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Lucid Dreaming and a Case For God

Rockylightning
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5/31/2011 9:37:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I bet all of you have had a dream in which you know you are dreaming. This is called a lucid dream. Lucid dreaming http://en.wikipedia.org... is when one dreams while is conscious that one is dreaming. A key difference between a lucid dream and a normal dream is that in a normal dream, you are unaware of the irrationalities in physics and logic.

In a normal dream you can fly and it can rain frogs, with you being oblivious and failing to notice the irrationality behind such events. Usually, you wake up realizing how silly your dream was.

In a lucid dream, you can still fly, but you recognize that you are dreaming and that flying is impossible. You accept the absurdity of the dream and keep dreaming, because lucid dreaming is very fun.

This begs the question, if we are completely unaware of the irrationalities in a normal dream, could we be unaware of irrationalities in the real world? Entering a dream is entering an sub-reality, where things can happen that wouldn't in the 'real' world. How can we be sure that our world isn't an alternate reality.

The answer is we can't. In a normal dream, it is impossible to know that you are dreaming (proving you are in a sub-reality). It is the same that you cannot know you are dreaming in the 'real' world. This implies that we may be completely unaware of logical or physical irrationalities that we are experiencing every day. (Please note when I say reality, I do not mean universe. A universe is a collection of matter that all behaves by the same laws of logic. A reality is a different dimension with its own laws of logic.)

How is this a case for god? Let's postulate that there is a god, and that he is omnipotent, omniscient etc. If we are in a sub-reality right now, this means that there are multiple "styles" of logic/physics, and each reality has its own unique style of logic. In an alternate reality, god may be able to exist in contradiction (contradictions that would be true in our reality, but not his). He might even be able to escape the many common contradictions of existence and creation that atheists have come to love.

To conclude, dreams are a testament to the fact that we can exist in (and be completely oblivious to) a reality with contradictions and logical flaws. Alternate realities opens the door for different styles of logic to exist. These styles of logic, though would appear irrational in our world, would be completely fine outside. This gives God a leg to stand on because a different reality may be able to support an omnipotent, omniscient, all perfect being.
Rockylightning
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5/31/2011 9:49:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/31/2011 9:42:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
It's sort of problematic when you get to the whole Biblical thing where God exists in this universe, creates the heavens and the Earth, will make his new kingdom on Earth, was reportedly seen existing here by people, and stuff like that.

I don't see how that's relevant.
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/31/2011 11:16:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am a frequent lucid dreamer. I have and still do a lot of meditation. All of this is self examination, and both will give you greater insight into how your mind works.

One thing a lot of people don't know is that the mind works very similar awake as it does in a dream.

Imagine the awake mind as operating on different levels. For sake of simplicity, we'll divide this into 2 levels. There is the conscious, and the subconscious.

The conscious is basically everything at the front of your attention, what you are most focused on. The subconscious is all that background noise, and the various processes that go into your cognition that you often filter out.

It is possible to become more aware of what normally is your subconscious. By more aware, I mean converting more of this subconscious process into conscious process.

The more you become aware of what is going on in your head, the more you realize how wild and absurd the human mind is in its workings.

Now, there is one fundamental difference between an awake mind and a lucid dreaming mind. When you are lucid dreaming, you are conscious of what is going on in your head with one added bonus.. Your external senses are almost if not completely shut off. Basically, you are trapped in your head without having all this external stimuli having such a huge effect on your cognitive process.

If you can stay conscious while in this state, you will find that the irrationality and chaotic nature of the mind becomes more obvious. Because of a lack of external stimuli, your mind often times will make approximate images of reality. At the same time, weirder things pass through, because your external sense aren't constantly keeping you in check. Your mind is more free to run wild.

It is one of the more creative and liberating mindsets there are.

Now, if you are really paying attention to these things while you are studying them personally, you will realize that there is a lot of that sub-conscious, a lot of that dream world that actually leaks out while you are fully awake.

Even if you believe you are fully controlling your dream, you aren't. There is always a chaotic element.

Now, I have a lot of ideas about this inner world. I believe that an understanding of this special place can give one a far greater insight when it comes to psychology, religion, spirituality, and creative efforts.

