of years!?

It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that man feel away from God due to his disobedience and then man built culture society from there on. What makes our society today exclusive to the theory of evolution?

Before I answer, do you still believe in a Young Earth?

6000 years abouts? Yes I do.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/30/2011 6:26:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 6:20:43 PM, GodSands wrote:

[...]

6000 years abouts? Yes I do.

Do you believe that God faked everything to make it seem like it was older or simply that all of modern science is wrong.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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5/30/2011 6:33:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 5:22:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:36:06 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Evolution.
I disagree. Men are actually predisposed to fight and kill rival men. We are just clever apes after all. There is an argument for our conscious(given our ancestors who didn't kill each other were more likely to survive), but our emotions are hardly a good indicator of what

Culture.
No. I can elaborate, but this is pretty much an argument ad populum.

Reason.
Pow, this is the best one, but it doesn't make it inherently wrong, just undesirable. I don't want you to murder my loved ones so I won't murder yours and all that. However, (in my opinion) it isn't wrong to murder someone to protect your loved ones, so.....

The evolution point is descriptive. Humans needed to form large groups to thrive, while it may have been acceptable to kill threatening groups it was very much needed to look after the welfare of those within a group.

Again, the culture point is descriptive. Culture imbues us with certain morals.

I never claimed morality was inherently wrong on some God given or metaphysical level.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 6:34:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 6:20:43 PM, GodSands wrote:
Before I answer, do you still believe in a Young Earth?

6000 years abouts? Yes I do.

K.

At 5/30/2011 6:19:49 PM, GodSands wrote:
Also you must give exclusive evidence that absolutely suggests our society and culture was constructed and built upon the rock of evolutionary processes (macro).

Wow, that's a pretty high standard of evidence, one you know I probably can't meet to your liking.
However, since you used the word "suggests" rather than "proves" I'll give it a go.
The evidence suggests that the places in the world with the best farming resources (specifically the fertile crescent) are also the places where civilisation sprung up and grew at the fastest rate. Take a country like Australia for example; we don't have any creatures which can be domesticated and very few plants. Prior to British colonisation, the indigenous people lived as hunter-gatherers.
Now take a place like Italy for example. This is the epicentre for farming; most of the major animals and plants which can be farmed are either found reasonably locally or could be imported via primitive methods.
The reason these plants and animals are in these areas is a direct result of environmental impact of these specific places on primitive life, i.e. evolution.
Places where food could be farmed were able to support more people. More people leads to faster technological advancement. Faster technological advancement plus more people leads to larger societies. All people have culture, so that is a moot point.

I'm trying to summarise Guns, Germs and Steel into one paragraph and probably failing miserably. It's an excellent book and I highly recommend you read it.

Of course God could have magically done all of this, but the circumstantial evidence fits evolution so perfectly that God need not have been involved. While you're at it, you should also read The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Nature.
Between those two books, which use mountains of evidence to support their arguments, I have a pretty firm grasp of how the world came to be how it is today, purely via evolutionary means.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/30/2011 6:37:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 6:33:56 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 5/30/2011 5:22:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:36:06 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Evolution.
I disagree. Men are actually predisposed to fight and kill rival men. We are just clever apes after all. There is an argument for our conscious(given our ancestors who didn't kill each other were more likely to survive), but our emotions are hardly a good indicator of what

Culture.
No. I can elaborate, but this is pretty much an argument ad populum.

Reason.
Pow, this is the best one, but it doesn't make it inherently wrong, just undesirable. I don't want you to murder my loved ones so I won't murder yours and all that. However, (in my opinion) it isn't wrong to murder someone to protect your loved ones, so.....

The evolution point is descriptive. Humans needed to form large groups to thrive, while it may have been acceptable to kill threatening groups it was very much needed to look after the welfare of those within a group.

I disagree. See my previous post. Humans need to farm to thrive and thriving humans naturally breed more.

Again, the culture point is descriptive. Culture imbues us with certain morals.

No. Culture doesn't imbibe us with anything; Culture is so great and varied around the world. In some places it's perfectly acceptable to kill.
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Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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5/30/2011 6:37:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 4:30:30 PM, kohai wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Why is murder wrong?

Remind me never to be within 100 feet of you.
kfc
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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5/30/2011 6:41:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 6:37:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/30/2011 6:33:56 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 5/30/2011 5:22:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/30/2011 4:36:06 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Evolution.
I disagree. Men are actually predisposed to fight and kill rival men. We are just clever apes after all. There is an argument for our conscious(given our ancestors who didn't kill each other were more likely to survive), but our emotions are hardly a good indicator of what

Culture.
No. I can elaborate, but this is pretty much an argument ad populum.

Reason.
Pow, this is the best one, but it doesn't make it inherently wrong, just undesirable. I don't want you to murder my loved ones so I won't murder yours and all that. However, (in my opinion) it isn't wrong to murder someone to protect your loved ones, so.....

The evolution point is descriptive. Humans needed to form large groups to thrive, while it may have been acceptable to kill threatening groups it was very much needed to look after the welfare of those within a group.

I disagree. See my previous post. Humans need to farm to thrive and thriving humans naturally breed more.

Again, the culture point is descriptive. Culture imbues us with certain morals.

No. Culture doesn't imbibe us with anything; Culture is so great and varied around the world. In some places it's perfectly acceptable to kill.

You fail to understand that the evolution of human society was largely about cooperation and looking after our own. I'm not saying this makes it inherently right.

I know cultures vary. My culture tells me it's not okay to kill people except in extreme circumstances. Cultures shape morals.