Of course, the problem about talking about these things is just about anyone can parrot off this sh!t, pretend to be aware of this stuff, and use it as some sort of device to be pretentious or whatever...

A lot of the people who delve into these deeper regions of the mind don't know what they are getting into. The people who dive into this stuff unprepared at best turn into Egotistical New Age schmucks, and at worst, full blown schizophrenics.

From my own experiences talking with the less far gone schizophrenics, it is surprising how aware they seem to be of certain concepts of the deeper mind. This only makes me feel that there is a possibility that my observation is correct.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/1/2011 3:34:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/31/2011 11:16:46 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I am a frequent lucid dreamer. I have and still do a lot of meditation. All of this is self examination, and both will give you greater insight into how your mind works.

One thing a lot of people don't know is that the mind works very similar awake as it does in a dream.

Imagine the awake mind as operating on different levels. For sake of simplicity, we'll divide this into 2 levels. There is the conscious, and the subconscious.

The conscious is basically everything at the front of your attention, what you are most focused on. The subconscious is all that background noise, and the various processes that go into your cognition that you often filter out.

It is possible to become more aware of what normally is your subconscious. By more aware, I mean converting more of this subconscious process into conscious process.

The more you become aware of what is going on in your head, the more you realize how wild and absurd the human mind is in its workings.


Now, there is one fundamental difference between an awake mind and a lucid dreaming mind. When you are lucid dreaming, you are conscious of what is going on in your head with one added bonus.. Your external senses are almost if not completely shut off. Basically, you are trapped in your head without having all this external stimuli having such a huge effect on your cognitive process.

If you can stay conscious while in this state, you will find that the irrationality and chaotic nature of the mind becomes more obvious. Because of a lack of external stimuli, your mind often times will make approximate images of reality. At the same time, weirder things pass through, because your external sense aren't constantly keeping you in check. Your mind is more free to run wild.

It is one of the more creative and liberating mindsets there are.

Now, if you are really paying attention to these things while you are studying them personally, you will realize that there is a lot of that sub-conscious, a lot of that dream world that actually leaks out while you are fully awake.


Even if you believe you are fully controlling your dream, you aren't. There is always a chaotic element.


Now, I have a lot of ideas about this inner world. I believe that an understanding of this special place can give one a far greater insight when it comes to psychology, religion, spirituality, and creative efforts.


Of course, the problem about talking about these things is just about anyone can parrot off this sh!t, pretend to be aware of this stuff, and use it as some sort of device to be pretentious or whatever...

A lot of the people who delve into these deeper regions of the mind don't know what they are getting into. The people who dive into this stuff unprepared at best turn into Egotistical New Age schmucks, and at worst, full blown schizophrenics.

From my own experiences talking with the less far gone schizophrenics, it is surprising how aware they seem to be of certain concepts of the deeper mind. This only makes me feel that there is a possibility that my observation is correct.

I too am a lucid dreamer and one who meditates quite often. I agree almost completely with Cosmic, except for the when he says that it is all going on in your head. I see this as a half truth. The full truth being that your brain a tool that lets you experience your soul as it may or may not connect to other souls or unknown realities of the spirit world. Lucid dreaming is an amazing experience and one that shows us more to actuality than just the normal physicality that we experience when we are physically "awake". Once you become a strong lucid dreamer and if you continue to crave it... I would start looking into "astral projection". Though I do warn, don't dive into "astral projection" until you have become mentally and spiritually strong enough, as it can be scary for some at first. Practice meditation and try to build your ability to retain full consciousness for increasingly long periods of time when you start lucid dreaming (it is hard at first...for most when you first are able to gain consciousness during a dream..you will "awake" suddenly. Just try to build this ability and it will get easier). Also, try to do some research on other human experiences involving lucid dreaming and astral projection, this knowledge will better prepare you for the experiences you will encounter on your journey.

Further, once you've learned how to open up your psychic pathways... Learn how to protect yourself against psychic attacks. It is a very real and little understood "phenomenon". I will give a good link to get you started, but there are many avenues of learning to protect yourself. Developing this ability is very important. This link shoots you to Atomarane, a very good teacher on psychic defense and many other things.

http://www.youtube.com...

Also, if you are interested in opening your mind towards different dimensions of reality an the universe being and emanating from the mind of God like a dream, but on an infinite scale instead of our human finite scale...

Then I highly recommend reading The Kybalion. There are PDF versions of it available on the internet if you are indeed interested.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/1/2011 3:51:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 3:44:38 PM, headphonegut wrote:
Lmao

You won't think it is so funny when the demons attack your mind through the open psychic pathways.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/1/2011 3:56:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The full truth being that your brain a tool that lets you experience your soul as it may or may not connect to other souls or unknown realities of the spirit world.

What do you mean by soul? What do you mean by "unknown realities"? What do you mean by "spirit world"?

I would start looking into "astral projection". Though I do warn, don't dive into "astral projection" until you have become mentally and spiritually strong enough, as it can be scary for some at first.

What do you think "astral projection" is, and what do you mean by "mentally and spiritually" strong?

Practice meditation and try to build your ability to retain full consciousness for increasingly long periods of time when you start lucid dreaming

What do you think "meditation" is?

Further, once you've learned how to open up your psychic pathways... Learn how to protect yourself against psychic attacks. It is a very real and little understood "phenomenon". I will give a good link to get you started, but there are many avenues of learning to protect yourself. Developing this ability is very important. This link shoots you to Atomarane, a very good teacher on psychic defense and many other things.


What is a "psychic pathway"? What is a "psychic attack"? What do you think "psychic" means?

Also, if you are interested in opening your mind towards different dimensions of reality

What is a "dimension of reality"?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/1/2011 4:05:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 3:56:34 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The full truth being that your brain a tool that lets you experience your soul as it may or may not connect to other souls or unknown realities of the spirit world.

What do you mean by soul? What do you mean by "unknown realities"? What do you mean by "spirit world"?



I would start looking into "astral projection". Though I do warn, don't dive into "astral projection" until you have become mentally and spiritually strong enough, as it can be scary for some at first.

What do you think "astral projection" is, and what do you mean by "mentally and spiritually" strong?

Practice meditation and try to build your ability to retain full consciousness for increasingly long periods of time when you start lucid dreaming

What do you think "meditation" is?

Further, once you've learned how to open up your psychic pathways... Learn how to protect yourself against psychic attacks. It is a very real and little understood "phenomenon". I will give a good link to get you started, but there are many avenues of learning to protect yourself. Developing this ability is very important. This link shoots you to Atomarane, a very good teacher on psychic defense and many other things.


What is a "psychic pathway"? What is a "psychic attack"? What do you think "psychic" means?



Also, if you are interested in opening your mind towards different dimensions of reality

What is a "dimension of reality"?

It's not what these terms mean to me that matters. It's what these terms mean to you as it relays to he information I am trying to communicate. If they mean thing to you, then there is no point for the communication to be understood.

"The lips of Wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding."

Semantics is pointless here. "Meaning" and "intent" are far more important. Develop the ability to understand meaning and intent, and you will find yourself understanding the point of communication.
headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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6/1/2011 4:08:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 3:51:49 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/1/2011 3:44:38 PM, headphonegut wrote:
Lmao

You won't think it is so funny when the demons attack your mind through the open psychic pathways.

Lol sorry about being ambiguous but I'm laughing at Justin chains
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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6/1/2011 4:12:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
And for the record dreams don't prove anything you have made empirical evidence as to how their can be a god because we have dreams that we can manipulate?
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
headphonegut
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6/1/2011 4:14:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Oh nvm cliffS got why I was laughing I got leprechauns in me
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/1/2011 4:19:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 4:05:49 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/1/2011 3:56:34 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The full truth being that your brain a tool that lets you experience your soul as it may or may not connect to other souls or unknown realities of the spirit world.

What do you mean by soul? What do you mean by "unknown realities"? What do you mean by "spirit world"?



I would start looking into "astral projection". Though I do warn, don't dive into "astral projection" until you have become mentally and spiritually strong enough, as it can be scary for some at first.

What do you think "astral projection" is, and what do you mean by "mentally and spiritually" strong?

Practice meditation and try to build your ability to retain full consciousness for increasingly long periods of time when you start lucid dreaming

What do you think "meditation" is?

Further, once you've learned how to open up your psychic pathways... Learn how to protect yourself against psychic attacks. It is a very real and little understood "phenomenon". I will give a good link to get you started, but there are many avenues of learning to protect yourself. Developing this ability is very important. This link shoots you to Atomarane, a very good teacher on psychic defense and many other things.


What is a "psychic pathway"? What is a "psychic attack"? What do you think "psychic" means?



Also, if you are interested in opening your mind towards different dimensions of reality

What is a "dimension of reality"?

It's not what these terms mean to me that matters. It's what these terms mean to you as it relays to he information I am trying to communicate. If they mean thing to you, then there is no point for the communication to be understood.

"The lips of Wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding."

Semantics is pointless here. "Meaning" and "intent" are far more important. Develop the ability to understand meaning and intent, and you will find yourself understanding the point of communication.

Hey, if you want to blow your chance to be taken seriously, that's your problem.

The only thing you've managed to do is get me to scratch my head and ponder Poe's Law. You are like the walking embodiment of every negative stereotype I have about the New Age movement.

If you are trolling, I am genuinely impressed. Keep it up, I am absolutely stunned. If you aren't kidding me, then...

*nods head while pointing 2 fingers at you, and giving a clenched teeth grin*

Don't mind me though, I'm just a fool.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Justin_Chains
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6/1/2011 4:19:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 4:12:33 PM, headphonegut wrote:
And for the record dreams don't prove anything you have made empirical evidence as to how their can be a god because we have dreams that we can manipulate?

Not sure who you are talking to... But I never said that.

You would be false though. Dreams prove lots of things in some people's reality. What those things are is different for everyone. Obviously in your reality they do not prove very much, because you choose to believe it that way. If you believe something to be true, then it is. All the proof that anyone needs is that which makes them believe it is true.

Objective and subjective truths are both half true.
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/1/2011 4:21:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
An objective truth is, by definition completely true.

There is no such thing as an objective half truth. If it is a half truth, it isn't objective.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
headphonegut
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6/1/2011 4:32:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 4:19:15 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/1/2011 4:12:33 PM, headphonegut wrote:
And for the record dreams don't prove anything you have made empirical evidence as to how their can be a god because we have dreams that we can manipulate?

Not sure who you are talking to... But I never said that.

You would be false though. Dreams prove lots of things in some people's reality. What those things are is different for everyone. Obviously in your reality they do not prove very much, because you choose to believe it that way. If you believe something to be true, then it is. All the proof that anyone needs is that which makes them believe it is true.

Objective and subjective truths are both half true.

The sun is yellow is half true? The sky is blue is half true? What is true is a perception of people beliefs making it subjective what is honest is what people do when they don't lie what is fact is an objective truth like the sky is blue in all cases of truthfulness honesty and factuality everybody believes in something 100% not 50% you can't round down
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/1/2011 5:08:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 4:21:34 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
An objective truth is, by definition completely true.

There is no such thing as an objective half truth. If it is a half truth, it isn't objective.

It's only have true as far as subjective truth is concerned. We all live in subjective realities with subjective definitions of what is objectively true. All subjective truth is formed through belief and belief can be broken into 2 categories."logical faith" and "blind faith". Logical faith is the faith in something which logic says should be true and blind faith believes no matter what logic says.

Most science and philosophy - Logical Faith

Most religious dogma - Blind Faith

Believing objective truth or reality from a subjective perspective - Faith
headphonegut
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6/1/2011 5:15:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 4:46:13 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/1/2011 4:14:34 PM, headphonegut wrote:
[...] I got leprechauns in me

I tried to warn you, you have to get badger, he is irish.

He's drunk all the time though he could cut in the wrong place :( and doesn't merda have red hair isn't that of Irish descent? I should call him
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
CosmicAlfonzo
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6/1/2011 5:19:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 5:08:24 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/1/2011 4:21:34 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
An objective truth is, by definition completely true.

There is no such thing as an objective half truth. If it is a half truth, it isn't objective.

It's only have true as far as subjective truth is concerned. We all live in subjective realities with subjective definitions of what is objectively true. All subjective truth is formed through belief and belief can be broken into 2 categories."logical faith" and "blind faith". Logical faith is the faith in something which logic says should be true and blind faith believes no matter what logic says.

Most science and philosophy - Logical Faith

Most religious dogma - Blind Faith

Believing objective truth or reality from a subjective perspective - Faith

Ok, so you aren't even really talking about objective truth then, you are talking about subjectivity.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Justin_Chains
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6/1/2011 5:34:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 5:19:17 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/1/2011 5:08:24 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/1/2011 4:21:34 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
An objective truth is, by definition completely true.

There is no such thing as an objective half truth. If it is a half truth, it isn't objective.

It's only have true as far as subjective truth is concerned. We all live in subjective realities with subjective definitions of what is objectively true. All subjective truth is formed through belief and belief can be broken into 2 categories."logical faith" and "blind faith". Logical faith is the faith in something which logic says should be true and blind faith believes no matter what logic says.

Most science and philosophy - Logical Faith

Most religious dogma - Blind Faith

Believing objective truth or reality from a subjective perspective - Faith


Ok, so you aren't even really talking about objective truth then, you are talking about subjectivity.

Everything we will ever try to defend as objective is only subjective in our reality because our reality is subjective. Objective information changes into subjective information once it enters subjective reality. Subjective reality is all we can ever know because life is a subjective reality.

We can never actually know objective truth, until we cease to be subjective... Once this happens thought ceases to exist and we know nothing.

Subjective reality and objective reality cannot perceive each other.

There is no clear agreed upon definition of objective truth, but most accepted is the meaning of truth existing outside the mind or outside of subjective reality.

It is not the same as actuality, because actuality would have to include both subjective and objective realities.

Objective truth - truth existing of all objects that are without consciousness.

Subjective truth - truth existing of all objects that are with consciousness.

Actual truth - truth existing in actuality; including both conscious and unconscious truths.

This is how I would define it more clearly.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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6/1/2011 6:29:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/31/2011 9:37:43 PM, Rockylightning wrote:

To conclude, dreams are a testament to the fact that we can exist in (and be completely oblivious to) a reality with contradictions and logical flaws. Alternate realities opens the door for different styles of logic to exist. These styles of logic, though would appear irrational in our world, would be completely fine outside. This gives God a leg to stand on because a different reality may be able to support an omnipotent, omniscient, all perfect being.

I've yet to really read this, and I will because it sounds interesting, but :
- As Cody said, the Bible complicates things. These arguments are all fine and dandy until you actually open the Bible and find all the scientific, historic inaccuracies, moral reprehensibilities (is that a word?), etc. It's not irrelevant to bring that up because most every case for God makes the case for the Biblical God and not some random deity, I think. So it's very important to differentiate between theistic and deistic arguments.

- More importantly, can't you make the same case for literally any impossibility at all.....?
Justin_Chains
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6/1/2011 6:46:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 6:16:00 PM, headphonegut wrote:
The phrase 2+2=4 comes to mind

I could break this down... But it would be very exhausting. Your phrase is still held true by subjective reality and subjective mathematical logic. You CANNOT know what exists outside of your own subjective reality or perception.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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6/1/2011 6:47:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 3:56:34 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
What is a "psychic pathway"? What is a "psychic attack"? What do you think "psychic" means?

http://pokemondb.net...

More evidence that pokemon is demonic.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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6/1/2011 7:52:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/1/2011 6:46:34 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 6/1/2011 6:16:00 PM, headphonegut wrote:
The phrase 2+2=4 comes to mind

I could break this down... But it would be very exhausting. Your phrase is still held true by subjective reality and subjective mathematical logic. You CANNOT know what exists outside of your own subjective reality or perception.

Exactly. As I briefly noted in my post, a different realities are defined as having different fundamental laws than ours. Rather than different universes, which are just bubbles of matter operating by the same laws.